Broken Sturmey Archer X-FD Pics

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629...7627929348021/

The Sturmey was weak from the start, but that was expected with the
break-in period. About two months in something changed in the hub and
I had to take in a lot of slack from the brake cable. The braking
became irregular and the hub would drag slightly even with the brake
cable disconnected. I suspect that this was when the end cap came
loose, which you can see he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629...7628061705610/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629...7628061705610/

One month ago, while riding in a heavy rain, the hub completely quit
and went squishy. When I got home and pened it up I found the broken
arm and the loose end cap, as well as standing water inside the hub.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629...57628061705610

At that point I cleaned the whole hub out with rubbing alcohol and
sealed it back up with the locknuts as tight as possible without
stripping the threads. I put it back on the bike without the brake
attached and rode it while I waited to get in touch with Sturmey.

A month later Sturmey sent me a new hub. When I changed the brake
plate I found plenty of water inside the hub again:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629...57628061705610

The hub now works, but of course I am back to day one of break-in.

Anyone have any advice of accelerating break-in?

This wheel was supposed to be ready for a bike camping trip coming up
in month.

Frank White wrote:
The Sturmey was weak from the start, but that was expected with the
break-in period. About two months in something changed in the hub and
I had to take in a lot of slack from the brake cable. The braking
became irregular and the hub would drag slightly even with the brake
cable disconnected. I suspect that this was when the end cap came
loose, which you can see he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629...7628061705610/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629...7628061705610/

One month ago, while riding in a heavy rain, the hub completely quit
and went squishy. When I got home and pened it up I found the broken
arm and the loose end cap, as well as standing water inside the hub.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629...57628061705610

At that point I cleaned the whole hub out with rubbing alcohol and
sealed it back up with the locknuts as tight as possible without
stripping the threads. I put it back on the bike without the brake
attached and rode it while I waited to get in touch with Sturmey.

A month later Sturmey sent me a new hub. When I changed the brake
plate I found plenty of water inside the hub again:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629...57628061705610

The hub now works, but of course I am back to day one of break-in.

Anyone have any advice of accelerating break-in?

This wheel was supposed to be ready for a bike camping trip coming up
in month.


Water goes in and back out of drum hubs with little
consequence. You may have troubles, but that's not one of them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Nov 6, 11:29*am, AMuzi wrote:
Frank White wrote:
The Sturmey was weak from the start, but that was expected with the
break-in period. About two months in something changed in the hub and
I had to take in a lot of slack from the brake cable. The braking
became irregular and the hub would drag slightly even with the brake
cable disconnected. I suspect that this was when the end cap came
loose, which you can see he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629.../set-721576280...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629.../set-721576280...

One month ago, while riding in a heavy rain, the hub completely quit
and went squishy. When I got home and pened it up I found the broken
arm and the loose end cap, as well as standing water inside the hub.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629.../set-721576280...

At that point I cleaned the whole hub out with rubbing alcohol and
sealed it back up with the locknuts as tight as possible without
stripping the threads. I put it back on the bike without the brake
attached and rode it while I waited to get in touch with Sturmey.

A month later Sturmey sent me a new hub. When I changed the brake
plate I found plenty of water inside the hub again:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629.../set-721576280...

The hub now works, but of course I am back to day one of break-in.

Anyone have any advice of accelerating break-in?

This wheel was supposed to be ready for a bike camping trip coming up
in month.

Water goes in and back out of drum hubs with little
consequence. You may have troubles, but that's not one of them.

Aside from something called rust that it leaves behind:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629...57628061705610

This much rust after less than six months of mostly dry summer riding
doesn't bode well.

Frank White wrote:

AMuzi wrote:

Water goes in and back out of drum hubs with little
consequence. You may have troubles, but that's not one of them.

Aside from something called rust that it leaves behind:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629.../set-721576280...

This much rust after less than six months of mostly dry summer riding
doesn't bode well.

Sorry, but that's a cosmetic issue. I have seen drum brake hubs with
a noteworthy buildup of rust inside-- like on the order of half a
teaspoon of loose debris. I dumped it out, wiped off the clinging
dust, and reassembled, and they worked as well as ever (which might or
might not strike you as adequate).

You're looking for a problem, but not making a case for having found
one. Drum brake hubs are a little weak, occasionally noisy, and not
easy to set up to their potential, but they are boringly reliable.
The broken shoe you found in your first hub is a curious failure I
haven't seen before, but it sounds like S-A took care of you in that
regard.

If you want your drum brake to break in faster, use it more and harder
than you would otherwise. There's no shortcut I have been able to
identify, and the process takes a long time.

Chalo

On Nov 6, 6:59*pm, Frank White wrote:
On Nov 6, 11:29*am, AMuzi wrote:





Frank White wrote:
The Sturmey was weak from the start, but that was expected with the
break-in period. About two months in something changed in the hub and
I had to take in a lot of slack from the brake cable. The braking
became irregular and the hub would drag slightly even with the brake
cable disconnected. I suspect that this was when the end cap came
loose, which you can see he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629.../set-721576280....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629.../set-721576280....

One month ago, while riding in a heavy rain, the hub completely quit
and went squishy. When I got home and pened it up I found the broken
arm and the loose end cap, as well as standing water inside the hub.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629.../set-721576280....

At that point I cleaned the whole hub out with rubbing alcohol and
sealed it back up with the locknuts as tight as possible without
stripping the threads. I put it back on the bike without the brake
attached and rode it while I waited to get in touch with Sturmey.

A month later Sturmey sent me a new hub. When I changed the brake
plate I found plenty of water inside the hub again:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629.../set-721576280....

The hub now works, but of course I am back to day one of break-in.

Anyone have any advice of accelerating break-in?

This wheel was supposed to be ready for a bike camping trip coming up
in month.

Water goes in and back out of drum hubs with little
consequence. You may have troubles, but that's not one of them.

Aside from something called rust that it leaves behind:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6012629.../set-721576280...

This much rust after less than six months of mostly dry summer riding
doesn't bode well.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

frank
i have ridden a Finnish utility bike for 2 years now...everyday...rain-
snow-sleet-hail, and even in the pretty sunshine

it's equipped w/ a Sachs 3 spd w/ foot brake, and the front wheel has
the companion Sachs drum brake...hubs laced to 650B rims

i bought it used 3 years ago and it had all its original parts,
including its Nokia grey tires...it was built in 1995...it had 1000
miles on it, give or take some, my guess...

I carefully overhauled the entire cycle, and had to replace the front
drum brake's cable...i had to fashion my own achor for a new cable/
case as the original was a one piece stainless affair, drum anchor
missing, and the cable and houseing too bent up to reuse...

it took me more time to set up the front brake than to practically
make all the other adjustments to the cleaned and regreased cycle...

the front brake defied being brought into a useful adjustment...after
too much time in the stand trying to find a point where the shoes were
just not rubbing, i gave that crap a rest
....i put the bike on the ground and rode it...and got off and
tightened up the cable adjuster at the hub...then rode it and checked
the stopping power....adjusted it some more til it was, well,
useful...there is a reason for the extra long adjustable cable
stop....does the wheel drag if i lift the front end and spin the
wheel?...not really, maybe, ahhh, i bagged the fussy anal approach and
made it work for me...and it really works best when the front drum and
rear coaster brake are modulated just so...and the front on its own is
great to slow alittle to look for car driver eye contact, pedestrians
to clear a cross walk...you get the picture

the plate that holds the brake shoes on you hub, is a free floating
device...if i were in front of it i would check it for flatness, that
is, does the curled edge of the outside plate fit nicely into the
groove machined into the hub body...spin the wheel to confirm the
fit...if its bent, the shoes will not strike the interior brake
surface fully...and outside contaminants can enter the hub....

.....and even if that plate is flat, i would check the washer stack
to insure the plate rides in that hub groove as deep as it can without
rubbing...

...their is nothing much you can do with all of our words
here...except, put it together, check for the things all have
mentioned here, and use the brake...i carried a smaller adjustable and
a small pair of pliers in my back pocket for a month before i got to
where I was happy w/ it...

...don't think for one second it will be better if you buy a new
one, or a different brand...take the one you've got, and work w/
it...and really, isn't that half the fun of it anyway....

....and along w/ making good adjustments, make sure you understand
whats happening when you squeeeze the brake lever...Chalo said it
right...hard to set up to its potential, a little weak, and boringly
reliable...in other words, it is what it is...confirm that you know
what it is...then use it in good health...

god luck
charlie flaherty
baltimore maryland

On Nov 6, 11:42*pm, Chalo wrote:
snip
You're looking for a problem, but not making a case for having found
one.

The problem is that I purchased the hub under the misunderstanding
that it was weatherproof and nearly indestructible. When I researched
the hub online I found a large number of Bike Experts attesting to
these facts. Nowhere did I see any discussion of the hub's tendency to
get water in it and fail during rainstorms.

The fact that drum brakes don't work with water in them is not some
new discovery, nor is it a minority view:

https://www.google.com/search?q=water+in+drum+brakes

"If water gets between the friction surfaces and the drum, it acts as
a lubricant and reduces braking efficiency."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_brake#Disadvantages

This is why drum brakes made by industries that do not suffer from
head-stuck-up-spandexed-ass-sydrome use gaskets and seals:

https://www.google.com/search?q=drum+brake+seal

https://www.google.com/search?q=drum+brakes+gasket

The problem is that Sturmey does not.

It rains, the brake gets water in it, the brake pads get soaked, & the
brake stops working until it dries out. It will not dry out during the
rainstorm, so you have a defective front brake for the duration of the
ride. It is not just my clearly defective hub that does this. I know a
few Sturmey-crazy mechanics who use the new 90mm hubs and they are
having exactly the same problem.

This problem may be limited to the X-FD & X-FDD hubs, because they
have no gaskets or seals at all. It may also be limited to the rain
soaked hills of Portland Oregon. So if you are riding an Atom in
Chicago, or a Sachs in Austin, it may not be an issue for you. But as
the people who will buy this product are *exactly* the people who ride
in the rain, they should be informed that this brake will FAIL WHEN
THEY NEED IT THE MOST. To dismiss this as inconsequential is a bunch
of rancid BULL****.

My experience with rust is that when you let it set up in a part under
heavy stress, that part will fail sooner rather than later. My main
concern with the X-FD is the gimpy little star-nut that holds the
brake arms in place on the cam. The one I removed already has large
rust spots on it. When it rusts out enough, it will fall off the cam.
At that point the arms will no longer be held in place, and god only
knows what the star nut will get up to inside the hub. If it gets
between the brake pad and the hub it could lock up the brake and send
me under the bus.

My normal solution to this problem is to spray out the part with WD40
and grease all the affected surfaces. Clearly I can't do that inside a
drum brake. If anyone has any ideas on an anti-rust agent that can be
used inside a drum brake, I would love to hear about it. If anyone has
any experience using spray can drum brake cleaners on X-FD hubs, I
would love to hear about that too.

The failure of the brake mechanism may be a random fluke, or it may be
evidence of a severe quality control problem going on at Sunrace right
now. When I posted about my hub in the yahoo gear hubs group one of
the members responded with this:

Dont want to bash Sturmey but on Thursday the X-FD outer casing
retaining the torsion arm and brake assembly just cracked.
Where you see the wave line run from one side to the other it cracked
along that line and the pivot leading to the actuating lever errupted
through the said plate the whole assembly dropped, the arm came out of
the fork brace capture, span round and jammed luckily I was cycling a
low speed and bashed my arm against a parked car for those of you that
are concerned the car is OK.
This will be going back to Sturmey's distributor for analysis/comment.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Geared...s/message/5795

I have been talking to local shops that sell Sturmey, and they are all
having the same problems: The hubs are either defective out of the
box, or fail in short order. Getting in touch with Sturmey to warranty
it can take weeks (it took me a month). The main culprits are the 5
speed hubs from the Linus bikes, the S3X and the S2C hubs. I notice
that Sturmey sent me a replacement hub without asking for the broken
part or even a photo, and sent me an entire new hub that is clearly
from a different production run than the first. That suggests they are
well aware of a production problem.

The sad thing about the X-FD is that it is the entire tragedy of
Sturmey Archer: An otherwise excellent product that is fundamentally
defective for the purpose it was built and sold for, because someone
was too cheap or too stupid to include a seal. This isn't a
complicated engineering problem. Seals have been coming on bicycle
hubs and drum brakes for a long ****ing time.

I am going to try and add one myself with some permatex instant
gasket. If any of you drum brake "Experts" have any advice on where to
put it, I would love to hear about that and any other advice on how to
seal the hub.

--
-Frank White

Frank White wrote:
On Nov 6, 11:42 pm, Chalo wrote:
snip
You're looking for a problem, but not making a case for having found
one.

The problem is that I purchased the hub under the misunderstanding
that it was weatherproof and nearly indestructible. When I researched
the hub online I found a large number of Bike Experts attesting to
these facts. Nowhere did I see any discussion of the hub's tendency to
get water in it and fail during rainstorms.

The fact that drum brakes don't work with water in them is not some
new discovery, nor is it a minority view:

https://www.google.com/search?q=water+in+drum+brakes

"If water gets between the friction surfaces and the drum, it acts as
a lubricant and reduces braking efficiency."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_brake#Disadvantages

This is why drum brakes made by industries that do not suffer from
head-stuck-up-spandexed-ass-sydrome use gaskets and seals:

https://www.google.com/search?q=drum+brake+seal

https://www.google.com/search?q=drum+brakes+gasket

Be very careful applying the brakes on your Series IIA Land Rover after
negotiating a river crossing. (4 wheel drums, no seals).

First you have almost no brakes at all. Then one side dries out and
grips hard. The steering wheel spins unless you have gorilla grip
hands, and you dive off the road and into the bush.

Been there, done that.

Maybe LR suffers from "head-stuck-up-spandexed-ass-sydrome"?

Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing a water seal on any motor
vehicle drum brake that I've serviced. I think the seals you are
talking about are for the hydraulic slave cylinder and perhaps the wheel
bearing. These stop oil leaking onto the shoe and drum.

--
JS.

On Tue, 8 Nov 2011 13:34:08 -0800 (PST), Frank White
wrote:

On Nov 6, 11:42*pm, Chalo wrote:
snip
You're looking for a problem, but not making a case for having found
one.

The problem is that I purchased the hub under the misunderstanding
that it was weatherproof and nearly indestructible. When I researched
the hub online I found a large number of Bike Experts attesting to
these facts. Nowhere did I see any discussion of the hub's tendency to
get water in it and fail during rainstorms.

The fact that drum brakes don't work with water in them is not some
new discovery, nor is it a minority view:

https://www.google.com/search?q=water+in+drum+brakes

"If water gets between the friction surfaces and the drum, it acts as
a lubricant and reduces braking efficiency."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_brake#Disadvantages

This is why drum brakes made by industries that do not suffer from
head-stuck-up-spandexed-ass-sydrome use gaskets and seals:

https://www.google.com/search?q=drum+brake+seal

https://www.google.com/search?q=drum+brakes+gasket


Well, disregarding the question whether or not brakes work well with
water in them, your references above are for replacing the hydraulic
actuating brake cylinder seals, not a seal to prevent water from
entering the drum.

The problem is that Sturmey does not.

It rains, the brake gets water in it, the brake pads get soaked, & the
brake stops working until it dries out. It will not dry out during the
rainstorm, so you have a defective front brake for the duration of the
ride. It is not just my clearly defective hub that does this. I know a
few Sturmey-crazy mechanics who use the new 90mm hubs and they are
having exactly the same problem.

This problem may be limited to the X-FD & X-FDD hubs, because they
have no gaskets or seals at all. It may also be limited to the rain
soaked hills of Portland Oregon. So if you are riding an Atom in
Chicago, or a Sachs in Austin, it may not be an issue for you. But as
the people who will buy this product are *exactly* the people who ride
in the rain, they should be informed that this brake will FAIL WHEN
THEY NEED IT THE MOST. To dismiss this as inconsequential is a bunch
of rancid BULL****.

My experience with rust is that when you let it set up in a part under
heavy stress, that part will fail sooner rather than later. My main
concern with the X-FD is the gimpy little star-nut that holds the
brake arms in place on the cam. The one I removed already has large
rust spots on it. When it rusts out enough, it will fall off the cam.
At that point the arms will no longer be held in place, and god only
knows what the star nut will get up to inside the hub. If it gets
between the brake pad and the hub it could lock up the brake and send
me under the bus.

I think that another look at the "star nut" will show that there is
almost no thrust against the nut. It is simply a retainer to keep the
shaft from falling out.

My normal solution to this problem is to spray out the part with WD40
and grease all the affected surfaces. Clearly I can't do that inside a
drum brake. If anyone has any ideas on an anti-rust agent that can be
used inside a drum brake, I would love to hear about it. If anyone has
any experience using spray can drum brake cleaners on X-FD hubs, I
would love to hear about that too.

There are a number of solutions. Probably the easiest is to use a
phosphoric acid rust remover available in most auto parts shops that
converts iron oxide(rust) to ferric phosphate which is a "rust
resistant". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid

The failure of the brake mechanism may be a random fluke, or it may be
evidence of a severe quality control problem going on at Sunrace right
now. When I posted about my hub in the yahoo gear hubs group one of
the members responded with this:

Dont want to bash router casing
retaining the torsion arm and brake assembly just cracked.
Where you see the wave line run from one side to the other it cracked
along that line and the pivot leading to the actuating lever errupted
through the said plate the whole assembly dropped, the arm came out of
the fork brace capture, span round and jammed luckily I was cycling a
low speed and bashed my arm against a parked car for those of you that
are concerned the car is OK.
This will be going back to Sturmey's distributor for analysis/comment.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Geared...s/message/5795

I have been talking to local shops that sell Sturmey, and they are all
having the same problems: The hubs are either defective out of the
box, or fail in short order. Getting in touch with Sturmey to warranty
it can take weeks (it took me a month). The main culprits are the 5
speed hubs from the Linus bikes, the S3X and the S2C hubs. I notice
that Sturmey sent me a replacement hub without asking for the broken
part or even a photo, and sent me an entire new hub that is clearly
from a different production run than the first. That suggests they are
well aware of a production problem.

The sad thing about the X-FD is that it is the entire tragedy of
Sturmey Archer: An otherwise excellent product that is fundamentally
defective for the purpose it was built and sold for, because someone
was too cheap or too stupid to include a seal. This isn't a
complicated engineering problem. Seals have been coming on bicycle
hubs and drum brakes for a long ****ing time.

Complicated engineering problem? What sort of seal would you envision
between the brake backplate and the brake hub that wouldn't involve
considerable friction?


I am going to try and add one myself with some permatex instant
gasket. If any of you drum brake "Experts" have any advice on where to
put it, I would love to hear about that and any other advice on how to
seal the hub.


Squirt permatex into the opening between the hub and the brake plate?
Good luck.


--
John B.

Frank White wrote:
On Nov 6, 11:42 pm, Chalo wrote:
snip
You're looking for a problem, but not making a case for having found
one.

The problem is that I purchased the hub under the misunderstanding
that it was weatherproof and nearly indestructible. When I researched
the hub online I found a large number of Bike Experts attesting to
these facts. Nowhere did I see any discussion of the hub's tendency to
get water in it and fail during rainstorms.

The fact that drum brakes don't work with water in them is not some
new discovery, nor is it a minority view:

https://www.google.com/search?q=water+in+drum+brakes

"If water gets between the friction surfaces and the drum, it acts as
a lubricant and reduces braking efficiency."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_brake#Disadvantages

This is why drum brakes made by industries that do not suffer from
head-stuck-up-spandexed-ass-sydrome use gaskets and seals:

https://www.google.com/search?q=drum+brake+seal

https://www.google.com/search?q=drum+brakes+gasket

The problem is that Sturmey does not.

It rains, the brake gets water in it, the brake pads get soaked, & the
brake stops working until it dries out. It will not dry out during the
rainstorm, so you have a defective front brake for the duration of the
ride. It is not just my clearly defective hub that does this. I know a
few Sturmey-crazy mechanics who use the new 90mm hubs and they are
having exactly the same problem.

This problem may be limited to the X-FD & X-FDD hubs, because they
have no gaskets or seals at all. It may also be limited to the rain
soaked hills of Portland Oregon. So if you are riding an Atom in
Chicago, or a Sachs in Austin, it may not be an issue for you. But as
the people who will buy this product are *exactly* the people who ride
in the rain, they should be informed that this brake will FAIL WHEN
THEY NEED IT THE MOST. To dismiss this as inconsequential is a bunch
of rancid BULL****.

My experience with rust is that when you let it set up in a part under
heavy stress, that part will fail sooner rather than later. My main
concern with the X-FD is the gimpy little star-nut that holds the
brake arms in place on the cam. The one I removed already has large
rust spots on it. When it rusts out enough, it will fall off the cam.
At that point the arms will no longer be held in place, and god only
knows what the star nut will get up to inside the hub. If it gets
between the brake pad and the hub it could lock up the brake and send
me under the bus.

My normal solution to this problem is to spray out the part with WD40
and grease all the affected surfaces. Clearly I can't do that inside a
drum brake. If anyone has any ideas on an anti-rust agent that can be
used inside a drum brake, I would love to hear about it. If anyone has
any experience using spray can drum brake cleaners on X-FD hubs, I
would love to hear about that too.

The failure of the brake mechanism may be a random fluke, or it may be
evidence of a severe quality control problem going on at Sunrace right
now. When I posted about my hub in the yahoo gear hubs group one of
the members responded with this:

Dont want to bash Sturmey but on Thursday the X-FD outer casing
retaining the torsion arm and brake assembly just cracked.
Where you see the wave line run from one side to the other it cracked
along that line and the pivot leading to the actuating lever errupted
through the said plate the whole assembly dropped, the arm came out of
the fork brace capture, span round and jammed luckily I was cycling a
low speed and bashed my arm against a parked car for those of you that
are concerned the car is OK.
This will be going back to Sturmey's distributor for analysis/comment.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Geared...s/message/5795

I have been talking to local shops that sell Sturmey, and they are all
having the same problems: The hubs are either defective out of the
box, or fail in short order. Getting in touch with Sturmey to warranty
it can take weeks (it took me a month). The main culprits are the 5
speed hubs from the Linus bikes, the S3X and the S2C hubs. I notice
that Sturmey sent me a replacement hub without asking for the broken
part or even a photo, and sent me an entire new hub that is clearly
from a different production run than the first. That suggests they are
well aware of a production problem.

The sad thing about the X-FD is that it is the entire tragedy of
Sturmey Archer: An otherwise excellent product that is fundamentally
defective for the purpose it was built and sold for, because someone
was too cheap or too stupid to include a seal. This isn't a
complicated engineering problem. Seals have been coming on bicycle
hubs and drum brakes for a long ****ing time.

I am going to try and add one myself with some permatex instant
gasket. If any of you drum brake "Experts" have any advice on where to
put it, I would love to hear about that and any other advice on how to
seal the hub.

--
-Frank White


Neither my own 1953 Sturmey AB (AW with drum; my most-ridden
daily bicycle) nor new Sturmeys nor SRAM drum brakes nor
Atom nor even Maxicar have any provision for keeping water
out of a brake drum.

I've owned and worked on a lot of cars with drum brakes:
Ramblers, Chevys, MG, SIMCA, Fiat, BMW, Triumph, various
Japanese models and not one had any provision for keeping
water out of a drum brake.

Water goes in and it runs out. Any residual moisture is gone
once the brake is warm.

I'm sure you could seal up the opening at the braking plate
perimeter but not if you want that hub to turn.

Again, you may have troubles but this is not one of them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971