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My second encounter with the AFP



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 17th 11, 05:18 PM posted to aus.bicycle
Geoff Lock[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 475
Default My second encounter with the AFP

Some weeks ago, I posted my experience with the Australian Federal
Police whilst riding along Qantas Drive at Kingsford_Smith Airport.

To save everybody digging thru the archives, that time, the AFP guys
indicated (from inside their vehicle) that I should be using the
cycleway adjacent to the road instead of being in the middle of the road
itself. As they did not appear to press the issue, I continued riding in
the middle of the lane at that time.

Today, at about 1615, I had my second encounter and this time, it may be
a bit more serious as another lot of AFP pulled me over (lights and
sirens), severely admonished me verbally (I was in the middle of the
lane and holding up traffic), took my details and informed me that they
will contact me if there was going to be further action taken. There was
a lot more to this obviously but I am just giving the salient bits.

During the admonishment from the AFP goon, sorry, I meant officer, I
just stood my ground, quoted my usual spiel about "the RTA Handbook for
Road Users", "laws in the state of NSW", my right to a whole lane, my
roadworthy vehicle, my PPE, etc etc.

The incident occurred at around the same spot as last time and I am
beginning to feel paranoid about the fact that either someone here is
connected to the AFP OR the AFP is monitoring this newsgroup

As soon as I could, I wrote down everything that happened including the
name of the AFP goon, eeeerrrr... officer, who attempted to bully me
into riding on the left of the lane

His mate seemed alright cos as they were leaving, his mate said words to
the effect, "OK man".

Perhaps the most puzzling aspect was their claim that they were also NSW
Police! I could only see AFP badges on their uniforms.

In an attempt to be conciliatory, I did tell them that I had no problems
with them patrolling the perimeter of the airport and stopping me to ask
me for my ID. That was when I mentioned their jurisdiction outside of
Federal territory and their counter claim of being also NSW Police. I am
guessing that is bull****.

A coupla mins after I rode off in my usual manner, a NSW cop car went
past me without a second glance
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  #2  
Old January 17th 11, 10:59 PM posted to aus.bicycle
Rob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 107
Default My second encounter with the AFP

On 18/01/2011 3:18 AM, Geoff Lock wrote:
Some weeks ago, I posted my experience with the Australian Federal
Police whilst riding along Qantas Drive at Kingsford_Smith Airport.

To save everybody digging thru the archives, that time, the AFP guys
indicated (from inside their vehicle) that I should be using the
cycleway adjacent to the road instead of being in the middle of the road
itself. As they did not appear to press the issue, I continued riding in
the middle of the lane at that time.

Today, at about 1615, I had my second encounter and this time, it may be
a bit more serious as another lot of AFP pulled me over (lights and
sirens), severely admonished me verbally (I was in the middle of the
lane and holding up traffic), took my details and informed me that they
will contact me if there was going to be further action taken. There was
a lot more to this obviously but I am just giving the salient bits.

During the admonishment from the AFP goon, sorry, I meant officer, I
just stood my ground, quoted my usual spiel about "the RTA Handbook for
Road Users", "laws in the state of NSW", my right to a whole lane, my
roadworthy vehicle, my PPE, etc etc.

The incident occurred at around the same spot as last time and I am
beginning to feel paranoid about the fact that either someone here is
connected to the AFP OR the AFP is monitoring this newsgroup

As soon as I could, I wrote down everything that happened including the
name of the AFP goon, eeeerrrr... officer, who attempted to bully me
into riding on the left of the lane

His mate seemed alright cos as they were leaving, his mate said words to
the effect, "OK man".

Perhaps the most puzzling aspect was their claim that they were also NSW
Police! I could only see AFP badges on their uniforms.

In an attempt to be conciliatory, I did tell them that I had no problems
with them patrolling the perimeter of the airport and stopping me to ask
me for my ID. That was when I mentioned their jurisdiction outside of
Federal territory and their counter claim of being also NSW Police. I am
guessing that is bull****.

A coupla mins after I rode off in my usual manner, a NSW cop car went
past me without a second glance


They have dual policemanship where as they can follow over their
boundary onto NSW property. But their primary role is Commonwealth property.

Did you ask if they will take personal responsibility if you are struck
by another motorist whilst following their directive.
  #3  
Old January 18th 11, 04:43 AM posted to aus.bicycle
Geoff Lock[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 475
Default My second encounter with the AFP

On 18/01/2011 8:59 AM, Rob wrote:
On 18/01/2011 3:18 AM, Geoff Lock wrote:
Some weeks ago, I posted my experience with the Australian Federal
Police whilst riding along Qantas Drive at Kingsford_Smith Airport.


Perhaps the most puzzling aspect was their claim that they were also NSW
Police! I could only see AFP badges on their uniforms.


They have dual policemanship where as they can follow over their
boundary onto NSW property. But their primary role is Commonwealth
property.


Oh, I didn't know that. OK, so they were not telling porkies.

Used to be that the AFP were only limited to Commonwealth grounds and
NSW Police to State boundaries - at least that was what I was told cos
years ago as a rabble rousing student at UNSW, we'd conduct noisy
protests at Sydney Airport, do the runner in our cars to the Uni grounds
and basically laughrd and poked our tongues out at the NSW coppers who
followed us there from the safety of Commonwealth property.

Obviously, in our naiveness, we never thought that the NSW coppers had
no real interest in apprehending us cos if they had wanted to do so, we
would have had been toast in the 20 minutes or so it took to get to the
Uni from the Airport along NSW roads Ah, the innocence of callow
youth {to paraphrase Mentor from the Lensmen series by EE Doc Smith}

Did you ask if they will take personal responsibility if you are struck
by another motorist whilst following their directive.


Actually, I told him pointblank I was NOT going to follow his directive
I just looked him in the eye and repeated my "RTA Handbook" and the
"laws in the state of NSW" mantras.

On an aside, I think it is now 6 to me and nil to coppers. It would have
been 7-0 if I counted that 1st encounter with the AFP but as I did not
actually stop the bike I did not count that

I have been wondering what would happen if I did get a fine. I would
obviously contest that fine and there is a good chance the fine will get
thrown out of court BUT can I get compensation for wrongful "whatever"
and trauma and hurt and stuff like that?? Cos if I can sue for
damages, next time, I'll seriously think about goading them into giving
me a fine I could do with a new carbon fibre bike or three, you know
  #4  
Old January 18th 11, 06:12 AM posted to aus.bicycle
Ken & Stace[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default My second encounter with the AFP

Yes Geoff, it is legal to ride in the middle of the lane, but is what you
are doing safe for both you and the people around you? What about people in
the cars as a result of people having to change lanes etc to get around you.
Your not talking about a back street here, your talking about a major road.
It's not that wideand has heavy vehicles. Combine that with people running
late for their flight.

It is also legal for me to walk past a bunch of bikies with my friends and
tell the bikies they are as thick as two short planks, get a haircut and get
a job, but to do this would be foolish. What would be result of my actions?

Ken


"Geoff Lock" glock@home wrote in message
...
On 18/01/2011 8:59 AM, Rob wrote:
On 18/01/2011 3:18 AM, Geoff Lock wrote:
Some weeks ago, I posted my experience with the Australian Federal
Police whilst riding along Qantas Drive at Kingsford_Smith Airport.


Perhaps the most puzzling aspect was their claim that they were also NSW
Police! I could only see AFP badges on their uniforms.


They have dual policemanship where as they can follow over their
boundary onto NSW property. But their primary role is Commonwealth
property.


Oh, I didn't know that. OK, so they were not telling porkies.

Used to be that the AFP were only limited to Commonwealth grounds and NSW
Police to State boundaries - at least that was what I was told cos years
ago as a rabble rousing student at UNSW, we'd conduct noisy protests at
Sydney Airport, do the runner in our cars to the Uni grounds and basically
laughrd and poked our tongues out at the NSW coppers who followed us there
from the safety of Commonwealth property.

Obviously, in our naiveness, we never thought that the NSW coppers had no
real interest in apprehending us cos if they had wanted to do so, we would
have had been toast in the 20 minutes or so it took to get to the Uni from
the Airport along NSW roads Ah, the innocence of callow youth {to
paraphrase Mentor from the Lensmen series by EE Doc Smith}

Did you ask if they will take personal responsibility if you are struck
by another motorist whilst following their directive.


Actually, I told him pointblank I was NOT going to follow his directive
I just looked him in the eye and repeated my "RTA Handbook" and the "laws
in the state of NSW" mantras.

On an aside, I think it is now 6 to me and nil to coppers. It would have
been 7-0 if I counted that 1st encounter with the AFP but as I did not
actually stop the bike I did not count that

I have been wondering what would happen if I did get a fine. I would
obviously contest that fine and there is a good chance the fine will get
thrown out of court BUT can I get compensation for wrongful "whatever" and
trauma and hurt and stuff like that?? Cos if I can sue for damages,
next time, I'll seriously think about goading them into giving me a fine
I could do with a new carbon fibre bike or three, you know



  #5  
Old January 18th 11, 07:43 AM posted to aus.bicycle
Zebee Johnstone
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,960
Default My second encounter with the AFP

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:12:46 +1100
Ken & Stace wrote:
Yes Geoff, it is legal to ride in the middle of the lane, but is what you
are doing safe for both you and the people around you? What about people in
the cars as a result of people having to change lanes etc to get around you.
Your not talking about a back street here, your talking about a major road.
It's not that wideand has heavy vehicles. Combine that with people running
late for their flight.


If they can't pass, they shouldn't. If they can, they should.

If Geoff was a truck would you also complain? If peopel manage to sit
behind trucks till safe to pass, are you saying they can't do it
behind a bike, even though the vision is better?


If not, what *are* you saying about "people in their cars"? are you
saying that drivers on airport drive are not capable of changing
lanes?

I can't work out what the problem is.

People who are late for flights are risking trouble anyway.
Breakdowns, slow trucks, crashes. THe problem is not a slow vehicle,
is it being late for the flight,

If someone is late for a flight, are they jsutified in doing 110kmh in
a 70 zone?

If they are not, where is the difference between that, and the similar
time difference in waiting to change lanes on a multi lane road? 110
will get them to the flight on time, obeying the law means they miss.

Whose fault is the miss?


It is also legal for me to walk past a bunch of bikies with my friends and
tell the bikies they are as thick as two short planks, get a haircut and get
a job, but to do this would be foolish. What would be result of my actions?


In my experience, you will be laughed at.

They won't bother beating you up, because your disrespect isn't
important to them. You are a "citizen", and therefore irrelevant.

Try another analogy eh?

Howabout this one. "If I cross at a crosswalk on a road someone might
be late for work, and I get hit, well whose fault is that? Has to be
mine because asseting the road rules in front of impatient people is
too dangerous and their impatience must override all else. Because
that's how they view the world and I must not query that because I
might get hurt doing so."


Zebee
  #6  
Old January 18th 11, 09:25 AM posted to aus.bicycle
Ken & Stace[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default My second encounter with the AFP


"Zebee Johnstone" wrote in message
...
In aus.bicycle on Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:12:46 +1100
Ken & Stace wrote:
Yes Geoff, it is legal to ride in the middle of the lane, but is what you
are doing safe for both you and the people around you? What about people
in
the cars as a result of people having to change lanes etc to get around
you.
Your not talking about a back street here, your talking about a major
road.
It's not that wideand has heavy vehicles. Combine that with people
running
late for their flight.


If they can't pass, they shouldn't. If they can, they should.

If Geoff was a truck would you also complain? If peopel manage to sit
behind trucks till safe to pass, are you saying they can't do it
behind a bike, even though the vision is better?


I would complain if the speed limit was 80KMH and the truck is sitting on 30
and there was room for me to get past if the truck just moved over a bit.


If not, what *are* you saying about "people in their cars"? are you
saying that drivers on airport drive are not capable of changing
lanes?


No I'm saying it's a heavy traffic area and if a driver gets caught behind a
slower vehicle they may take risks to get around said slow vehicle,
especially if the slow vehicle is taking up a full lane when, just by moving
over to the left a bit, the driver could get past.
I say people in their cars the same as I would say "a person on a bike" .

I can't work out what the problem is.


I don't see the point of "It's legal for me to do something therefore I'm
gonna do it and stuff the rest of you" The federal police wouldn't have got
involved if all was rosy. What was the traffic situation? Geoff has not
enlightened us on that.

A bit of consideration for others doesn't hurt. I'm sorry if I have misread
Geoff's attitude, but going by the "mantra" I think not. It may be legal,
but it is not safe for either Geoff or the people in the cars around him.

People who are late for flights are risking trouble anyway.
Breakdowns, slow trucks, crashes. THe problem is not a slow vehicle,
is it being late for the flight,

If someone is late for a flight, are they jsutified in doing 110kmh in
a 70 zone?


No you can never justify 110 in a 70 zone, You put the speed the driver was
doing at 110KMH. Not me. But a driver who is running late will get
frustrated and take risks they wouldn't normally take.

If they are not, where is the difference between that, and the similar
time difference in waiting to change lanes on a multi lane road? 110
will get them to the flight on time, obeying the law means they miss.

Whose fault is the miss?


The person who was late for their flight , however If they hit Geoff, it's
Geoff who will come off second best.
But as you said, ther are breakdowns slow traffic and crashes that make a
person late when they may have left home on time.

It is also legal for me to walk past a bunch of bikies with my friends
and
tell the bikies they are as thick as two short planks, get a haircut and
get
a job, but to do this would be foolish. What would be result of my
actions?


In my experience, you will be laughed at.

They won't bother beating you up, because your disrespect isn't
important to them. You are a "citizen", and therefore irrelevant.


You know some nice bikies.

Try another analogy eh?

Howabout this one. "If I cross at a crosswalk on a road someone might
be late for work, and I get hit, well whose fault is that? Has to be
mine because asseting the road rules in front of impatient people is
too dangerous and their impatience must override all else. Because
that's how they view the world and I must not query that because I
might get hurt doing so."


If I stand 4 metres back from the crossing and talk to friend and at the end
of the conversation suddenly run across the crossing without looking and get
hit legally the driver is at fault, but if it goes to court it may be
decided I didn't take due care.

How about this one: At Glenbrook just past the M4 the speed limit is 80KMH.
I can legally go through there at that speed anytime I want. However from
5.00pm onward, there are a large number of cars, bikes and buses turning in
and out of Ross Street and the petrol station, therefore it is prudent to
slow down to 60 at that time of the day.

Zebee



Ken


  #7  
Old January 18th 11, 09:48 AM posted to aus.bicycle
Rob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 107
Default My second encounter with the AFP

On 18/01/2011 2:43 PM, Geoff Lock wrote:
On 18/01/2011 8:59 AM, Rob wrote:
by another motorist whilst following their directive.


Actually, I told him pointblank I was NOT going to follow his directive
I just looked him in the eye and repeated my "RTA Handbook" and the
"laws in the state of NSW" mantras.


In that little book there is something that tells you how far from the
curve you should be at what speed.

like 80 and over should keep to the left lane unless overtaking.

under a certain speed within so much of the curve.
  #8  
Old January 18th 11, 09:49 AM posted to aus.bicycle
John Tserkezis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 204
Default My second encounter with the AFP

Ken & Stace wrote:

I would complain if the speed limit was 80KMH and the truck is sitting on 30
and there was room for me to get past if the truck just moved over a bit.


So would I. And what the truck is doing is ENTIRELY legal.
Don't like the law? Stop whining and do something about it.

If not, what *are* you saying about "people in their cars"? are you
saying that drivers on airport drive are not capable of changing
lanes?


No I'm saying it's a heavy traffic area and if a driver gets caught behind a
slower vehicle they may take risks to get around said slow vehicle,
especially if the slow vehicle is taking up a full lane when, just by moving
over to the left a bit, the driver could get past.
I say people in their cars the same as I would say "a person on a bike" .


Just like a slow bicycle is NOT the same as a slow truck?
Your contradicting yourself there...

I can't work out what the problem is.


I don't see the point of "It's legal for me to do something therefore I'm
gonna do it and stuff the rest of you" The federal police wouldn't have got
involved if all was rosy. What was the traffic situation? Geoff has not
enlightened us on that.


I'm sorry, were you expecting one cyclist to cause a holdup that was
worthy of something here? Nope. Only cars and trucks do that.

A bit of consideration for others doesn't hurt. I'm sorry if I have misread
Geoff's attitude, but going by the "mantra" I think not. It may be legal,
but it is not safe for either Geoff or the people in the cars around him.


Ah, so you've never spent any time on a bicycle then? We often said as
a requirement of obtaining a driver's licence, one should also spent a
bit of time on a bike first.
That'll put the fear of [insert favourite deity here] into you.

People who are late for flights are risking trouble anyway.
Breakdowns, slow trucks, crashes. THe problem is not a slow vehicle,
is it being late for the flight,

If someone is late for a flight, are they jsutified in doing 110kmh in
a 70 zone?


No you can never justify 110 in a 70 zone, You put the speed the driver was
doing at 110KMH. Not me. But a driver who is running late will get
frustrated and take risks they wouldn't normally take.


So you're saying it's mere "frustration" that makes people speed or do
otherwise stupid things?

The person who was late for their flight , however If they hit Geoff, it's
Geoff who will come off second best.
But as you said, ther are breakdowns slow traffic and crashes that make a
person late when they may have left home on time.


Boo Hoo don't cry for me Argentina. I was in the thick of it EVERY
FRIGGIN MORNING in peak hour. And it happens again at figgin night.
And if one of those morons in the traffic has an accident (the
inconsiderate prick) - they create one mother of a jam where no-one gets
home before midnight.

No really, if you don't like being held up that much, take the friggin
train. Then be sure to let me know how much fun THAT was...

In my experience, you will be laughed at.


They won't bother beating you up, because your disrespect isn't
important to them. You are a "citizen", and therefore irrelevant.


You know some nice bikies.


And you know NO bikies.

If I stand 4 metres back from the crossing and talk to friend and at the end
of the conversation suddenly run across the crossing without looking and get
hit legally the driver is at fault, but if it goes to court it may be
decided I didn't take due care.


Nope, that's lack of due care straight off the bat. Not that it'll
matter much to you, because you'll be lying in hospital. Or the morgue.

How about this one: At Glenbrook just past the M4 the speed limit is 80KMH.
I can legally go through there at that speed anytime I want. However from
5.00pm onward, there are a large number of cars, bikes and buses turning in
and out of Ross Street and the petrol station, therefore it is prudent to
slow down to 60 at that time of the day.


You really are clueless aren't you?

A speed limit sign is NOT a recommendation that you can actually drive
at that speed whenever you like.
It's a *limit*. You should drive to the conditions, while not
exceeding the specified limit.

Learn to read, use the internet, download the Australian Road Rules,
and READ them sometime. You might actually learn something.
--
I'm a pessimistic cynic. I'm never surprised and never disappointed.
  #9  
Old January 18th 11, 10:15 AM posted to aus.bicycle
Theo Bekkers[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 46
Default My second encounter with the AFP


"Ken & Stace" wrote
"Zebee Johnstone" wrote


If they can't pass, they shouldn't. If they can, they should.

If Geoff was a truck would you also complain? If peopel manage to sit
behind trucks till safe to pass, are you saying they can't do it
behind a bike, even though the vision is better?


I would complain if the speed limit was 80KMH and the truck is sitting on
30 and there was room for me to get past if the truck just moved over a
bit.


If the speed limit was 80km/h? You think this is a minimum speed limit?

If not, what *are* you saying about "people in their cars"? are you
saying that drivers on airport drive are not capable of changing
lanes?


No I'm saying it's a heavy traffic area and if a driver gets caught behind
a slower vehicle they may take risks to get around said slow vehicle,
especially if the slow vehicle is taking up a full lane when, just by
moving over to the left a bit, the driver could get past.
I say people in their cars the same as I would say "a person on a bike" .


I believe it is actually illegal to pass someone without fully getting out
of their lane, unless, of course, you, the passer, is also on a bicycle.

I can't work out what the problem is.


I don't see the point of "It's legal for me to do something therefore I'm
gonna do it and stuff the rest of you" The federal police wouldn't have
got involved if all was rosy. What was the traffic situation? Geoff has
not enlightened us on that.


Some people just like to exercise power they think they have. Particularly
people wearing uniforms. They generally back down very quickly if you are
aware of the laws and say so.

If someone is late for a flight, are they jsutified in doing 110kmh in
a 70 zone?


No you can never justify 110 in a 70 zone, You put the speed the driver
was doing at 110KMH. Not me. But a driver who is running late will get
frustrated and take risks they wouldn't normally take.


And somehow that is the cyclists/truck drivers problem?

Howabout this one. "If I cross at a crosswalk on a road someone might
be late for work, and I get hit, well whose fault is that? Has to be
mine because asseting the road rules in front of impatient people is
too dangerous and their impatience must override all else. Because
that's how they view the world and I must not query that because I
might get hurt doing so."


If I stand 4 metres back from the crossing and talk to friend and at the
end of the conversation suddenly run across the crossing without looking
and get hit legally the driver is at fault, but if it goes to court it may
be decided I didn't take due care.

How about this one: At Glenbrook just past the M4 the speed limit is
80KMH. I can legally go through there at that speed anytime I want.


No you can't, regardless of the posted speed limit you still have the onus
of due care.

Theo


  #10  
Old January 18th 11, 10:16 AM posted to aus.bicycle
John Tserkezis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 204
Default My second encounter with the AFP

Rob wrote:

In that little book there is something that tells you how far from the
curve you should be at what speed.
like 80 and over should keep to the left lane unless overtaking.
under a certain speed within so much of the curve.


Since you're quoting, could you also quote your source?

Not trying to be a smart arse, (ahem) no really, I want to know.

Would be nice if you if you could also quote the document, revision and
section number.

I've looked at the Australian Road Rules, the South Australian Road
Rules (only slightly modified from the ARR), and the amendments for
each. I don't have others on hand right now, but I'm not too worried.
--
My kingdom for a beer; half my beer for a woman.
 




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