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#121
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Safety inflation
On 4/4/2021 10:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
I'm not yelling at you although I do get tired of the incessant "safety inflation" rant when people buy something that makes it easier for them to ride... I think "safety inflation" is real. It applies not only to bicycles, it's pervasive in modern American society; I can probably give dozens of examples. I own books on related topics. But it certainly does apply to bicycles and bicycling, in many ways that have nothing to do with making it easier to ride. Again, I can give examples, although you can certainly think of them yourself. I don't know why this observation is so distasteful to you. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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#122
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Eyc headlight problem
On 4/4/2021 11:58 AM, sms wrote:
On 4/4/2021 7:34 AM, jbeattie wrote: snip Personally, I don't care if someone wants more light that a dyno produces, so long as it is pointed down, and the output is reduced in shared facilities.Â* Those things are possible but just not practiced. All cars come with high-beams, and we don't run around ranting about high beams and how low beams should be enough.Â* Instead, we criticize people who are constantly running high beams when it is unnecessary -- like in the MV version of a flat bike lane on a well-lighted street with on-coming traffic. Some sort of automatic dimming when there are approaching bicycles on a narrow path would be nice. For wider roads, the cyclists will be toward the right and if the light is properly aimed it won't be shining in the eyes of oncoming traffic, whether bicycles or cars. Except some people now call for bi-directional "cycletracks" at one side of city streets. In that case, unthinking cyclists with hot, glaring round beams will blind both oncoming cyclists and motorists. It's the multi-use paths where I have an issue with dynamo lights. These paths often have a lot of twists and turns as they navigate between freeways, across railroad tracks, and over waterways. Some of the overcrossings are not straight ramps but circular ramps. Some turns are so sharp that they've installed mirrors so you can see oncoming bicycles and pedestrians. Speeds are slow in many instances and the dynamo output is too low for night riding on these paths. My LED dyno lights give sufficient illumination down below walking speed. If yours don't, you must be still using a halogen headlamp. (If not, please tell us what you are using.) Regarding tight turns in the dark: It's a minor problem, not a large or difficult one. Dyno driven LEDs have plenty of excess lumens now. Fancier optics and/or one or two side-firing LEDs could cure that problem immediately. The fact that this hasn't been done may indicate how few customers are bothered by it. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#123
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Safety inflation
Op zondag 4 april 2021 om 18:16:52 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 4/4/2021 10:34 AM, jbeattie wrote: I'm not yelling at you although I do get tired of the incessant "safety inflation" rant when people buy something that makes it easier for them to ride... I think "safety inflation" is real. It applies not only to bicycles, it's pervasive in modern American society; I can probably give dozens of examples. I own books on related topics. But it certainly does apply to bicycles and bicycling, in many ways that have nothing to do with making it easier to ride. Again, I can give examples, although you can certainly think of them yourself. I don't know why this observation is so distasteful to you. -- - Frank Krygowski As someone who is perfectly OK with my dynohub light system I can understand that people have different needs. Bad night vision, climbs, down hills, lot of light distraction. As long as they don't blind other road users I don't mind other people use different and/or mor powerfull light systems. Maybe you should do the same. Lou |
#124
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Eyc headlight problem
On Sunday, April 4, 2021 at 10:34:26 a.m. UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 4, 2021 at 6:45:00 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/3/2021 8:13 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, April 3, 2021 at 4:32:13 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/3/2021 12:57 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I think it was Jay Beattie who suggested the 800 lumen number. I merely stole it from him. I agree that 800 lumens probably too much.. However, if such a high power dynamo product ever arrives on the market, there will surely be a lumens war among vendors to see who can advertise the largest number. At that time, 800 lumens will reserved for purists and regulatory agencies. Yep, safety inflation is real. Since when is being able to see "safety inflation"? Let's go for a night ride sometime, you and your bottle dyno and light, and me and my whatever light I chose. Fine. We'll do it around here, where the people I have ridden night rides with all have had lights far less capable than those I use. Somehow they think they can see with theirs. But they tell me they see better with mine. Here's the problem, Jay. "Seeing" is not a binary condition. One can see better or not as well, depending on various factors - and lumen count is only one of those factors. It's silly to claim a certain number of lumens is necessary for everybody. (It's even sillier to claim a certain number of Watts is necessary, as some others do.) And demanding ever-increasing numbers _is_ safety inflation. Were you riding at night ten years ago? 20 years ago? Were you really using 800 lumens then? On flat roads and the bike path through South Waterfront I can get by with a little flea-watt flasher or a clip on flashlight from 1968 -- or my old Wonder Light. But that is not where I do (or did pre DST) most of my riding. Everything involves a descent, often on old broken concrete roads. I've done those on dyno only, and its inadequate except at a creeping pace. Yes, I get that. You ride single track through forests, you climb stairs carrying your bike, you have immensely steep hills and get off and walk, you have to duck under twigs. I'm not denying that you're a hero. But claiming or accepting that you're a hero comes with acknowledging that most others are not! You keep ignoring that I've said many times that dyno systems are not what's best for off-road stuff. Could you please acknowledge that I've said that, and move on? Then maybe we could restrict our discussion to the conditions in which almost all cyclists actually ride. Almost all bicyclists - even regular commuters - ride much more normal routes and surfaces. They don't climb 20% grades on forest paths. They don't need 800 lumens to see. They don't go blind with 750 lumens, or even 75. Many of them actually use "flea watt" lights. Perhaps instead of yelling at me, you should be yelling at them? "GET 800 LUMENS!!" I'm not yelling at you although I do get tired of the incessant "safety inflation" rant when people buy something that makes it easier for them to ride -- and the implied or overt put-down of anyone who does not ride like you or use your equipment. Oh, and the incessant stories of the unique old guy with [fill in the blank old technology] who beat the uppity racer. Hey, I know a racer who rode a 24 hour race and kicked everybody's ass -- including old bearded guys with dynos. And I don't know what type of riding most people do, and it really doesn't matter. I know what I do, and I know that my riding is not unique. Unlike you, I am not prescribing a light for anyone but me. And the deal with an 800 lumen light (which is not terribly bright) is that it is also a 300 and 500 lumen light -- and a flasher. A lot of high lumen lights are purchased because they have 4 hour run times at 300 lumens. They're cheap, simple and light. Personally, I don't care if someone wants more light that a dyno produces, so long as it is pointed down, and the output is reduced in shared facilities. Those things are possible but just not practiced. All cars come with high-beams, and we don't run around ranting about high beams and how low beams should be enough. Instead, we criticize people who are constantly running high beams when it is unnecessary -- like in the MV version of a flat bike lane on a well-lighted street with on-coming traffic. -- Jay Beattie. Precisely why I bought the external battery powered light that I did. On t he lowest setting I get a very long run time. Even on the middle setting I get a good run time. Another great thing about it is that I can see the road even if I'm crawling up a steep hill or stopped. A big plus too is that I can switch that light over to a different bike if I want to. Cheers |
#125
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Safety inflation
On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 12:16:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/4/2021 10:34 AM, jbeattie wrote: I'm not yelling at you although I do get tired of the incessant "safety inflation" rant when people buy something that makes it easier for them to ride... I think "safety inflation" is real. It applies not only to bicycles, it's pervasive in modern American society; I can probably give dozens of examples. I own books on related topics. But it certainly does apply to bicycles and bicycling, in many ways that have nothing to do with making it easier to ride. Again, I can give examples, although you can certainly think of them yourself. I don't know why this observation is so distasteful to you. A question comes to mind here. If special paths/roads/call 'em what you like, are necessary for the safety of cyclists isn't it proof that the public highways are dangerious for cyclists? The question viewed from the opposite direction is "if public roads/etc., are safe for cyclists are special bike paths necessary?" -- Cheers, John B. |
#126
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Eyc headlight problem
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#127
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Safety inflation
On 4/4/2021 5:32 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 12:16:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2021 10:34 AM, jbeattie wrote: I'm not yelling at you although I do get tired of the incessant "safety inflation" rant when people buy something that makes it easier for them to ride... I think "safety inflation" is real. It applies not only to bicycles, it's pervasive in modern American society; I can probably give dozens of examples. I own books on related topics. But it certainly does apply to bicycles and bicycling, in many ways that have nothing to do with making it easier to ride. Again, I can give examples, although you can certainly think of them yourself. I don't know why this observation is so distasteful to you. A question comes to mind here. If special paths/roads/call 'em what you like, are necessary for the safety of cyclists isn't it proof that the public highways are dangerious for cyclists? The question viewed from the opposite direction is "if public roads/etc., are safe for cyclists are special bike paths necessary?" +1, exactly. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#128
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Safety inflation
On 4/4/2021 2:00 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 4 april 2021 om 18:16:52 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski: On 4/4/2021 10:34 AM, jbeattie wrote: I'm not yelling at you although I do get tired of the incessant "safety inflation" rant when people buy something that makes it easier for them to ride... I think "safety inflation" is real. It applies not only to bicycles, it's pervasive in modern American society; I can probably give dozens of examples. I own books on related topics. But it certainly does apply to bicycles and bicycling, in many ways that have nothing to do with making it easier to ride. Again, I can give examples, although you can certainly think of them yourself. I don't know why this observation is so distasteful to you. -- - Frank Krygowski As someone who is perfectly OK with my dynohub light system I can understand that people have different needs. Bad night vision, climbs, down hills, lot of light distraction. As long as they don't blind other road users I don't mind other people use different and/or mor powerfull light systems. Maybe you should do the same. Lou, I have never said I mind anybody using systems other than mine, IF they don't dazzle other road users. What I mind is people saying my system or similar systems can't be any good. Jay mocks them as "mood lights" good only for slow level riding. Scharf claims road cyclists get injured by tree branches due to StVZO standards, or claims that he can't see when riding at low speed. Those claims are false, and that's what I'm saying. If you're complaining about intolerance, you're complaining about the wrong people. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#129
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Safety inflation
On 4/4/2021 6:32 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 12:16:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2021 10:34 AM, jbeattie wrote: I'm not yelling at you although I do get tired of the incessant "safety inflation" rant when people buy something that makes it easier for them to ride... I think "safety inflation" is real. It applies not only to bicycles, it's pervasive in modern American society; I can probably give dozens of examples. I own books on related topics. But it certainly does apply to bicycles and bicycling, in many ways that have nothing to do with making it easier to ride. Again, I can give examples, although you can certainly think of them yourself. I don't know why this observation is so distasteful to you. A question comes to mind here. If special paths/roads/call 'em what you like, are necessary for the safety of cyclists isn't it proof that the public highways are dangerious for cyclists? That's what a certain cohort would have you believe. And it's generally false. Yes, there are dangerous roads; but most roads are quite safe for cycling. The question viewed from the opposite direction is "if public roads/etc., are safe for cyclists are special bike paths necessary?" Most such facilities are not necessary. Many are worse than normal roads. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#130
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Safety inflation
On 4/4/2021 6:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2021 6:32 PM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 12:16:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2021 10:34 AM, jbeattie wrote: I'm not yelling at you although I do get tired of the incessant "safety inflation" rant when people buy something that makes it easier for them to ride... I think "safety inflation" is real. It applies not only to bicycles, it's pervasive in modern American society; I can probably give dozens of examples. I own books on related topics. But it certainly does apply to bicycles and bicycling, in many ways that have nothing to do with making it easier to ride. Again, I can give examples, although you can certainly think of them yourself. I don't know why this observation is so distasteful to you. A question comes to mind here. If special paths/roads/call 'em what you like, are necessary for the safety of cyclists isn't it proof that the public highways are dangerious for cyclists? That's what a certain cohort would have you believe. And it's generally false. Yes, there are dangerous roads; but most roads are quite safe for cycling. The question viewed from the opposite direction is "if public roads/etc., are safe for cyclists are special bike paths necessary?" Most such facilities are not necessary. Many are worse than normal roads. I believe this site is no longer updated for reasons other than any lack of new examples: http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of.../March2019.htm -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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