Prayer request

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 7:58:07 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 3:08:05 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 11:52:55 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
It grieves me about all the violence occurring as the result of many police
activities resulting in the deaths of people in the U.S.

Killing of innocent people by police is evil.

Great though they may be, God actively restrains the test and temptations that come our way so that we will not experience anything greater than we can bear.
(see 1 Corinthians 10:13)

Fatal car and airplane accidents bring awful devastation, but statistically these are rare. On January 15, 2009, what should have brought certain death to passengers aboard Flight 1549, and catastrophe to Manhattan, turned into what secular reporters labeled a "miracle". The pilot, Chesley Sullenbeger, safely landed a crippled plane in New York's Hudson river, with no serious injuries.

While chunks of ice and busy ferries filled most of the river, the place where the plane came down remained clear of both ice and boats. It landed without breaking apart.

Ferryboat captains rescued all 155 people from the frigid river within minutes.

The New York Times suggested "more than luck" brought brought the plane down
mere minutes from experts trained in water rescues. Passengers who said they hadn't believed in God nevertheless prayed to him on the plane, then publicly thanked him for sparing their lives.

I tell this story to raise a question. Is it not likely that a kind and all powerful God routinely prevents terrible tragedies in ways that we do not see and therefore do not credit as miracles?

While the miracle of Flight 1549 appears to be the exception, not the rule, we cannot know about the most of the equally miraculous interventions of God that
may have invisibly prevented other tragedies. Perhaps one day we'll hear those stories and marvel at how God intervened when we imagined him uninvolved in our world.

I ask that you pray that people will realize that their Creator loves them.

Thanks,
Andy

Well being the Deacon ordain now 13 years I will pray regardless of what the others think. Seems to be a lot of folks these days who don't believe in a God or a higher power even. I tell you I have to keep pray as it relates to bikes because they are dangerous for sure at times and provide transportation. The world needs prayer and the Lord's assistance right now too.

I sometimes have been know in the very middle of ride to start praying a Hail Mary or Our Father. It to me is really an amazement that one cannot believe in the absolute truth and that it exist. Accidents just don't happen. Imagine you are out on a long ride 50 miles from anywhere and you have a broken chain and no spare. Surely because things just happen if wait long enough chain will simply manage to appear out of randomness. Like creation and the known exist "just happen."

I can't buy the logic but as it relates to bikes I still think you need plan ahead because is going to be along wait for the chain to show up.

Deacon Mark ( contemplating priesthood) oh my I have flipped.

The Democrat Party has been pushing the idea that there should be no religion in government. And yet this country was founded on the Christian religion even to the point where we have "In God We Trust" on our very money. "One Nation under God, with liberty and justice for all" seems to have been replaced with Black Lives Matter.

I think it far more likely that we are going to see a rebirth of Christianity than more Sodom and Gomorrah.

"In God We Trust" was added to US paper currency in 1956 during the Eisenhower administration, along with "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. All this God stuff is of fairly recent origin, although it was on coins starting after the Civil War according to internet sources. The founding fathers oscillated on the issue, but clearly created a secular FEDERAL government. The colonies and then states were doing their own thing, many enforcing religion. https://gunculture2point0.wordpress....onial-america/ You'd totally dig colonial Virginia. Mandatory church attendance with your gun. There was more religious freedom by the early 1800s, which may account for all the odd-ball new protestant religions that sprang up about that time. Something to consider. I'm hoping for a rebirth of Zoroastrianism or maybe Hare Krishna for the easy DYI COVID-19 haircut.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 8:58:16 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 7:58:07 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 3:08:05 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 11:52:55 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
It grieves me about all the violence occurring as the result of many police
activities resulting in the deaths of people in the U.S.

Killing of innocent people by police is evil.

Great though they may be, God actively restrains the test and temptations that come our way so that we will not experience anything greater than we can bear.
(see 1 Corinthians 10:13)

Fatal car and airplane accidents bring awful devastation, but statistically these are rare. On January 15, 2009, what should have brought certain death to passengers aboard Flight 1549, and catastrophe to Manhattan, turned into what secular reporters labeled a "miracle". The pilot, Chesley Sullenbeger, safely landed a crippled plane in New York's Hudson river, with no serious injuries.

While chunks of ice and busy ferries filled most of the river, the place where the plane came down remained clear of both ice and boats. It landed without breaking apart.

Ferryboat captains rescued all 155 people from the frigid river within minutes.

The New York Times suggested "more than luck" brought brought the plane down
mere minutes from experts trained in water rescues. Passengers who said they hadn't believed in God nevertheless prayed to him on the plane, then publicly thanked him for sparing their lives.

I tell this story to raise a question. Is it not likely that a kind and all powerful God routinely prevents terrible tragedies in ways that we do not see and therefore do not credit as miracles?

While the miracle of Flight 1549 appears to be the exception, not the rule, we cannot know about the most of the equally miraculous interventions of God that
may have invisibly prevented other tragedies. Perhaps one day we'll hear those stories and marvel at how God intervened when we imagined him uninvolved in our world.

I ask that you pray that people will realize that their Creator loves them.

Thanks,
Andy

Well being the Deacon ordain now 13 years I will pray regardless of what the others think. Seems to be a lot of folks these days who don't believe in a God or a higher power even. I tell you I have to keep pray as it relates to bikes because they are dangerous for sure at times and provide transportation. The world needs prayer and the Lord's assistance right now too..

I sometimes have been know in the very middle of ride to start praying a Hail Mary or Our Father. It to me is really an amazement that one cannot believe in the absolute truth and that it exist. Accidents just don't happen. Imagine you are out on a long ride 50 miles from anywhere and you have a broken chain and no spare. Surely because things just happen if wait long enough chain will simply manage to appear out of randomness. Like creation and the known exist "just happen."

I can't buy the logic but as it relates to bikes I still think you need plan ahead because is going to be along wait for the chain to show up.

Deacon Mark ( contemplating priesthood) oh my I have flipped.

The Democrat Party has been pushing the idea that there should be no religion in government. And yet this country was founded on the Christian religion even to the point where we have "In God We Trust" on our very money. "One Nation under God, with liberty and justice for all" seems to have been replaced with Black Lives Matter.

I think it far more likely that we are going to see a rebirth of Christianity than more Sodom and Gomorrah.

"In God We Trust" was added to US paper currency in 1956 during the Eisenhower administration, along with "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. All this God stuff is of fairly recent origin, although it was on coins starting after the Civil War according to internet sources. The founding fathers oscillated on the issue, but clearly created a secular FEDERAL government. The colonies and then states were doing their own thing, many enforcing religion. https://gunculture2point0.wordpress....onial-america/ You'd totally dig colonial Virginia. Mandatory church attendance with your gun. There was more religious freedom by the early 1800s, which may account for all the odd-ball new protestant religions that sprang up about that time. Something to consider. I'm hoping for a rebirth of Zoroastrianism or maybe Hare Krishna for the easy DYI COVID-19 haircut.

-- Jay Beattie.

Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."?

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia?

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772?

"God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle." - George Washington

"In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783)

"With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775

Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day.

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 8:58:16 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 7:58:07 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 3:08:05 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 11:52:55 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
It grieves me about all the violence occurring as the result of many police
activities resulting in the deaths of people in the U.S.

Killing of innocent people by police is evil.

Great though they may be, God actively restrains the test and temptations that come our way so that we will not experience anything greater than we can bear.
(see 1 Corinthians 10:13)

Fatal car and airplane accidents bring awful devastation, but statistically these are rare. On January 15, 2009, what should have brought certain death to passengers aboard Flight 1549, and catastrophe to Manhattan, turned into what secular reporters labeled a "miracle". The pilot, Chesley Sullenbeger, safely landed a crippled plane in New York's Hudson river, with no serious injuries.

While chunks of ice and busy ferries filled most of the river, the place where the plane came down remained clear of both ice and boats. It landed without breaking apart.

Ferryboat captains rescued all 155 people from the frigid river within minutes.

The New York Times suggested "more than luck" brought brought the plane down
mere minutes from experts trained in water rescues. Passengers who said they hadn't believed in God nevertheless prayed to him on the plane, then publicly thanked him for sparing their lives.

I tell this story to raise a question. Is it not likely that a kind and all powerful God routinely prevents terrible tragedies in ways that we do not see and therefore do not credit as miracles?

While the miracle of Flight 1549 appears to be the exception, not the rule, we cannot know about the most of the equally miraculous interventions of God that
may have invisibly prevented other tragedies. Perhaps one day we'll hear those stories and marvel at how God intervened when we imagined him uninvolved in our world.

I ask that you pray that people will realize that their Creator loves them.

Thanks,
Andy

Well being the Deacon ordain now 13 years I will pray regardless of what the others think. Seems to be a lot of folks these days who don't believe in a God or a higher power even. I tell you I have to keep pray as it relates to bikes because they are dangerous for sure at times and provide transportation. The world needs prayer and the Lord's assistance right now too.

I sometimes have been know in the very middle of ride to start praying a Hail Mary or Our Father. It to me is really an amazement that one cannot believe in the absolute truth and that it exist. Accidents just don't happen. Imagine you are out on a long ride 50 miles from anywhere and you have a broken chain and no spare. Surely because things just happen if wait long enough chain will simply manage to appear out of randomness. Like creation and the known exist "just happen."

I can't buy the logic but as it relates to bikes I still think you need plan ahead because is going to be along wait for the chain to show up.

Deacon Mark ( contemplating priesthood) oh my I have flipped.

The Democrat Party has been pushing the idea that there should be no religion in government. And yet this country was founded on the Christian religion even to the point where we have "In God We Trust" on our very money.. "One Nation under God, with liberty and justice for all" seems to have been replaced with Black Lives Matter.

I think it far more likely that we are going to see a rebirth of Christianity than more Sodom and Gomorrah.

"In God We Trust" was added to US paper currency in 1956 during the Eisenhower administration, along with "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. All this God stuff is of fairly recent origin, although it was on coins starting after the Civil War according to internet sources. The founding fathers oscillated on the issue, but clearly created a secular FEDERAL government. The colonies and then states were doing their own thing, many enforcing religion. https://gunculture2point0.wordpress....onial-america/ You'd totally dig colonial Virginia. Mandatory church attendance with your gun. There was more religious freedom by the early 1800s, which may account for all the odd-ball new protestant religions that sprang up about that time. Something to consider. I'm hoping for a rebirth of Zoroastrianism or maybe Hare Krishna for the easy DYI COVID-19 haircut.

-- Jay Beattie.

Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."?

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia?

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772?

"God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle." - George Washington

"In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783)

"With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775

Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day.


Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson, your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and state and was even called an infidel. I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either. Anyway, see: https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...igious-freedom

And note: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-C..._United_States The fouding fathers were not your friends, nor was your political party..

Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa. I can just hear Muzi complaining about the Federal hymnal. "We're here to help you sing." "Let's all sing hymn 26 CFR Section 203.1(a)(iii)(B)(3), starting at clause six." Go to Saudi Arabia and get an idea of what a theocracy is like. You'd be screaming about the bike shops closing at noon prayer, which they must by law.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 11:49:02 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 8:58:16 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 7:58:07 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 3:08:05 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 11:52:55 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
It grieves me about all the violence occurring as the result of many police
activities resulting in the deaths of people in the U.S.

Killing of innocent people by police is evil.

Great though they may be, God actively restrains the test and temptations that come our way so that we will not experience anything greater than we can bear.
(see 1 Corinthians 10:13)

Fatal car and airplane accidents bring awful devastation, but statistically these are rare. On January 15, 2009, what should have brought certain death to passengers aboard Flight 1549, and catastrophe to Manhattan, turned into what secular reporters labeled a "miracle". The pilot, Chesley Sullenbeger, safely landed a crippled plane in New York's Hudson river, with no serious injuries.

While chunks of ice and busy ferries filled most of the river, the place where the plane came down remained clear of both ice and boats. It landed without breaking apart.

Ferryboat captains rescued all 155 people from the frigid river within minutes.

The New York Times suggested "more than luck" brought brought the plane down
mere minutes from experts trained in water rescues. Passengers who said they hadn't believed in God nevertheless prayed to him on the plane, then publicly thanked him for sparing their lives.

I tell this story to raise a question. Is it not likely that a kind and all powerful God routinely prevents terrible tragedies in ways that we do not see and therefore do not credit as miracles?

While the miracle of Flight 1549 appears to be the exception, not the rule, we cannot know about the most of the equally miraculous interventions of God that
may have invisibly prevented other tragedies. Perhaps one day we'll hear those stories and marvel at how God intervened when we imagined him uninvolved in our world.

I ask that you pray that people will realize that their Creator loves them.

Thanks,
Andy

Well being the Deacon ordain now 13 years I will pray regardless of what the others think. Seems to be a lot of folks these days who don't believe in a God or a higher power even. I tell you I have to keep pray as it relates to bikes because they are dangerous for sure at times and provide transportation. The world needs prayer and the Lord's assistance right now too.

I sometimes have been know in the very middle of ride to start praying a Hail Mary or Our Father. It to me is really an amazement that one cannot believe in the absolute truth and that it exist. Accidents just don't happen. Imagine you are out on a long ride 50 miles from anywhere and you have a broken chain and no spare. Surely because things just happen if wait long enough chain will simply manage to appear out of randomness. Like creation and the known exist "just happen."

I can't buy the logic but as it relates to bikes I still think you need plan ahead because is going to be along wait for the chain to show up.

Deacon Mark ( contemplating priesthood) oh my I have flipped.

The Democrat Party has been pushing the idea that there should be no religion in government. And yet this country was founded on the Christian religion even to the point where we have "In God We Trust" on our very money. "One Nation under God, with liberty and justice for all" seems to have been replaced with Black Lives Matter.

I think it far more likely that we are going to see a rebirth of Christianity than more Sodom and Gomorrah.

"In God We Trust" was added to US paper currency in 1956 during the Eisenhower administration, along with "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. All this God stuff is of fairly recent origin, although it was on coins starting after the Civil War according to internet sources. The founding fathers oscillated on the issue, but clearly created a secular FEDERAL government. The colonies and then states were doing their own thing, many enforcing religion. https://gunculture2point0.wordpress....onial-america/ You'd totally dig colonial Virginia. Mandatory church attendance with your gun. There was more religious freedom by the early 1800s, which may account for all the odd-ball new protestant religions that sprang up about that time. Something to consider. I'm hoping for a rebirth of Zoroastrianism or maybe Hare Krishna for the easy DYI COVID-19 haircut.

-- Jay Beattie.

Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."?

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia?

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772?

"God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle." - George Washington

"In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783)

"With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775

Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day.


Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson, your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and state and was even called an infidel. I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either. Anyway, see: https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...igious-freedom

And note: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-C..._United_States The fouding fathers were not your friends, nor was your political party.

Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa. I can just hear Muzi complaining about the Federal hymnal. "We're here to help you sing." "Let's all sing hymn 26 CFR Section 203.1(a)(iii)(B)(3), starting at clause six." Go to Saudi Arabia and get an idea of what a theocracy is like. You'd be screaming about the bike shops closing at noon prayer, which they must by law.

-- Jay Beattie.

We're in complete agreement that the government is secular but it is not blind or is not suppose to be to religion or it would not be protected under the Constitution. But it is not being treated as protected but as forbidden..

On 6/17/2020 2:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:

Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."?

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia?

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772?

"God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle." - George Washington

"In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783)

"With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775

Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day.


Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson, your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and state and was even called an infidel.

Of course, there are various opinions about what Jefferson believed. You're correct about his thoughts on Jesus, but "Deist" currently implies some things he probably didn't accept. And then you have to account for his (like anyone's) changing beliefs over time.

I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either..

I doubt very much that we can ever understand what really went on there. Relationships are incredibly complex in modern times with modern mores. They were no less complex back then.

Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa.

OK, something I don't quite understand: Among many other "sins," the government defines murder as being its business. But as I understand it, there are religious sects that have condoned murder, or at least killing of certain individuals; and not just in easy cases like self defense. This has been true in at least some situations for at least some Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other sects or sub-sects.

But of course, there's disagreement. Most religions do not condone murder. Some oppose even capital punishment.

So if our government says "You can't murder people," isn't that adopting a certain religious viewpoint and disregarding another?

We could ask (or could have asked) the same question regarding stores opening on Sunday, liquor sales, polygamy, some types of gambling, child marriage, homosexual acts and more.

Isn't "good" vs. "bad" often a judgment based on religious views?

- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 3:11:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/17/2020 2:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:

Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."?

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia?

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772?

"God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle.." - George Washington

"In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783)

"With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775

Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day.


Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson, your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and state and was even called an infidel.

Of course, there are various opinions about what Jefferson believed. You're correct about his thoughts on Jesus, but "Deist" currently implies some things he probably didn't accept. And then you have to account for his (like anyone's) changing beliefs over time.

I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either.

I doubt very much that we can ever understand what really went on there. Relationships are incredibly complex in modern times with modern mores. They were no less complex back then.

Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa.

OK, something I don't quite understand: Among many other "sins," the government defines murder as being its business. But as I understand it, there are religious sects that have condoned murder, or at least killing of certain individuals; and not just in easy cases like self defense. This has been true in at least some situations for at least some Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other sects or sub-sects.

But of course, there's disagreement. Most religions do not condone murder.. Some oppose even capital punishment.

So if our government says "You can't murder people," isn't that adopting a certain religious viewpoint and disregarding another?

We could ask (or could have asked) the same question regarding stores opening on Sunday, liquor sales, polygamy, some types of gambling, child marriage, homosexual acts and more.

Isn't "good" vs. "bad" often a judgment based on religious views?

Yes, but that's not establishing religion or dictating how we worship -- or what we worship, at least not in the First Amendment sense. Even Sunday laws are constitutional so long as they can be justified on non-religious grounds, which they can (and were). To the extent they infringe on other protected rights like association or privacy, they've been stricken down (miscegenation, homosexuality, various sexual practices, etc.). Most criminal laws fit with secular moral/ethical codes.

BTW, polygamy has been decriminalized in Utah. Woohoo! Now if they had 4% beer on tap.

On the bicycle front, my son informs me that COVID-19 demand has wiped out stock at Specialized, and they're basically out of bikes. He also went to the latest employee scratch and dent sale and got a boat load of stuff for basically nothing. It's mind-blowing. I hope he doesn't turn into some bicycle hoarder like his cohorts. One guy has like 30 bikes, which is too weird for me.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 3:31:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:

We're in complete agreement that the government is secular but it is not blind or is not suppose to be to religion or it would not be protected under the Constitution. But it is not being treated as protected but as forbidden.

The First Amendment "Establishment" and "Free Exercise" clauses mean that the government cannot advance one religion over another religion, or religion over non-religion. That's what a *secular* government is.

In 2005, Justice O’Connor, concurring with the majority’s conclusions in McCreary County v. ACLU, was more explicit:
“The Religion Clauses . . . protect adherents of all religions, as well as those who believe in no religion at all.� (https://www.atheists.org/legal/faq/first-amendment/)

On 6/17/2020 1:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 8:58:16 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 7:58:07 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 3:08:05 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 11:52:55 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
It grieves me about all the violence occurring as the result of many police
activities resulting in the deaths of people in the U.S.

Killing of innocent people by police is evil.

Great though they may be, God actively restrains the test and temptations that come our way so that we will not experience anything greater than we can bear.
(see 1 Corinthians 10:13)

Fatal car and airplane accidents bring awful devastation, but statistically these are rare. On January 15, 2009, what should have brought certain death to passengers aboard Flight 1549, and catastrophe to Manhattan, turned into what secular reporters labeled a "miracle". The pilot, Chesley Sullenbeger, safely landed a crippled plane in New York's Hudson river, with no serious injuries.

While chunks of ice and busy ferries filled most of the river, the place where the plane came down remained clear of both ice and boats. It landed without breaking apart.

Ferryboat captains rescued all 155 people from the frigid river within minutes.

The New York Times suggested "more than luck" brought brought the plane down
mere minutes from experts trained in water rescues. Passengers who said they hadn't believed in God nevertheless prayed to him on the plane, then publicly thanked him for sparing their lives.

I tell this story to raise a question. Is it not likely that a kind and all powerful God routinely prevents terrible tragedies in ways that we do not see and therefore do not credit as miracles?

While the miracle of Flight 1549 appears to be the exception, not the rule, we cannot know about the most of the equally miraculous interventions of God that
may have invisibly prevented other tragedies. Perhaps one day we'll hear those stories and marvel at how God intervened when we imagined him uninvolved in our world.

I ask that you pray that people will realize that their Creator loves them.

Thanks,
Andy

Well being the Deacon ordain now 13 years I will pray regardless of what the others think. Seems to be a lot of folks these days who don't believe in a God or a higher power even. I tell you I have to keep pray as it relates to bikes because they are dangerous for sure at times and provide transportation. The world needs prayer and the Lord's assistance right now too.

I sometimes have been know in the very middle of ride to start praying a Hail Mary or Our Father. It to me is really an amazement that one cannot believe in the absolute truth and that it exist. Accidents just don't happen. Imagine you are out on a long ride 50 miles from anywhere and you have a broken chain and no spare. Surely because things just happen if wait long enough chain will simply manage to appear out of randomness. Like creation and the known exist "just happen."

I can't buy the logic but as it relates to bikes I still think you need plan ahead because is going to be along wait for the chain to show up.

Deacon Mark ( contemplating priesthood) oh my I have flipped.

The Democrat Party has been pushing the idea that there should be no religion in government. And yet this country was founded on the Christian religion even to the point where we have "In God We Trust" on our very money. "One Nation under God, with liberty and justice for all" seems to have been replaced with Black Lives Matter.

I think it far more likely that we are going to see a rebirth of Christianity than more Sodom and Gomorrah.

"In God We Trust" was added to US paper currency in 1956 during the Eisenhower administration, along with "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. All this God stuff is of fairly recent origin, although it was on coins starting after the Civil War according to internet sources. The founding fathers oscillated on the issue, but clearly created a secular FEDERAL government. The colonies and then states were doing their own thing, many enforcing religion. https://gunculture2point0.wordpress....onial-america/ You'd totally dig colonial Virginia. Mandatory church attendance with your gun. There was more religious freedom by the early 1800s, which may account for all the odd-ball new protestant religions that sprang up about that time. Something to consider. I'm hoping for a rebirth of Zoroastrianism or maybe Hare Krishna for the easy DYI COVID-19 haircut.

-- Jay Beattie.

Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."?

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia?

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772?

"God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle." - George Washington

"In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783)

"With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775

Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day.


Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson, your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and state and was even called an infidel. I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either. Anyway, see: https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...igious-freedom

And note: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-C..._United_States The fouding fathers were not your friends, nor was your political party.

Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa. I can just hear Muzi complaining about the Federal hymnal. "We're here to help you sing." "Let's all sing hymn 26 CFR Section 203.1(a)(iii)(B)(3), starting at clause six." Go to Saudi Arabia and get an idea of what a theocracy is like. You'd be screaming about the bike shops closing at noon prayer, which they must by law.

-- Jay Beattie.


It's messy and convoluted.
Yes the Declaration invokes rights from the Creator.
Yes many Founders and their pals (Thomas Paine comes readily
to mind) hated the Anglican Church tax.

Jefferson made his 'separation' comment in a private letter
after leaving office - there's nothing official about it.

I much agree that the last thing you should want is a
government sponsored religion- the Saud Kingdom is a great
example but hardly the only one.

Given all that, we've come to a crazy place where crowds of
looters are released without bail and people at church are
ticketed. It seems the Loonie Left now views all religion as
evil except for moslems and communists. I'm uncomfortable
with all the present national discussion and would much
rather talk about closing Departments, chopping budgets and
actually draining that swamp (which continues to grow like
T*psy under every administration)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/17/2020 8:34 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 3:11:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/17/2020 2:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:

Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."?

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia?

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772?

"God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle." - George Washington

"In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783)

"With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775

Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day.


Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson, your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and state and was even called an infidel.

Of course, there are various opinions about what Jefferson believed. You're correct about his thoughts on Jesus, but "Deist" currently implies some things he probably didn't accept. And then you have to account for his (like anyone's) changing beliefs over time.

I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either.

I doubt very much that we can ever understand what really went on there. Relationships are incredibly complex in modern times with modern mores. They were no less complex back then.

Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa.

OK, something I don't quite understand: Among many other "sins," the government defines murder as being its business. But as I understand it, there are religious sects that have condoned murder, or at least killing of certain individuals; and not just in easy cases like self defense. This has been true in at least some situations for at least some Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other sects or sub-sects.

But of course, there's disagreement. Most religions do not condone murder. Some oppose even capital punishment.

So if our government says "You can't murder people," isn't that adopting a certain religious viewpoint and disregarding another?

We could ask (or could have asked) the same question regarding stores opening on Sunday, liquor sales, polygamy, some types of gambling, child marriage, homosexual acts and more.

Isn't "good" vs. "bad" often a judgment based on religious views?

Yes, but that's not establishing religion or dictating how we worship -- or what we worship, at least not in the First Amendment sense. ... Most criminal laws fit with secular moral/ethical codes.

I think you're sidestepping the question. What's the source of the
secular moral/ethical codes?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, June 18, 2020 at 8:35:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/17/2020 8:34 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 3:11:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/17/2020 2:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:

Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."?

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia?

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772?

"God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle." - George Washington

"In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783)

"With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775

Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day.


Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson, your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and state and was even called an infidel.

Of course, there are various opinions about what Jefferson believed. You're correct about his thoughts on Jesus, but "Deist" currently implies some things he probably didn't accept. And then you have to account for his (like anyone's) changing beliefs over time.

I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either.

I doubt very much that we can ever understand what really went on there. Relationships are incredibly complex in modern times with modern mores. They were no less complex back then.

Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa.

OK, something I don't quite understand: Among many other "sins," the government defines murder as being its business. But as I understand it, there are religious sects that have condoned murder, or at least killing of certain individuals; and not just in easy cases like self defense. This has been true in at least some situations for at least some Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other sects or sub-sects.

But of course, there's disagreement. Most religions do not condone murder. Some oppose even capital punishment.

So if our government says "You can't murder people," isn't that adopting a certain religious viewpoint and disregarding another?

We could ask (or could have asked) the same question regarding stores opening on Sunday, liquor sales, polygamy, some types of gambling, child marriage, homosexual acts and more.

Isn't "good" vs. "bad" often a judgment based on religious views?

Yes, but that's not establishing religion or dictating how we worship -- or what we worship, at least not in the First Amendment sense. ... Most criminal laws fit with secular moral/ethical codes.

I think you're sidestepping the question. What's the source of the
secular moral/ethical codes?


--
- Frank Krygowski

Sidestepping even further, what's the source of religion -- and what is the source of religious prohibitions?

In large part, religion is just the executive branch -- the enforcement mechanism for a lot of social norms, or even worse, the whims of those in power. Do you think Yahweh really gave hygiene tips to Moses? Yahweh had a thing about bodily discharges: http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bi...till%20evening

You know, if I were Yahweh, I'd be more of a big picture guy and maybe delegate the whole hygiene thing to one of my subordinates.

Worshiping another god will get you the death penalty (Exodus/Deuteronomy). That, I think, would present a constitutional problem. Imagine getting pulled over and hauled off for worshiping another god. Sales for Black Sabbath t-shirts would go down the toilet.

Anyway, secular laws may track religious prohibitions, but that doesn't make them religious. They represent a consensus opinion that existed long before any modern religion.

According to the wonderful world of WIKI, "One of the oldest-known prohibitions against murder appears in the Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu written sometime between 2100 and 2050 BC. The code states, "If a man commits a murder, that man must be killed." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder...e%20killed.%22

-- Jay Beattie.