#31
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Helmet News
On 18-06-18 04:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
In reality, brain injury while bicycling is very rare. It's more common while traveling as a pedestrian. And helmets have not caused any significant improvement. They cause negligible improvement in a mostly imaginary problem. My helmet story: In 1989 I was stopped at a traffic light to the right of tram tracks that were wet from rain. As the light turned green I wanted to turn left. The front wheel slipped on the wet track and I came crashing down hard on the road/other track, breaking my left collar bone*. Also my head came crashing down onto the pavement or other track, hitting on the side. At that time probably less than one in a thousand riders wore a helmet in Zurich, and I had bought my Bell helmet while on vacation in the USA. I still clearly remember how the helmet took up the shock of the blow, and am convinced that without it I would have had at least a concussion and quite possibly ended up as a vegetable in a nursing home for the rest of my life. It's true that nowadays, with more experience from riding every day all these years, I would have realized that the tracks would be slippery and would have crossed them more carefully. But still I always where a helmet when riding. Ned * Further experience from that accident: If you are going to break a bone, the collar bone may be the best bone to break. You don't need a cast, and it generally heals well. Disadvantage: It's intensely painful. |
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#32
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Helmet News
On 18/06/2018 1:45 PM, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 18-06-18 04:11, Frank Krygowski wrote: In reality, brain injury while bicycling is very rare. It's more common while traveling as a pedestrian. And helmets have not caused any significant improvement. They cause negligible improvement in a mostly imaginary problem. My helmet story: In 1989 I was stopped at a traffic light to the right of tram tracks that were wet from rain. As the light turned green I wanted to turn left. The front wheel slipped on the wet track and I came crashing down hard on the road/other track, breaking my left collar bone*. Also my head came crashing down onto the pavement or other track, hitting on the side. At that time probably less than one in a thousand riders wore a helmet in Zurich, and I had bought my Bell helmet while on vacation in the USA. I still clearly remember how the helmet took up the shock of the blow, and am convinced that without it I would have had at least a concussion and quite possibly ended up as a vegetable in a nursing home for the rest of my life. It's true that nowadays, with more experience from riding every day all these years, IĀ* would have realized that the tracks would be slippery and would have crossed them more carefully. But still I always where a helmet when riding. Ned * Further experience from that accident: If you are going to break a bone, the collar bone may be the best bone to break. You don't need a cast, and it generally heals well. Disadvantage: It's intensely painful. Here we go... |
#33
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Helmet News
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote: On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: I avoid wrecking. ... I believe in risk compensation. Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash? It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow - but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would have said it saved my life.) I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who may turn left across my path, etc. I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and that proves helmets are great." Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists. -- Jay Beattie. |
#34
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Helmet News
On 6/18/2018 1:45 PM, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 18-06-18 04:11, Frank Krygowski wrote: In reality, brain injury while bicycling is very rare. It's more common while traveling as a pedestrian. And helmets have not caused any significant improvement. They cause negligible improvement in a mostly imaginary problem. My helmet story: In 1989 I was stopped at a traffic light to the right of tram tracks that were wet from rain. As the light turned green I wanted to turn left. The front wheel slipped on the wet track and I came crashing down hard on the road/other track, breaking my left collar bone*. Also my head came crashing down onto the pavement or other track, hitting on the side. At that time probably less than one in a thousand riders wore a helmet in Zurich, and I had bought my Bell helmet while on vacation in the USA. I still clearly remember how the helmet took up the shock of the blow, and am convinced that without it I would have had at least a concussion and quite possibly ended up as a vegetable in a nursing home for the rest of my life. It's true that nowadays, with more experience from riding every day all these years, IĀ* would have realized that the tracks would be slippery and would have crossed them more carefully. But still I always where a helmet when riding. Ned Yep. "My helmet saved me" stories are a dime a dozen. Yet there is no corresponding reduction in cycling fatalities nor concussion counts. I'm not saying that no helmet has ever reduced injuries. But adding an inch of fragile styrofoam to one's head is very likely to produce false claims of benefit. Again, if my 16 year old self had worn a helmet on that icy day, it would have certainly cracked. Most helmet proponents would have said it prevented serious injury. But there was no serious injury at all - nothing beyond "Ouch, that really hurt!" We once had a tandem crash. It was at low speed, when the fork blades suddenly broke off upon hitting a pothole, because the custom builder was in a rush to finish the bike before his honeymoon. Without telling me, he substituted thin track-gage forks whose metal was one third that of the proper tandem gage forks. Anyway, my wife cracked the super-thin plastic shell on the helmet. I had to buy her a new one just to prevent the "See? It saved her life!" stories. And of course, the manufacturer says the magic leaks out if you're in any crash at all. And again, even if it _were_ proven that styrofoam helmets are marvelously protective, why should they be promoted only for the group that makes up just 0.6% of America's TBI fatalities? Pedestrians' counts are far higher, and are higher on a per-mile basis. Motorists' counts are also far higher, and car helmets would be far, far cheaper than explosive airbags. Society's medical costs would be reduced far more if the funny hats were applied to the groups with the biggest injury counts. Instead, they've applied a myth of brain injury to a very safe and beneficial activity. And cyclists are keen to promote the "Danger! Danger!" myth. Go figure. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#35
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Helmet News
On 6/18/2018 1:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote: On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: I avoid wrecking. ... I believe in risk compensation. Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash? It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow - but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would have said it saved my life.) I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who may turn left across my path, etc. I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and that proves helmets are great." Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists. -- Jay Beattie. Right. After a lifetime of road rash, stitches and a nice selection of screws and hardware[1] I qualify as an expert, as much as anyone. Bad things happen to good riders. Some were by my error, either by omission or commission, but some were not avoidable in any practical sense. And there you have life's randomness. Chaos doesn't emote. Yes, critical analysis of riding helps. That and experience are good, but not sufficient to avoid all injuries. Yes, at the margin helmets do something[2], but are not a panacea either. [1] some neat scars; great conversation starter [2] not interested in that argument today -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#36
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Helmet News
On 6/18/2018 2:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote: On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: I avoid wrecking. ... I believe in risk compensation. Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash? It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow - but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would have said it saved my life.) I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who may turn left across my path, etc. I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and that proves helmets are great." Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists. Yes, I understand. None of those were foreseeable. It's just normal behavior to fly through wet descents, to be unaware of freezing temperatures, to test the limits of new tires' traction, to push to the limit in races... Look, if I were to enter races, I'd wear a helmet. That's true for bike racing, motorcycle racing or car racing. That's beside the point. (Although the two road races I entered way back when featured no helmets. Same was true for most races around the world. Oh, the humanity!) And I suppose if you really have a compulsion to explore the limits of traction, it might be reasonable to wear a helmet, although some very smart people have disagreed. https://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglight/5460047009 But I've always been a pretty careful rider, and it's paid off. YMMV. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#37
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Helmet News
Frank Krygowski wrote:
In fact, recent data showed an _increase_ of over 60% in bike-related concussions during the time when American helmet use greatly increased. Perhaps other things changed during that time as well? More people riding, traffic getting even more out of hand, and so on. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#38
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Helmet News
On 6/18/2018 3:32 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote: In fact, recent data showed an _increase_ of over 60% in bike-related concussions during the time when American helmet use greatly increased. Perhaps other things changed during that time as well? More people riding, traffic getting even more out of hand, and so on. I've seen no evidence. The popularity of riding goes up and down with fashion, but there's been no 60% increase. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...t_popular.html Regarding helmet use and brain injury: Rare as it is, the needle isn't even moving in the right direction. How many excuses for the helmet mania can people make? It should be last on the list of tactics to improve bicycling. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#39
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Helmet News
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 12:22:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 2:49 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote: On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: I avoid wrecking. ... I believe in risk compensation. Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash? It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow - but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would have said it saved my life.) I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who may turn left across my path, etc. I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and that proves helmets are great." Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists. Yes, I understand. None of those were foreseeable. It's just normal behavior to fly through wet descents, to be unaware of freezing temperatures, to test the limits of new tires' traction, to push to the limit in races... How dramatic! All the sudden I'm flying through wet corners and pushing it to the limit in races! I should have my own YouTube channel. The fact is that ordinary people just riding along can get whacked or crash.. Black ice is invisible and localized, and riding in temperatures below 32F is SOP for year-round commuters in the PNW. Race crashes can occur when people are bunched up and not pushing it to the limit -- or a dog runs into the field or someone hits road furniture or railroad tracks. Crashes are not confined to the finishing sprint or hair-raising descents. I live in a wet environment that is hilly and has bad roads. People can crash just riding along -- even the mayor. https://bikeportland.org/2017/11/16/...e-crash-254716 And people can get whacked by cars or other bicyclists for no reason. **** happens -- except to you, which is amazing. You should should have your own shrine, right along with the cheese sandwich with the image of the Virgin Mary. -- Jay Beattie. |
#40
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Helmet News
On 6/18/2018 7:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 12:22:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2018 2:49 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote: On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: I avoid wrecking. ... I believe in risk compensation. Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash? It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow - but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would have said it saved my life.) I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who may turn left across my path, etc. I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and that proves helmets are great." Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists. Yes, I understand. None of those were foreseeable. It's just normal behavior to fly through wet descents, to be unaware of freezing temperatures, to test the limits of new tires' traction, to push to the limit in races... How dramatic! All the sudden I'm flying through wet corners and pushing it to the limit in races! I should have my own YouTube channel. The fact is that ordinary people just riding along can get whacked or crash. Black ice is invisible and localized, and riding in temperatures below 32F is SOP for year-round commuters in the PNW. Race crashes can occur when people are bunched up and not pushing it to the limit -- or a dog runs into the field or someone hits road furniture or railroad tracks. Crashes are not confined to the finishing sprint or hair-raising descents. I live in a wet environment that is hilly and has bad roads. People can crash just riding along -- even the mayor. https://bikeportland.org/2017/11/16/...e-crash-254716 And people can get whacked by cars or other bicyclists for no reason. **** happens -- except to you, which is amazing. You should should have your own shrine, right along with the cheese sandwich with the image of the Virgin Mary. -- Jay Beattie. "or a dog runs into the field" Dog indeed. Joachim Agostinho finished his career, and life, leading with just meters to the finish line when a dog did him in. Nothing in 'Effective Cycling' or any amount of prudence would have helped him. He was among the oldest Pros at the time, with as much riding experience as anyone on earth. In a similar vein, my ex employee Carl Zach, a fine young man and a schoolteacher, was leading a race, his mother watching at the finish line, when an ambulance, not on call, sailed around a barricade and across the course and killed him despite his helmet. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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