Convert Hybrid to Touring bike

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 01:12:46 -0500 (EST),
(Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote:

From: (Jonathan*Kaplan)

Check out the new surly long haul
trucker. It is a real touring bike and the
frame/fork is going to sell for $400
range. The 54cm and smaller frames are
spec'd with 26" wheel sizes for
clearance. You could mount your
mountain bike components. It's going to
have front and rear rack mounts, all the
brazeons including a spoke holder. It's
supposed to be available in April or May.
It's only drawback is the ugly pea soup
green color.

http://www.surlybikes.com

thanks I need to call them and find out why they say spec a 38 triple
chainring. It sounds like I could not use a 20 or 22 chain ring



"Ugly pea soup green color"? You mean Celeste? lol

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 01:12:46 -0500 (EST),
(Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote:

From: (Jonathan*Kaplan)

Check out the new surly long haul
trucker. It is a real touring bike and the
frame/fork is going to sell for $400
range. The 54cm and smaller frames are
spec'd with 26" wheel sizes for
clearance. You could mount your
mountain bike components. It's going to
have front and rear rack mounts, all the
brazeons including a spoke holder. It's
supposed to be available in April or May.
It's only drawback is the ugly pea soup
green color.

http://www.surlybikes.com

thanks I need to call them and find out why they say spec a 38 triple
chainring. It sounds like I could not use a 20 or 22 chain ring



"Ugly pea soup green color"? You mean Celeste? lol

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:30:51 GMT, daveornee
wrote:

Willy Smallboy wrote:
Can a good hybrid be made into an adequate good touring bike? By
adding dropped bars and going to bar end friction shifters? It seems
that it would be cheaper for me to get a hybrid because they have a
26" tires, canti breaks, and low gears. These three things add a lot
of cost to a bike.
I would want to be able to add front and rear bags and I am not sure if
racks would fit.
The touring bike I like would cost 4k and is more than I can afford.



$799 will get you either the 26" wheeled REI Safari:
http://tinyurl.com/vcqi or the 700C wheeled Randonee with drop bars:
http://tinyurl.com/2fus3

Converting a hybrid can work, but mounting racks is usually a challange.
There are also many other toruing bicycles worth considering that are
far less that $4K. Adventure Cycling's magazine just published a page
full of choices, including some recumbents, and "folding" bicycles
suitable for touring. They also have an article in the most recent
edition about touring with a BOB trailer.


thanks I will look for this magazine

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 01:07:44 -0500 (EST),
(Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote:

Have you tried looking into used machines? I'll bet you can find some
good deals there.

everyday

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:30:51 GMT, daveornee
wrote:

Willy Smallboy wrote:
Can a good hybrid be made into an adequate good touring bike? By
adding dropped bars and going to bar end friction shifters? It seems
that it would be cheaper for me to get a hybrid because they have a
26" tires, canti breaks, and low gears. These three things add a lot
of cost to a bike.
I would want to be able to add front and rear bags and I am not sure if
racks would fit.
The touring bike I like would cost 4k and is more than I can afford.



$799 will get you either the 26" wheeled REI Safari:
http://tinyurl.com/vcqi or the 700C wheeled Randonee with drop bars:
http://tinyurl.com/2fus3

Converting a hybrid can work, but mounting racks is usually a challange.
There are also many other toruing bicycles worth considering that are
far less that $4K. Adventure Cycling's magazine just published a page
full of choices, including some recumbents, and "folding" bicycles
suitable for touring. They also have an article in the most recent
edition about touring with a BOB trailer.


thanks I will look for this magazine

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 01:07:44 -0500 (EST),
(Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote:

Have you tried looking into used machines? I'll bet you can find some
good deals there.

everyday

"Willy Smallboy" wrote in message
...
Can a good hybrid be made into an adequate good touring bike?
By adding dropped bars and going to bar end friction shifters?
It seems that it would be cheaper for me to get a hybrid because they
have a 26" tires, canti breaks, and low gears. These three things add
a lot of cost to a bike.

I would want to be able to add front and rear bags and I am not sure
if racks would fit.

The touring bike I like would cost 4k and is more than I can afford.

Not advisable. I've never seen a steel hybrid for sale anywhere. And a
hybrid won't be built for touring. It won't stand up to the loads.

As Co-Motion states: "a touring bike also carries a heavy load, puts extreme
strain on wheels..." A touring bicycle will usually have 40 or 48 spoke
dishless wheels.

What touring bicycle costs $4K? You can get an excellent touring bicycle for
around $2K.

Check out the Koga-Miyata Randonneur:
http://www.kogausa.com/Randonneurspecs.htm
Still $2100, but touring bikes are few and far between these days. This
looks like the best touring bicycle on the market. Wow, a lugged frame in
this day and age. Even Bruce Gordon doesn't do lugs anymore.

I like this model better than some of the more expensive touring bicycles
such as the Co-Motion Americano (http://www.co-motion.com/Amerc.html),
because on a long tour you often want a different riding position than the
dropped bars provide, and the Americano has a threadless headset which
limits your range of height adjustability, unless you start adding
extenders. Also, the Americano is $500 more.

A Bruce Gordon BLT is about $1850 with racks, see
http://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html, but I think that the Koga-Miyata is worth
the extra $400, it's complete with everything including fenders, Nexus
dynamo hub and Lumotec lights, pump, water-bottle cages, water bottles, lock
(not a good one), kickstand, saddlebag, etc.

A cheaper way to go would be with the Fuji Touring bicycle. Around $600 for
a 2003 model, see http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/closeouts.html, and
spending a few hundred dollars equipping it with racks, etc.

If you're committed to that $4K tourer in the future, then for the present
consider a used touring bike; look for a mid 1980's vintage Miyata 1000 or
Specialized Expedition (not the new hybrid Expedition, the old classic
touring model). As Sheldon Brown wrote: "The mid-80s Miyata 1000 was
possibly the finest off-the-shelf touring bike available at the time." You
can spend money to upgrade these, but the simplicity of downtube mounted
friction shifters has its appeal when touring.

For a touring bike you want:
-Steel frame, preferably a lugged frame, rather than a tig-welded frame.
-40 or 48 spoke dishless wheels
-Quill headset for adjustability
-Braze-ons for front and rear racks and for three water bottle holders.
-Clearance for fenders
-Very low gears

"Willy Smallboy" wrote in message
...
Can a good hybrid be made into an adequate good touring bike?
By adding dropped bars and going to bar end friction shifters?
It seems that it would be cheaper for me to get a hybrid because they
have a 26" tires, canti breaks, and low gears. These three things add
a lot of cost to a bike.

I would want to be able to add front and rear bags and I am not sure
if racks would fit.

The touring bike I like would cost 4k and is more than I can afford.

Not advisable. I've never seen a steel hybrid for sale anywhere. And a
hybrid won't be built for touring. It won't stand up to the loads.

As Co-Motion states: "a touring bike also carries a heavy load, puts extreme
strain on wheels..." A touring bicycle will usually have 40 or 48 spoke
dishless wheels.

What touring bicycle costs $4K? You can get an excellent touring bicycle for
around $2K.

Check out the Koga-Miyata Randonneur:
http://www.kogausa.com/Randonneurspecs.htm
Still $2100, but touring bikes are few and far between these days. This
looks like the best touring bicycle on the market. Wow, a lugged frame in
this day and age. Even Bruce Gordon doesn't do lugs anymore.

I like this model better than some of the more expensive touring bicycles
such as the Co-Motion Americano (http://www.co-motion.com/Amerc.html),
because on a long tour you often want a different riding position than the
dropped bars provide, and the Americano has a threadless headset which
limits your range of height adjustability, unless you start adding
extenders. Also, the Americano is $500 more.

A Bruce Gordon BLT is about $1850 with racks, see
http://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html, but I think that the Koga-Miyata is worth
the extra $400, it's complete with everything including fenders, Nexus
dynamo hub and Lumotec lights, pump, water-bottle cages, water bottles, lock
(not a good one), kickstand, saddlebag, etc.

A cheaper way to go would be with the Fuji Touring bicycle. Around $600 for
a 2003 model, see http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/closeouts.html, and
spending a few hundred dollars equipping it with racks, etc.

If you're committed to that $4K tourer in the future, then for the present
consider a used touring bike; look for a mid 1980's vintage Miyata 1000 or
Specialized Expedition (not the new hybrid Expedition, the old classic
touring model). As Sheldon Brown wrote: "The mid-80s Miyata 1000 was
possibly the finest off-the-shelf touring bike available at the time." You
can spend money to upgrade these, but the simplicity of downtube mounted
friction shifters has its appeal when touring.

For a touring bike you want:
-Steel frame, preferably a lugged frame, rather than a tig-welded frame.
-40 or 48 spoke dishless wheels
-Quill headset for adjustability
-Braze-ons for front and rear racks and for three water bottle holders.
-Clearance for fenders
-Very low gears

"Russell Seaton" wrote in message
om...

A hybrid bike won't stand up to the loads of touring? The hybrid
bikes I've seen are usually pretty solid bikes. More than strong
enough for loaded touring.

They look solid, but they won't stand up to loaded touring. A classic
chromolloy frame mountain bike would be a better starting point for a
conversion to a touring bike.

A touring bike will usually have 40 or 48 spoke dishless wheels? When
did this become the norm?

In the 1980's.

See: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/japan.html#miyata. The main competitor to
this was the Specialized Expedition, also with 40 spoke wheels (I have the
1984 Specialized Expedition).

Do you work for Co-Motion?

No

Co-Motion is the only one I've ever heard of promoting this wheel concept.

Other manufacturers of touring bicycles also use 40 spoke wheels.

According to Jobst Brandt, renowned wheel builder and author of The Bicycle
Wheel, "The greater the dish or asymmetry, the weaker the wheel and the
sooner the spokes will break from fatigue."

One other solution to this problem, that can be achieved without wider
spacing, is the use of the off-center-rims and hubs.

Many
people have successfully toured many miles without worrying about
trying to fit a tandem wheel into a normal bike. I would not buy an
Americano bike because of the oddball rear wheel. I've toured enough
to know you want standard parts on your bike. You do not want rear
wheels only a tandem bike shop would have. Accients can and do
happen. You want to go into any bike shop in Italy or the Czech
Republic and buy a wheel and put it in your bike and be off.

The point is that you don't want to have to rely on there being a bike shop
out in the middle of nowhere. I cycled through Russia, where you had send to
Finland for replacement parts. One person had their bike "professionally
boxed" for the trip, and the bike shop left out the QR skewers. By a sheer
stroke of luck, I had brought a load of odds and ends that I had laying
around the garage, including a pair of skewers. They were too long, but we
found some rusty nuts on a fence to use as spacers (no Home Depot to run
to). If someone had broken a wheel, there would have been no shop to buy a
replacement at, no matter the spacing or number of spokes. And in fact
someone did have a rim problem because they failed to follow the advice I
sent out prior to the tour to equip their bicycle with touring wheels, not
racing wheels. The Russian mechanic (whose main tool was a hammer) managed
to get the wheel somewhat straight, but it kept popping spokes.

Why steel? Why lugged over TIG?

Much less likely to fail. When touring, you want very reliable equipment.
You can't count on phoning someone to bail you out.

Steel is easier to repair in remote
parts of the world but other than that aluminum will work just as
nicely for a loaded touring bike. This lugged steel frame preference
sounds more emotional than factual.

It isn't emotional. It's a fact that steel frames are stronger than aluminum
frames. Lugged frames are easier to repair, both in remote and non-remote
parts of the world.

-40 or 48 spoke dishless wheels

No. Go with standard 36 spoke three cross wheels front and rear.

These are too prone to spoke breakage or complete failure. 48 spoke wheels
may be over-doing it, but 40 spoke at a minimum, for 700c wheels. For 26"
wheels 36 spoke might be okay.

You are far more likely to find spokes, rims, hubs for these standard 130
or 135 wheels.

Bring spokes with you. Though in the past 20 years I have never broken a
spoke on my touring bicycle, but have broken spokes on 36 spoke rear wheels.
You can always improvise something with a replacement wheel with a narrower
hub, if necessary.

You want standad parts on a touring bike so any bike
shop will have parts to get you on the road again. You do not want
exotic parts on a loaded touring bike. Buitl with adequate skill,
these standard 36 spoke wheels will work perfectly.

They work fine until they start popping spokes. Pop a few too many spokes in
rapid succession and the wheel collapses.

-Quill headset for adjustability

I presume you meant quill stem and threaded fork steerer.
Adjustability? I toured an entire summer in Europe and I never

snip

straight. But neither is superior or inferior on a touring bike.

Many riders prefer a less crouched over position on the touring bike. If you
look at the picture of the Comotion Americano, the bars are too low for a
comfortable riding position. Sure you can buy those funky extenders to solve
the problem, but it's inelegant and costly.

-Braze-ons for front and rear racks and for three water bottle holders.

And preferably double eyelets on the rear dropouts and fork ends. The
Blackburn clamp on low rider can work fine if the fork does not have
the through hole for the non-clamp low rider rack.

The clamp-on Blackburn Low-Rider is a pain in the butt with the hoop over
the wheel. It's usable, but unnecessary on a touring bicycle that supports
the custom low-rider racks.

As for finding a 26" wheeled touring bike, there aren't too many.
Bruce Gordon has his BLT in 26" now. Saint Johns Street Cycles in
England has their Thorn touring bikes in 26" wheel. Some of the
Rivendell bikes come with 26" wheels. And of course you can convert a
mountain bike to a tourign bike by replacing the fork, shifters and/or
brake levers, handlebars and tires. I figured it up as about $300 to
convert my Raleigh mountain bike to a loaded touring bike.

Yes, a good quality mountain bike can be converted to a touring bike. But a
hybrid has a frame and wheels that are not well-suited to loaded touring.

If I wanted to do long distance touring on a budget then I'd buy a used
Miyata 1000 or Specialized Expedition for $200 or so. These are strong and
simple machines. If I had $2K to spend I'd get the Koga-Miyata Randonneur.

As to the original subject, odds are that a hybrid could be used for touring
just fine. But you're taking a chance by using it for purposes for which it
was not designed.

One other thing; I've installed rear racks on three hybrids in the past
couple of years. In each case it required some custom aluminum flat
fabrication because the geometry of the hybrids did not lend themselves to
racks. I had to run a center support down from the rack to the hole in the
frame that would be used for fenders. Thank goodness the manufacturers use
common frame around the world, or that hole wouldn't be there on bikes sold
in the U.S.. While this set-up is fine for a small rack-top bag, I wouldn't
hang 50 pounds of panniers on the rack.

"Russell Seaton" wrote in message
om...

A hybrid bike won't stand up to the loads of touring? The hybrid
bikes I've seen are usually pretty solid bikes. More than strong
enough for loaded touring.

They look solid, but they won't stand up to loaded touring. A classic
chromolloy frame mountain bike would be a better starting point for a
conversion to a touring bike.

A touring bike will usually have 40 or 48 spoke dishless wheels? When
did this become the norm?

In the 1980's.

See: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/japan.html#miyata. The main competitor to
this was the Specialized Expedition, also with 40 spoke wheels (I have the
1984 Specialized Expedition).

Do you work for Co-Motion?

No

Co-Motion is the only one I've ever heard of promoting this wheel concept.

Other manufacturers of touring bicycles also use 40 spoke wheels.

According to Jobst Brandt, renowned wheel builder and author of The Bicycle
Wheel, "The greater the dish or asymmetry, the weaker the wheel and the
sooner the spokes will break from fatigue."

One other solution to this problem, that can be achieved without wider
spacing, is the use of the off-center-rims and hubs.

Many
people have successfully toured many miles without worrying about
trying to fit a tandem wheel into a normal bike. I would not buy an
Americano bike because of the oddball rear wheel. I've toured enough
to know you want standard parts on your bike. You do not want rear
wheels only a tandem bike shop would have. Accients can and do
happen. You want to go into any bike shop in Italy or the Czech
Republic and buy a wheel and put it in your bike and be off.

The point is that you don't want to have to rely on there being a bike shop
out in the middle of nowhere. I cycled through Russia, where you had send to
Finland for replacement parts. One person had their bike "professionally
boxed" for the trip, and the bike shop left out the QR skewers. By a sheer
stroke of luck, I had brought a load of odds and ends that I had laying
around the garage, including a pair of skewers. They were too long, but we
found some rusty nuts on a fence to use as spacers (no Home Depot to run
to). If someone had broken a wheel, there would have been no shop to buy a
replacement at, no matter the spacing or number of spokes. And in fact
someone did have a rim problem because they failed to follow the advice I
sent out prior to the tour to equip their bicycle with touring wheels, not
racing wheels. The Russian mechanic (whose main tool was a hammer) managed
to get the wheel somewhat straight, but it kept popping spokes.

Why steel? Why lugged over TIG?

Much less likely to fail. When touring, you want very reliable equipment.
You can't count on phoning someone to bail you out.

Steel is easier to repair in remote
parts of the world but other than that aluminum will work just as
nicely for a loaded touring bike. This lugged steel frame preference
sounds more emotional than factual.

It isn't emotional. It's a fact that steel frames are stronger than aluminum
frames. Lugged frames are easier to repair, both in remote and non-remote
parts of the world.

-40 or 48 spoke dishless wheels

No. Go with standard 36 spoke three cross wheels front and rear.

These are too prone to spoke breakage or complete failure. 48 spoke wheels
may be over-doing it, but 40 spoke at a minimum, for 700c wheels. For 26"
wheels 36 spoke might be okay.

You are far more likely to find spokes, rims, hubs for these standard 130
or 135 wheels.

Bring spokes with you. Though in the past 20 years I have never broken a
spoke on my touring bicycle, but have broken spokes on 36 spoke rear wheels.
You can always improvise something with a replacement wheel with a narrower
hub, if necessary.

You want standad parts on a touring bike so any bike
shop will have parts to get you on the road again. You do not want
exotic parts on a loaded touring bike. Buitl with adequate skill,
these standard 36 spoke wheels will work perfectly.

They work fine until they start popping spokes. Pop a few too many spokes in
rapid succession and the wheel collapses.

-Quill headset for adjustability

I presume you meant quill stem and threaded fork steerer.
Adjustability? I toured an entire summer in Europe and I never

snip

straight. But neither is superior or inferior on a touring bike.

Many riders prefer a less crouched over position on the touring bike. If you
look at the picture of the Comotion Americano, the bars are too low for a
comfortable riding position. Sure you can buy those funky extenders to solve
the problem, but it's inelegant and costly.

-Braze-ons for front and rear racks and for three water bottle holders.

And preferably double eyelets on the rear dropouts and fork ends. The
Blackburn clamp on low rider can work fine if the fork does not have
the through hole for the non-clamp low rider rack.

The clamp-on Blackburn Low-Rider is a pain in the butt with the hoop over
the wheel. It's usable, but unnecessary on a touring bicycle that supports
the custom low-rider racks.

As for finding a 26" wheeled touring bike, there aren't too many.
Bruce Gordon has his BLT in 26" now. Saint Johns Street Cycles in
England has their Thorn touring bikes in 26" wheel. Some of the
Rivendell bikes come with 26" wheels. And of course you can convert a
mountain bike to a tourign bike by replacing the fork, shifters and/or
brake levers, handlebars and tires. I figured it up as about $300 to
convert my Raleigh mountain bike to a loaded touring bike.

Yes, a good quality mountain bike can be converted to a touring bike. But a
hybrid has a frame and wheels that are not well-suited to loaded touring.

If I wanted to do long distance touring on a budget then I'd buy a used
Miyata 1000 or Specialized Expedition for $200 or so. These are strong and
simple machines. If I had $2K to spend I'd get the Koga-Miyata Randonneur.

As to the original subject, odds are that a hybrid could be used for touring
just fine. But you're taking a chance by using it for purposes for which it
was not designed.

One other thing; I've installed rear racks on three hybrids in the past
couple of years. In each case it required some custom aluminum flat
fabrication because the geometry of the hybrids did not lend themselves to
racks. I had to run a center support down from the rack to the hole in the
frame that would be used for fenders. Thank goodness the manufacturers use
common frame around the world, or that hole wouldn't be there on bikes sold
in the U.S.. While this set-up is fine for a small rack-top bag, I wouldn't
hang 50 pounds of panniers on the rack.