Replace Shimano 600EX crank set replacement

On 4/1/2021 9:10 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, March 31, 2021 at 1:16:14 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/31/2021 1:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 3/31/21 12:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 1:39:45 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 3/29/21 1:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2021 3:19 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 3/29/21 12:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 3/29/21 10:45 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2021 11:00 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 3/28/21 12:25 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/28/2021 2:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 3/28/21 4:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zaterdag 27 maart 2021 om 23:41:04 UTC+1 schreef
Joerg:
On 3/18/21 2:58 PM, Joerg wrote:
My chain rings are through again but replacements have
become expensive.
It's now much cheaper to buy a simple crank set of
another brand.
Preferably steel because aluminum wears so fast.
What I
have is:

Shimano 600EX, 52/42T, bottom bracket is 116mm JIS
taper.

What I'd like to replace it with is this Vuelta Corsa
set:

https://smile.amazon.com/Vuelta-8150...dp/B0081UV2NU/







Only 50T which is kind of ok but the 32T lower will
move
me up hills
much better. Getting old, and all that sort of thing.
However, says it's
for 110mm BB and I wonder if my chain line would go
out
of whack. I'll
ask on Amazon as well but usually there aren't good
answers that way.

My shifters are simple friction levers and the
front DR
cage looks tall
enough to handle the 50/32 step.

Do you guys think this would work?

Long story short, I ordered the 53/39T Version with
130mm
BCD - junk.
The cheap bolts were overtorqued and two of the Allen
inserts stripped.
Plus they didn't send Vuelta Corsa but some no-name
that
was quite
scuffed up. Goes back for a refund :-(
--
Regards, Joerg

That what I would expect from a 36 dollar
crankset....junk.


I have seen good ones in that range. What is cheap
were the
chain rings which are then steel. However, that's
right up
my alley because I am after durability and not a weight
weenie.

Thing is, what they sent were not Vuelta Corsa. Now
I'll be
looking for steel chain rings with 130mm BCD because my
cranks set itself is still good.


Given your riding conditions, style and comments here, $36
for two steel rings is a really good value to you. Recycle
the arms and you're still way ahead.

*nb* Steel rings are frequently thinner than aluminum
rings with a milled recess. This is shown mostly by the
chainring bolts being damaged from overtorque while the
rings still rattle. Check that and add a spacer under the
nut side as needed.


Darn, I already did the return thing. Mainly because I
could
not get two of the bolts out. They were overtorqued and
then
the hex pattern stripped out of the cheapo material. Could
have somehow drilled them out I guess. This also gave me
the
feeling that the steel rings are inferior material as well
and would wear off quickly.



Where wear is critical (high torque rider, excessive
dirt, high mileage etc) ...


That sounds like me :-)


 ... steel rings are an improvement. Notice that many
cranks come with pretty milled and pinned aluminum outers
but steel inners.


So far I haven't found much 130mm BCD stuff in steel. If I
really can't maybe I order that set again and then drill
out the bolts to scavenge the chain rings. It's probably
not very good steel but better than nothing.


P.S.: Aluminum chain rings have another major downside. They
cannot be turned around for a 2nd life because then the hole
recesses are on the wrong side.


Maybe, maybe not. I think you'll find most modern steel chainrings are
offset and also ramped for shifting.

These ones weren't offset but they were ramped. Shifting never bothered
me so I also turned individual sprockets in the cassette around, after
dremeling off part of the wider spline. On the 2h ride into Sacramento
that probably made me 500 milliseconds late :-)

On the road bike I don't shift much until I get back near home with some
steep climbs.

Joerge, I think that you're making a mistake looking for steel rings.
Aluminum rings have had remarkable advancement in shifting and THAT is
where most excessive wear occurs in the rings. The slight "give" in an
aluminum ring actually reduces the wear on the chain itself. Thinking
that the FSA rings would wear out I bought an extra set and after 4
years and a change in FSA standard chain arms, they have never been
needed.


I wore through several aluminum rings from Shimano and now rings for the
600EX set seems to have become unobtanium unless I pay an obscene price.
I really do not care about shifting speed. I don't use the road bike on
dirt/gravel roads much anymore so not much shifting. Weight never
mattered to me either. My only concern is wear.

During my time at the university I rode around 6000mi/year and because
of rampant theft used old beater road bikes, cheap department store
bikes, for all commuting and the good bike (the one I still use now) for
touring, fitness and fun rides. The steel rings on the beater bikes
lasted a _lot_ more miles despite being of a very cheap variety.

Yes, there's really no doubt that steel chainrings wear longer than
aluminum ones (Tom notwithstanding). That's one reason why the smallest
MTB rings are/were available in steel, even for high-end cranks. Got
one - Campagnolo even! - for my tandem granny gear (26T). Beyond those,
though, good luck finding well-made steel rings that fit a quality crankset.

Mark J.
I had a Campy Record triple and I still have the aluminum 26 ring around here someplace. Now what is it about these high end steel Campy rings?


Earlier model Campagnolo steel chainring. We bought a large
number of them when they were discontinued. Very well
respected by tourists with triples especially on tandems.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, March 31, 2021 at 10:07:48 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

We didn't have any of those fancy "shifting aids" in the 80's and I was
still able to shift gears :-)

I'd always been perfectly happy friction shifting front doubles without ramps and pins, but do wonder if I'd feel the same with a triple crank. I can imagine the middle chainring hiding in the shadow of the big ring when shifting up from the inner ring.

When I did finally go to a Campy Veloce triple crank, I found itits ramps and pins do their job quite well. Maybe a little too well: there are still times I look down to see if a front upshift completed or not since the shift goes so smooth I often don't hear it happen. At first, I was surprised how most of the time I had enough doubt to look, the shift had completed. Lately, I'm finding myself more frequently surprised when a shift didn't take. I don't think anything's changed with the bike, just my own expectations.

Part of me is considering installing my middle ring out of phase so the ramps and pins don't work so smoothly. I'd imagine they'd still help with shifts, but being out of phase would let the chain clunk into place afterwards like the good old days rather than silently slipping in.

Another part of me wants to find a Shimano 6206 triple crank to put on the (otherwise 600EX) bike in place of the Veloce. But availability of the 110/74 chainrings it takes is the main thing holding me back.

-Luns

On 4/1/2021 1:11 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, March 31, 2021 at 10:07:48 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

We didn't have any of those fancy "shifting aids" in the 80's and I was
still able to shift gears :-)

I'd always been perfectly happy friction shifting front doubles without ramps and pins, but do wonder if I'd feel the same with a triple crank. I can imagine the middle chainring hiding in the shadow of the big ring when shifting up from the inner ring.

When I did finally go to a Campy Veloce triple crank, I found itits ramps and pins do their job quite well. Maybe a little too well: there are still times I look down to see if a front upshift completed or not since the shift goes so smooth I often don't hear it happen. At first, I was surprised how most of the time I had enough doubt to look, the shift had completed. Lately, I'm finding myself more frequently surprised when a shift didn't take. I don't think anything's changed with the bike, just my own expectations.

Part of me is considering installing my middle ring out of phase so the ramps and pins don't work so smoothly. I'd imagine they'd still help with shifts, but being out of phase would let the chain clunk into place afterwards like the good old days rather than silently slipping in.

Another part of me wants to find a Shimano 6206 triple crank to put on the (otherwise 600EX) bike in place of the Veloce. But availability of the 110/74 chainrings it takes is the main thing holding me back.

-Luns


Shift ramps and pins and such are necessary with modern
flat-face chain. Older rivet-sticks-out chain shifts
acceptably well, as JOerg notes, without them.

110 and 74mm rings are plentiful in USA (where are you?)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 11:11:48 AM UTC-7, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, March 31, 2021 at 10:07:48 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

We didn't have any of those fancy "shifting aids" in the 80's and I was
still able to shift gears :-)
I'd always been perfectly happy friction shifting front doubles without ramps and pins, but do wonder if I'd feel the same with a triple crank. I can imagine the middle chainring hiding in the shadow of the big ring when shifting up from the inner ring.

When I did finally go to a Campy Veloce triple crank, I found itits ramps and pins do their job quite well. Maybe a little too well: there are still times I look down to see if a front upshift completed or not since the shift goes so smooth I often don't hear it happen. At first, I was surprised how most of the time I had enough doubt to look, the shift had completed. Lately, I'm finding myself more frequently surprised when a shift didn't take.. I don't think anything's changed with the bike, just my own expectations.

Part of me is considering installing my middle ring out of phase so the ramps and pins don't work so smoothly. I'd imagine they'd still help with shifts, but being out of phase would let the chain clunk into place afterwards like the good old days rather than silently slipping in.

Another part of me wants to find a Shimano 6206 triple crank to put on the (otherwise 600EX) bike in place of the Veloce. But availability of the 110/74 chainrings it takes is the main thing holding me back.

-Luns
The Di2 shift from the small ring to the big ring is detectable only by the increase in power necessary to turn the cranks over.

On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 1:36:51 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 11:11:48 AM UTC-7, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, March 31, 2021 at 10:07:48 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

We didn't have any of those fancy "shifting aids" in the 80's and I was
still able to shift gears :-)
I'd always been perfectly happy friction shifting front doubles without ramps and pins, but do wonder if I'd feel the same with a triple crank. I can imagine the middle chainring hiding in the shadow of the big ring when shifting up from the inner ring.

When I did finally go to a Campy Veloce triple crank, I found itits ramps and pins do their job quite well. Maybe a little too well: there are still times I look down to see if a front upshift completed or not since the shift goes so smooth I often don't hear it happen. At first, I was surprised how most of the time I had enough doubt to look, the shift had completed. Lately, I'm finding myself more frequently surprised when a shift didn't take. I don't think anything's changed with the bike, just my own expectations.

Part of me is considering installing my middle ring out of phase so the ramps and pins don't work so smoothly. I'd imagine they'd still help with shifts, but being out of phase would let the chain clunk into place afterwards like the good old days rather than silently slipping in.

Another part of me wants to find a Shimano 6206 triple crank to put on the (otherwise 600EX) bike in place of the Veloce. But availability of the 110/74 chainrings it takes is the main thing holding me back.

-Luns
The Di2 shift from the small ring to the big ring is detectable only by the increase in power necessary to turn the cranks over.
Jeorge, spotted this on Craigslist and thought you might be interested. This stuff is New Old Stock and is 7400 series https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bop...295460552.html

On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 5:53:45 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Jeorge, spotted this on Craigslist and thought you might be interested. This stuff is New Old Stock and is 7400 series https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bop...295460552.html

Those prices seem more than a bit high to me. Even for California. But just in case they were accurate, I went down to the basement and looked through my parts boxes to see what treasures I might have. I am happy to report I have a 7402 Dura Ace crank arms 175mm in pretty good condition. And a 7701 Dura Ace crankset with 53-39 rings 172.5mm in scuffed up condition. I'm happy to take any and all offers.

On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 1:01:27 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
Shift ramps and pins and such are necessary with modern
flat-face chain. Older rivet-sticks-out chain shifts
acceptably well, as JOerg notes, without them.

That's a good point. I'm just glad that the spacing between chainrings on my 10s Veloce crank seems to work just fine with the 8s chain I use. The chainrings, as with on the 600EX crank before it, wear a spray of scratches on the inner face from upshifts. Not that it matters, but I do wonder if the modern flat-face chains are kinder on the chainrings than the rivets of older chains.

110 and 74mm rings are plentiful in USA (where are you?)

Perhaps I should have been more specific. I have a few constraints, which I haven't been able to simultaneously meet. I could compromise, but staying with my existing crank is already a very acceptable compromise that's very tough to beat. I'm looking for:

1) Matched ramp/pinned 52/42/30 rings. These are common in 130/74, but in 110/74, I don't see 52/42/30 sets, only individual rings. A la carte, the rings aren't necessarily optimized to each other they way original sets are. I'm sure they still work just fine, and I know I just said I was toying with the thought of undermining this very feature on my current crank, but I'd like to keep the current quiet shifts available as an option.

2) Aesthetics: I want the transition from bolt hole to the ring to be the classic V flare rather than the more brutal straight T junction that some more modern rings use.

3) Price. The individual Sugino and TA rings I've seen for sale add up to twice what I paid for my then-new Campy crank, rings included. This same matter being what led Joerg to buy a crank just for its rings, I'd like to find a 110/74 52/42/30 crank to harvest rings from, but haven't found such an animal.

I'm in Berkeley CA, and chatting with the buyer for the local bike Co-Op, he bemoaned how suddenly once abundant parts can suddenly vanish. I forgot how this came about - it may have been my own observations buying a 7-speed HG50 cassette around when they were discontinued - but I recall him saying he was surprised how suddenly certain chainrings became unavailable, and that he would have stocked up on more if only he had known. I somehow remembered the anecdote as referring to 110/74, but not being in the market for said rings at the time could well remember wrong - maybe he was talking about 54mm instead.

On 4/2/2021 1:23 AM, Luns Tee wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 1:01:27 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
Shift ramps and pins and such are necessary with modern
flat-face chain. Older rivet-sticks-out chain shifts
acceptably well, as JOerg notes, without them.

That's a good point. I'm just glad that the spacing between chainrings on my 10s Veloce crank seems to work just fine with the 8s chain I use. The chainrings, as with on the 600EX crank before it, wear a spray of scratches on the inner face from upshifts. Not that it matters, but I do wonder if the modern flat-face chains are kinder on the chainrings than the rivets of older chains.

110 and 74mm rings are plentiful in USA (where are you?)

Perhaps I should have been more specific. I have a few constraints, which I haven't been able to simultaneously meet. I could compromise, but staying with my existing crank is already a very acceptable compromise that's very tough to beat. I'm looking for:

1) Matched ramp/pinned 52/42/30 rings. These are common in 130/74, but in 110/74, I don't see 52/42/30 sets, only individual rings. A la carte, the rings aren't necessarily optimized to each other they way original sets are. I'm sure they still work just fine, and I know I just said I was toying with the thought of undermining this very feature on my current crank, but I'd like to keep the current quiet shifts available as an option.

2) Aesthetics: I want the transition from bolt hole to the ring to be the classic V flare rather than the more brutal straight T junction that some more modern rings use.

3) Price. The individual Sugino and TA rings I've seen for sale add up to twice what I paid for my then-new Campy crank, rings included. This same matter being what led Joerg to buy a crank just for its rings, I'd like to find a 110/74 52/42/30 crank to harvest rings from, but haven't found such an animal.

I'm in Berkeley CA, and chatting with the buyer for the local bike Co-Op, he bemoaned how suddenly once abundant parts can suddenly vanish. I forgot how this came about - it may have been my own observations buying a 7-speed HG50 cassette around when they were discontinued - but I recall him saying he was surprised how suddenly certain chainrings became unavailable, and that he would have stocked up on more if only he had known. I somehow remembered the anecdote as referring to 110/74, but not being in the market for said rings at the time could well remember wrong - maybe he was talking about 54mm instead.


You're right about 110/74 cranks and ring sets being mostly
26.36.48.
For 52.42.30 go Campagnolo. New in box Race Triples $149.95,
black with steel rings. Not more than three decent chainrings.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/1/21 3:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 1:36:51 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 11:11:48 AM UTC-7, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, March 31, 2021 at 10:07:48 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

We didn't have any of those fancy "shifting aids" in the 80's and I was
still able to shift gears :-)
I'd always been perfectly happy friction shifting front doubles without ramps and pins, but do wonder if I'd feel the same with a triple crank. I can imagine the middle chainring hiding in the shadow of the big ring when shifting up from the inner ring.

When I did finally go to a Campy Veloce triple crank, I found itits ramps and pins do their job quite well. Maybe a little too well: there are still times I look down to see if a front upshift completed or not since the shift goes so smooth I often don't hear it happen. At first, I was surprised how most of the time I had enough doubt to look, the shift had completed. Lately, I'm finding myself more frequently surprised when a shift didn't take. I don't think anything's changed with the bike, just my own expectations.

Part of me is considering installing my middle ring out of phase so the ramps and pins don't work so smoothly. I'd imagine they'd still help with shifts, but being out of phase would let the chain clunk into place afterwards like the good old days rather than silently slipping in.

Another part of me wants to find a Shimano 6206 triple crank to put on the (otherwise 600EX) bike in place of the Veloce. But availability of the 110/74 chainrings it takes is the main thing holding me back.

-Luns
The Di2 shift from the small ring to the big ring is detectable only by the increase in power necessary to turn the cranks over.
Jeorge, spotted this on Craigslist and thought you might be interested. This stuff is New Old Stock and is 7400 series https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bop...295460552.html



350 bucks? Nah. I'll keep looking for another crank set to scavenge the
chain rings from and recycle the cranks.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 4/1/21 7:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

[...]

If I recall, you can get 130 mm rings from FSA for a more than reasonable price.


$50 for just the inner ring is a bit much considering that it's aluminum
and won't last long:

https://www.amazon.com/FSA-Chainring...dp/B002P79N18/

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/