Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery

On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:29:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Why would someone bother trying to recharge a cyclometer's CR2032?

1. It's ecologically correct to use rechargeable cells instead of
polluting with throw away cells.
2. The ML2032 can be recharged with a solar charger such is the
Logitech K750 solar keyboard.
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Logitech+K750+Keyboard+Battery+Replacement/23376
3. Lithium is scarce and getting expensive.
http://fortune.com/2016/06/06/lithium-price-tesla-metal-future/
https://www.metalary.com/lithium-price/
4. Lithium recycling is difficult and simply not being done. What
recycling is done from electric car batteries is to recover the cobalt
and nickel, not lithium.
https://waste-management-world.com/a/1-the-lithium-battery-recycling-challenge
5. Using rechargeable batteries entitles me to display a "zero waste
sticker".

On the down side:
1. The ML2032 runs the bicycle computah for 1/4th the runtime of the
CR2032 cell.
2. If you discharge the ML2032 to near zero, and let it sit for a
week or more, you kill the battery.

New
CR2032 batteries cost maybe $2 each. I bought some even cheaper in bulk,
and I've given them away to friends.

About $0.11/ea in 100x quantity on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/131558748481
I've done some testing and found them as good or better than the name
brand cells. Since a CR2032 will last 2-3 years and runs 4 times as
long as a rechargeable ML2032 in a bicycle computer, this is not
economically correct.

Buying a special 2032 charger sounds as sensible as buying a special
machine to re-sharpen your toothpicks.

In about 1975, I almost invested in an on-demand toothpick lathe
product. It produced custom toothpicks, from a variety of exotic
woods, on demand. It was intended for high class restaurants and was
fun to watch. I decided that nobody would pay for a toothpick, even
if it was made from an endangered species, so I graciously declined.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 21:44:10 -0700, sms
wrote:

What the ATX designers didn't take into account was that a lot of people
plug computers into a power strip and turn off the power strip after
they shut down the computer. So those 2032 cells were discharging way
too fast.

Things have improved. I have quite a few computers and motherboards
in my office with CR2032 cells installed, but no power applied. Before
delivering anything, I always check the voltage. Anything under 2.9V
gets replaced with a new cell. My guess(tm) is that most of these
last at least 3 years and often longer with no power applied.

Curiously; I've had more RTC coin cell failures on in use PCs than on
motherboards I've acquired from various sources that may not have been
powered for years.

On 2017-10-21 17:31, Oculus Lights wrote:
Here's my source for Panasonic 18650 LI cells:
https://liionwholesale.com/?refer1=a...RoCFkgQAvD_BwE

Support a good American distributor selling tested and verified
batteries, at competitive prices even for small quantities. They
also sell the 6 cell LUC brand charger and 4 bay Opus
analyzer/charger.


Well, I got an 8-cell pack for $20 including shipping. That's hard to
beat. It has upped my full-DRL riding time to 4h and after about a year
I don't notice any aging.

Other than that I always try to buy local or at least domestic but I do
draw the line when prices are egregious. For example, I am not paying
$17/pair for brake pads when I can get better quality pads for $2/pair
in Asia. Or my riding buddy who just bought tow (!) sets of brake pads
for a Suzuki 650 dirt bike for all of 10 bucks.


These test out in my Opus tester/charger at 3500+mAH in both charging
and discharging. I test charging at 2A and drain at 1A,the Opus'
limit. Burn time in the light is measured at each step from 9A max
(in the 3000Extreme) down to 70mA.

My 26650 come in large quantities through a direct rep from Heter, a
humongous scale better maker in China who makes many cells for other
big brand name electronic companies, who are considered to make their
own, but don't. Minimum quantities in the 1000 lot size for the
measured 5500mAH unbranded ones I get for the Oculus lights and sell
competitively versus the Chinesium crap. Maybe ~1 in 100 might not
be up to spec, and only two out of 1000 have been DOA. The blue
Tenergy brand 26650, unchipped, sold in Fry's, with a black seal
around the + end contact, are likely the same but at Fry's much
higher retail price, but never know the true capacity without
testing, draining, recharging, repeatedly for at least a hundred
cycles. Another problem with Chinesium is that they tend not to last
nearly as many charge cycles as authentic first quality batteries,
regardless of the capacity when allegedly new. That versus one of
the Heter's I've been charging and draining almost daily since
February, that still test charges at 5500mAH.


I don't buy at Fry's anymore, got my reasons. 26650 would be nice but so
far I am happy with my 18650 clusters.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:42:44 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 21:44:10 -0700, sms
wrote:

What the ATX designers didn't take into account was that a lot of people
plug computers into a power strip and turn off the power strip after
they shut down the computer. So those 2032 cells were discharging way
too fast.

Things have improved. I have quite a few computers and motherboards
in my office with CR2032 cells installed, but no power applied. Before
delivering anything, I always check the voltage. Anything under 2.9V
gets replaced with a new cell. My guess(tm) is that most of these
last at least 3 years and often longer with no power applied.

Curiously; I've had more RTC coin cell failures on in use PCs than on
motherboards I've acquired from various sources that may not have been
powered for years.

It would be helpful if you described what you mean by "failure".

My guess(tm) is that the heat inside the PC is causing some premature
discharge:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge
There are no graphs on the page showing Li/MnO2 self-discharge, but I
suspect it's similar to the other Li based cells.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:42:44 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 21:44:10 -0700, sms
wrote:

What the ATX designers didn't take into account was that a lot of people
plug computers into a power strip and turn off the power strip after
they shut down the computer. So those 2032 cells were discharging way
too fast.

Things have improved. I have quite a few computers and motherboards
in my office with CR2032 cells installed, but no power applied. Before
delivering anything, I always check the voltage. Anything under 2.9V
gets replaced with a new cell. My guess(tm) is that most of these
last at least 3 years and often longer with no power applied.

Curiously; I've had more RTC coin cell failures on in use PCs than on
motherboards I've acquired from various sources that may not have been
powered for years.

It would be helpful if you described what you mean by "failure".

As defined by; "CMOS checksum error - press F2 to enter setup".

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 9:45:37 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:38:07 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 8:14:13 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 13:49:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

All of my speedos use 2032 cells. I used to just buy
a card of them and insert new ones. Then I realized
that they are Li-ion. Do these things charge up again?

No. The common CR2032 Lithium (not Lithium-Ion) cell is NOT
rechargeable. However, you can buy an ML2032 cell that is
rechargeable in a suitable charger.
http://www.maxell.com.tw/images/uploads/2015/05/ML2032_DataSheet_table.pdf
Be careful when shopping. Some of the ML2032 cells for sale on eBay
are counterfeits or reworked CR2032. Real ML2032 cells are
considerably more expensive than CR2032. For example:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA7324T45066
I bought some of these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Maxell-ML2032-Rechargeable-2032-3V-CMOS-Backup-Battery-/110860774466
which turned out to be genuine.

The chargers are quite cheap:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ml2032+charger
If you're going to make your own charger (such as a solar charger),
note that the ML2032 is rated at 2ma maximum charging current:
http://www.maxell.com.tw/images/uploads/2015/05/ML_Warnings_11e.pdf

Thanks Jeff. Do you know what the energy storage of both are?

Energy is watt-hrs = volts*amps*hrs.
One Joule = 1 watt-second but we won't need that here.

Both batteries are rated at 3.0 volts,
so the CR2032 cell is:
3V * 250 ma-hr = 750 milliwatt-hours = 0.75 watt-hours
and the ML2032 is:
3V * 65 ma-hr = 195 milliwatt-hours = 0.195 watt-hours
The numbers are approximate at the battery capacity will vary with the
load. The discharge curves on the two Maxell spec sheets should give
more accurate numbers once the current drain of your bicycle computah
is known. If you give me a number for how long the CR2032 battery
lasts, I can work backwards and calculate the average current drain.

However, if you want to avoid the problem, and just happen to have a
single cell LiIon powered headlight next to the bicycle computah, you
could just run two wires from the headlight battery to the computah
for power. You would need to install some kind of voltage drop in
order to reduce the 4.2V maximum voltage from the headlight battery,
to something the computah can handle, which is under 3.2V. Two 1N4001
silicon diodes in series should drop the voltage by 1.2V. Extra
credit for mounting the computer on top of the bicycle light to hide
the wires.

Actually that was answered the next posting below yours that I inquired.

This difference in power is so substantial that it simply isn't worth using a 2032 instead of a CL2032.

The pain in the butt with the present speedo I have is that when you replace the battery in the sending unit you have to reset the entire thing to get to the place where you can sync the sender to the receiver. You'd think that they would have thought of making that saved in ROM.

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 10:12:13 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:29:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Why would someone bother trying to recharge a cyclometer's CR2032?

1. It's ecologically correct to use rechargeable cells instead of
polluting with throw away cells.
2. The ML2032 can be recharged with a solar charger such is the
Logitech K750 solar keyboard.
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Logitech+K750+Keyboard+Battery+Replacement/23376
3. Lithium is scarce and getting expensive.
http://fortune.com/2016/06/06/lithium-price-tesla-metal-future/
https://www.metalary.com/lithium-price/
4. Lithium recycling is difficult and simply not being done. What
recycling is done from electric car batteries is to recover the cobalt
and nickel, not lithium.
https://waste-management-world.com/a/1-the-lithium-battery-recycling-challenge
5. Using rechargeable batteries entitles me to display a "zero waste
sticker".

On the down side:
1. The ML2032 runs the bicycle computah for 1/4th the runtime of the
CR2032 cell.
2. If you discharge the ML2032 to near zero, and let it sit for a
week or more, you kill the battery.

New
CR2032 batteries cost maybe $2 each. I bought some even cheaper in bulk,
and I've given them away to friends.

About $0.11/ea in 100x quantity on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/131558748481
I've done some testing and found them as good or better than the name
brand cells. Since a CR2032 will last 2-3 years and runs 4 times as
long as a rechargeable ML2032 in a bicycle computer, this is not
economically correct.

Buying a special 2032 charger sounds as sensible as buying a special
machine to re-sharpen your toothpicks.

In about 1975, I almost invested in an on-demand toothpick lathe
product. It produced custom toothpicks, from a variety of exotic
woods, on demand. It was intended for high class restaurants and was
fun to watch. I decided that nobody would pay for a toothpick, even
if it was made from an endangered species, so I graciously declined.

Note from a review: "These seem to be losing voltage without being used. I got six and I used two of them right away and they worked well, but now the ones I saved for future need have lost some of their voltage in storage. New they were 3v. But now after a year unused they are down to 2.55 v. I would suggest buying them as needed, and not in anticipation of need."

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:55:07 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-21 17:31, Oculus Lights wrote:
Here's my source for Panasonic 18650 LI cells:
https://liionwholesale.com/?refer1=a...RoCFkgQAvD_BwE

Support a good American distributor selling tested and verified
batteries, at competitive prices even for small quantities. They
also sell the 6 cell LUC brand charger and 4 bay Opus
analyzer/charger.


Well, I got an 8-cell pack for $20 including shipping. That's hard to
beat. It has upped my full-DRL riding time to 4h and after about a year
I don't notice any aging.

Other than that I always try to buy local or at least domestic but I do
draw the line when prices are egregious. For example, I am not paying
$17/pair for brake pads when I can get better quality pads for $2/pair
in Asia. Or my riding buddy who just bought tow (!) sets of brake pads
for a Suzuki 650 dirt bike for all of 10 bucks.


These test out in my Opus tester/charger at 3500+mAH in both charging
and discharging. I test charging at 2A and drain at 1A,the Opus'
limit. Burn time in the light is measured at each step from 9A max
(in the 3000Extreme) down to 70mA.

My 26650 come in large quantities through a direct rep from Heter, a
humongous scale better maker in China who makes many cells for other
big brand name electronic companies, who are considered to make their
own, but don't. Minimum quantities in the 1000 lot size for the
measured 5500mAH unbranded ones I get for the Oculus lights and sell
competitively versus the Chinesium crap. Maybe ~1 in 100 might not
be up to spec, and only two out of 1000 have been DOA. The blue
Tenergy brand 26650, unchipped, sold in Fry's, with a black seal
around the + end contact, are likely the same but at Fry's much
higher retail price, but never know the true capacity without
testing, draining, recharging, repeatedly for at least a hundred
cycles. Another problem with Chinesium is that they tend not to last
nearly as many charge cycles as authentic first quality batteries,
regardless of the capacity when allegedly new. That versus one of
the Heter's I've been charging and draining almost daily since
February, that still test charges at 5500mAH.


I don't buy at Fry's anymore, got my reasons. 26650 would be nice but so
far I am happy with my 18650 clusters.

The length of time it took my CL2032 to wear out in my speedo/altimeter the rest of them in a six-pack were dead.

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:55:07 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

I don't buy at Fry's anymore, got my reasons. 26650 would be nice but so
far I am happy with my 18650 clusters.

Fry's is only good for buying things like laptops and TV's anymore. I don't know what happened to them. Perhaps they didn't understand pricing.

On 2017-10-24 14:10, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:55:07 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-21 17:31, Oculus Lights wrote:
Here's my source for Panasonic 18650 LI cells:
https://liionwholesale.com/?refer1=a...RoCFkgQAvD_BwE



Support a good American distributor selling tested and verified
batteries, at competitive prices even for small quantities.
They also sell the 6 cell LUC brand charger and 4 bay Opus
analyzer/charger.


Well, I got an 8-cell pack for $20 including shipping. That's hard
to beat. It has upped my full-DRL riding time to 4h and after
about a year I don't notice any aging.

Other than that I always try to buy local or at least domestic but
I do draw the line when prices are egregious. For example, I am not
paying $17/pair for brake pads when I can get better quality pads
for $2/pair in Asia. Or my riding buddy who just bought tow (!)
sets of brake pads for a Suzuki 650 dirt bike for all of 10 bucks.


These test out in my Opus tester/charger at 3500+mAH in both
charging and discharging. I test charging at 2A and drain at
1A,the Opus' limit. Burn time in the light is measured at each
step from 9A max (in the 3000Extreme) down to 70mA.

My 26650 come in large quantities through a direct rep from
Heter, a humongous scale better maker in China who makes many
cells for other big brand name electronic companies, who are
considered to make their own, but don't. Minimum quantities in
the 1000 lot size for the measured 5500mAH unbranded ones I get
for the Oculus lights and sell competitively versus the Chinesium
crap. Maybe ~1 in 100 might not be up to spec, and only two out
of 1000 have been DOA. The blue Tenergy brand 26650, unchipped,
sold in Fry's, with a black seal around the + end contact, are
likely the same but at Fry's much higher retail price, but never
know the true capacity without testing, draining, recharging,
repeatedly for at least a hundred cycles. Another problem with
Chinesium is that they tend not to last nearly as many charge
cycles as authentic first quality batteries, regardless of the
capacity when allegedly new. That versus one of the Heter's I've
been charging and draining almost daily since February, that
still test charges at 5500mAH.


I don't buy at Fry's anymore, got my reasons. 26650 would be nice
but so far I am happy with my 18650 clusters.

The length of time it took my CL2032 to wear out in my
speedo/altimeter the rest of them in a six-pack were dead.


My lights pull in almost 10 watts when at full brightness. A 2032 would
not even last a millisecond.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/