Roundabouts

On 31/01/2012 08:39, Bruce wrote:

Ian wrote:
wrote:
If you follow the link given ...
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070338
... the image above Clause 186 shows what is now routinely taught.

Yes, you make some valid points. I have no problems with using either
lane for straight on where allowed, prudent, and readily anticipated by
others.


I think you missed the point, that what is now taught to learner
drivers is to use only the left lane when going straight on, and that
using the right lane, as older drivers are accustomed to, is going to
cause problems with younger drivers who have been taught that the only
lane that should be used for going straight on is the left lane.

That current teaching (if it is taught) is stupid. It reduces two-lane
dual-carriageways to a single lane in either direction just where capacity is
needed most.

If it were taught now (and I'm not convinced of that), I would make a point
of ignoring it and of continuing to drive as I was taught in the days when
learner drivers were made aware that making reasonable progress was a
requirement in order to pass the test and to drive properly thereafter.

On 31/01/2012 11:50, Neil Williams wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:39 am, wrote:

What *would* make sense is for older drivers, including you, to drive
in the same way that has been taught to learners for some years, is
expected in driving tests (and indeed any alternative approach may
contribute towards a failure) and is clearly indicated in the figure
above Clause 186 in the Highway Code. To do otherwise introduces
additional, unnecessary risk of a collision.

Maybe I'm a hybrid of old and new.

My view for straight on has tended to be...
1. If it's a dual carriageway, either lane is acceptable.

Correct.

And once traffic flow is above a certain de minimis value, using only the NS
lane will reduce the junction's capacity for no good reason.

Neil Williams wrote:

On Jan 31, 9:39*am, Bruce wrote:

Remember that ignorance of the current rules of the road (because they
have changed since you passed your test) is no excuse.

Don't think my posting worked so I'll try again.


I understood perfectly what you were saying. I just disagree.


I must be a hybrid of both types of driver.

IMO the best approach to dealing with both situations is to treat
going straight on on a single carriageway from the right lane as an
overtake - i.e. it is up to you, not the driver on the left, to ensure
you have enough space to safely pull in at your exit, and if there
isn't to drop behind the car you were attempting to "overtake" instead
of trying to cut in front of it. In a sense it is an overtake, as
there's no good reason to go straight on from the right lane if the
left lane is completely clear.

On a dual carriageway, I'd say you can go straight on from either lane
so long as you exit the roundabout in the lane you entered it (i.e.
left lane = straight on, into left lane, right lane = straight on,
into right lane). But in doing so beware of muppets turning right
from the left lane. Normally on major dual carriageways the lanes are
marked up to this effect.


I will give you an example of where that is not a good idea. It's
within the boundaries of Milton Keynes so you may know it; it is the
roundabout on the A5 to the south of MK where it joins the southern
continuation of the V10 Brickhill Street, the A4146 to Aylesbury and
the southern continuation of the V4 Watling Street (old A5).

If you know this junction well, you will know that it is an accident
black spot. It is heavily congested in both rush hours, tidally, with
northbound traffic congested in the morning rush and southbound in the
evening. So poor lane discipline is complicated by aggressive driving
and people using hard acceleration to take advantage of gaps in
traffic.

Traffic from Aylesbury using the A4146 single carriageway splits into
two lanes on the approach. The lanes are not marked.

http://binged.it/xEqcLb
http://g.co/maps/6khn4

If turning left into the V4 Watling Street (1st exit) there is no
doubt; you should use the inside lane.

If taking the second exit onto the A5, which is still well to the left
of straight on, you should use the first lane. But some people use
the outside lane, as indeed they do if coming from Dunstable on the
A5.

If taking the third exit onto the V10 Brickhill Street, that is as
near to straight on as it gets, so you should use the inside lane. Of
course that risks conflict with drivers who are using the outside lane
and turning onto the northbound A5.

However, using the outside lane invites conflict with drivers from
Aylesbury using the left lane who are also heading for the V10, and
with drivers from V4 Watling Street heading for the southbound A5.

Similar conflicts occur when entering the roundabout from the V10
Brickhill Street, so no point listing them.

In the last two years, I have witnessed four collisions here. Two
were at the exit onto the A5 northbound, one at the exit onto the V10,
and one at the exit onto the A5 southbound. All of them caused by
people exiting the roundabout from the outside lane.

There have been numerous near misses. Only once have I seen someone
turning right using the inside lane. Obviously there are some people
who do that but it is mercifully rare, and the major risk of collision
is caused by people using the outside lane. If drivers adhered to the
recommendations shown in the Highway Code, in particular using the
left lane for going straight on, the risk of collision would be
significantly reduced.

It was as a result of experience at this junction and at one in
Aylesbury that I researched the guidance on which lane or lanes can be
used at a roundabout. I looked at the Highway Code and talked to my
cousin, a driving instructor, and a mutual friend who is a driving
test examiner. As a result of this research, I now always use the
left lane when going straight on.

On 31/01/2012 12:28, Mortimer wrote:

"Ian Smith" wrote:

Yes, you make some valid points. I have no problems with using either
lane for straight on where allowed, prudent, and readily anticipated by
others. But it was my understanding that the original post criticised
those who ignore/disobey lane markings or signs, and thus invite conflict
in doing so.

I would always use the left lane on a single-lane-in-each-direction road if I
was going straight on, in the absence of any instructions to the contrary.

On a "single-lane-in-each-direction road", what other lane *could* you use
(leaving aside the "wrong" side of the road)?

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:27:21 +0000, Bruce
wrote:
I understood perfectly what you were saying. I just disagree.

I know, I got an error when posting so thought I'd lost it, so
retyped it.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:27:21 +0000, Bruce
wrote:
It was as a result of experience at this junction

Having read what you posted, I would consider coming from the A4146
onto the A5 north as a left turn, and would say the left lane is
correct as you do.

I see your point about the other conflicts, though. I think that
roundabout should really be lane-marked (not wrongly as per the one 2
junctions closer to MK which was corrected some time later), as well
as many others with more than 4 exits. In the meantime that is a
roundabout where avoiding driving directly alongside another vehicle
is a very good idea.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:28:41 +0000, JNugent
wrote:
On a "single-lane-in-each-direction road", what other lane *could*
you use
(leaving aside the "wrong" side of the road)?

Many of them split into 2 just for the roundabout. Almost all in MK
split into 3, one for each direction (in the case of single
carriageways).

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

Neil Williams wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:27:21 +0000, Bruce
wrote:
It was as a result of experience at this junction

Having read what you posted, I would consider coming from the A4146
onto the A5 north as a left turn, and would say the left lane is
correct as you do.

I see your point about the other conflicts, though. I think that
roundabout should really be lane-marked (not wrongly as per the one 2
junctions closer to MK which was corrected some time later), as well
as many others with more than 4 exits.


I agree. Spiral markings would be a good idea, where one or more
lanes disappear off at each exit.


In the meantime that is a
roundabout where avoiding driving directly alongside another vehicle
is a very good idea.


I totally agree - defensive driving is essential. But it's not easy
because so many people drive very aggressively at this location.

For years, there has been a scheme on the Highways Agency's shelves to
make this into a grade separated junction, which would help. The
scheme is occasionally dusted off, looked at then put back on the
shelf.

And as I said to Jeremy, the relevant Rules in the Highway Code need
to be clear and unambiguous.

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
.net...
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:57:26 +0000, The Real Doctor
wrote:
whether to annoy people by moving into the correct lane or whether
to
annoy people by taking the wrong lane onto the roundabout.

Or if in doubt approach in the right hand lane and go round 1.5 times,
which shouldn't really annoy anyone.

Roundabout near here says "Use both lanes for A27".

So I do.

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:34:28 -0000, Ian put finger to keyboard and typed:


"Neil Williams" wrote in message
l.net...
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:57:26 +0000, The Real Doctor
wrote:
whether to annoy people by moving into the correct lane or whether
to
annoy people by taking the wrong lane onto the roundabout.

Or if in doubt approach in the right hand lane and go round 1.5 times,
which shouldn't really annoy anyone.

Roundabout near here says "Use both lanes for A27".

So I do.

Simultaneously, or alternately?

Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk