Your gearing is obsolete

Am Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:16:37 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/25/2020 11:04 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Sun, 14 Jun 2020 12:56:00 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/14/2020 11:25 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:05:27 -0700 (PDT) schrieb :

I can't see
the fun in getting groceries by bike if you don't have to.

I don't see much fun in that, either.

Interesting. I actually do enjoy it. And once we're in the process of
doing it, so does my wife.

What I meant was: we don't enjoy shopping, by whatever means.

I agree, I don't enjoy the shopping. I do enjoy the ride, though. I've
chosen very pleasant neighborhood streets for the routes there and back.
And it's nice that it's uphill there when we're unloaded, and downhill
back with the load.

Also, all but a couple of the streets we use were freshly paved last
year. They are beautifully smooth!

Our two nearest supermarkets and some specialiced shops are about 500 m
away, getting to the inner town center takes about 1.5 km. So taking the
bike is essentially a question about how heavy the stuff to be bought
will be. Usually, we just walk.

And that's a big difference with America. To buy a bag of potatoes, we
have to do at least three miles round trip. (We actually do 6.2 miles by
choice for the pleasant roads.) There's a gas station and a pharmacy
that are closer, but the little food they sell is almost nothing but junk.
This one, in fact,
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lidl.de%2Fmedia%2Fproduct%2F0% 2F0%2F1%2F6%2F4%2F2%2F0%2Fprophete-nostalgierad-71-12-cm-28-zoll-3-gang-nabenschaltung-nabendynamo--8.jpg
or https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/prophete.jpg.

It isn't a good bike, but I was in a hurry when I bought it and it
wasn't expensive, either. These bikes go for about 250 EUR (~$280)
around here. Last but not least, it serves the purpose.

No baskets or bags?

Hey, this is a _catalog photo_ that I just grabbed from the web. For
whatever reason, I haven't had a reason to have a photo of that bike
online, yet. It's neither nice nor in any way remarkable. Except perhaps
for the two Ortlieb Backroller panniers. These are the old ones which
made Ortlieb famous when they still where young. As the saying goes, the
owner did the very first ones himself at home, from truck tarpaulin
(Lkwplane)

https://ortliebusa.com/product/back-...-classic-pair/

Mine don't have any of the fancy stuff - clickfix, inner pocket, middle
strap, just two simple hooks and a glued-on velcro tape on top, which
has to be reglued every two or three years.

As it seems, these haven't become cheaper and are still about as
expensive als the Prophete

Speaking about the bike, that's an actual picture taken a moment ago.

https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/prophete_ortlieb.jpg

Both panniers are empty.


The bike I use for groceries has folding open-top grocery panniers on
the rear rack, plus (of course!) a big handlebar bag.

That is similar to the Prophete shown above.


The three speed
village cruiser bike I built has a small front basket plus a rear rack.

Both of these are fairly lightweight frames. The three speed's frame is
custom built (for someone else) from light Reynolds 531 steel. It even
has a titanium bottom bracket! If it didn't have the basket, racks,
Brooks saddle, hub gear and front Dynohub, it would probably be the
lightest bike I ride.

For various reasons - missing incentives, mostly - , I haven't found the
time to get an replacement for the randonneur. It depends on what
primary use case to design it for, which in turn somewhat depends how
the pandemic develops in the next 12-18 months.

So I just use the Prophete for short distance rides and the race bike
for longer distances and fun rides, including my regular 70km trips.
Btw, here is a short (3 min) film from two days ago

https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20200622/20200622baba_stabil_1280.mp4


--
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 7:15:29 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/25/2020 10:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/25/2020 6:41 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 25 juni 2020 02:34:16 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 10:53:41 AM UTC-5, AMuzi
wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/


For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels, there's a new
10~50 cassette!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Most bikes going with a 1x setup. On the crankset, if one
had a granny gear or the small chainring for a road bike,
this cassette setup compensates the lack of additional
chainrings. I like.

Since the number of gears in the back is limited, even
with a 12 setup, the same gear range with only one
chainring comes at the cost of big jumps between gears.
For a road bike this is a 'strange' choice. YMMV.

+1



Compared to a modern 2x11 compact I agree.
But frankly compared to classic 2x5 or 2x6 gearing, it plots
out pretty well.

I don't want one but it's a sane choice for some riders.


For road riding I doubt that. I associate road riding with large stretches of relative flat or rolling terrain or longer climbs with moderate grades (10%) and then putting up with jumps (10-50T cassette) of 20-16.7-14.3-12.5-16.7-14.3-16.7-14.3-12.5-16.7% jumps? That is a 'strange' choice for me.

Lou

On 6/25/2020 12:56 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:23:03 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/14/2020 9:53 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 5:08:17 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

It appears from the video that the modern separated facilities
we associate with NL were built after the '70s. To quote
the narrator "build it and they will come in the
Netherlands." They won't come in Omaha and a lot of other
places, and yes, I get it that the US is not the NL (for a
lot of reasons), but that doesn't mean some infrastructure
isn't worthwhile.

Has anybody here ever said "No bike infrastructure is worthwhile?" I
certainly haven't.

Well, I do. Around here in Germanyy, no bike infrastructure is almost
always better than infrastructure which is actually built. Or painted.
The reason for that ist simple, in most cases this so called
infrastructure is just a formal way to prohibiting bicyclists from using
most parts of the road.

But even when looking at what in principle would be possible, instead of
what will actually be built, in most cases separate bike infrastructure
is worse that no bike infrastructure. This is so for the very same
reason, there just isn't enought space. When two connected
infrastructures are built into one level, one hase to give way, either
verbatim or figuratively.

Even in the Netherlands, it's the motorized traffic that always gets
priority, more space, the right of way, the better routes that go right
from the releavant sources of traffic to the relevant destinations.

The Netherlands somewhat hide that fact because the land is very flat,
has a lot of water and bridges, and because it is tiny, so reducing
bicycling traffic to short distance trips isn't as noticeable as in,
say, hilly regions where all the good valleys are already filled with
generous major an minor roads, so that "bicycle infrastructure" has to
meander around these.

I have had my share of so called "Bettelampeln"*), thank you very much,
where I had to beg for green by pushing a button in turn at three
separate places (!) for getting thru an intersection, where with a car
I'd just would had driven through green because of phased traffic
lights.

But I've yet to experience a single, existing bicycle infrastructure

- where I had the wish or necessity to ride a bicycle

- which was actually better than just having an ordinary road there

*) Bettelampel: a kind of pedestrian light, which forces a pedestrian to
push a button to get green.


Yes, I say a lot about bad design features, mistaken conceptions, etc.
Yes, I point out whiz-bang infrastructure that caused increases in
crashes. I don't think "any bike facility is a good bike facility."

Don't fault me for pointing out facility faults; it's not blasphemy.
That crap isn't sacred.

Bike facilites are almost always crap. Good bike facilities are almost
always not recognizeable as bike facilites. Like, for example, using low
rolling resistance asphalt. Or rightsizing lanes.

I agree with you in general. I'm just not 100% adamant. IOW, I think
there can be bits of bike infrastructure that are beneficial, as rare as
they are. My favorites, in the few places I've found them, have been
shortcuts or "leaks" that let cyclists through places where motorists
have to drive the long way around. (I helped to get two of those in my
village.)

Today we did a 30+ mile ride through the suburbs to get my new cycling
shoes. Much of it was on tangled residential streets specifically
designed to reduce cut-through traffic. I did a lot of intense
navigating, and was stymied a couple times by streets that were shown to
connect, but in real life did not.

If those streets had ended with connector paths, the residents would
still have the low motor vehicle traffic they cherish, but bicyclists
would have an easier and more pleasant way of getting to practical
places. (I guess that's roughly the definition of a "bicycle boulevard.")

BTW, we passed just two short bike lanes. I avoided them entirely and
rode the normal travel lane. Why? There was so much gravel I feared
getting a flat.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/25/2020 4:18 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 7:15:29 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/25/2020 10:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/25/2020 6:41 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 25 juni 2020 02:34:16 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 10:53:41 AM UTC-5, AMuzi
wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/


For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels, there's a new
10~50 cassette!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Most bikes going with a 1x setup. On the crankset, if one
had a granny gear or the small chainring for a road bike,
this cassette setup compensates the lack of additional
chainrings. I like.

Since the number of gears in the back is limited, even
with a 12 setup, the same gear range with only one
chainring comes at the cost of big jumps between gears.
For a road bike this is a 'strange' choice. YMMV.

+1



Compared to a modern 2x11 compact I agree.
But frankly compared to classic 2x5 or 2x6 gearing, it plots
out pretty well.

I don't want one but it's a sane choice for some riders.


For road riding I doubt that. I associate road riding with large stretches of relative flat or rolling terrain or longer climbs with moderate grades (10%) and then putting up with jumps (10-50T cassette) of 20-16.7-14.3-12.5-16.7-14.3-16.7-14.3-12.5-16.7% jumps? That is a 'strange' choice for me.

I'm still bemused about the fact that 2x5 was not enough, then 2x6 was
not enough, then 2x7 & 2x8 & 2x9 & 2x10 were not enough. Now suddenly
1x11 is perfect.

Perhaps we could discuss this:

What do people here really feel they _need_ in gearing? What high gear,
what low gear, and what percent changes between? Also, perhaps, what's
your terrain and riding conditions and style?

We could possibly make this technology independent, at least for a bit,
by pretending Rohloff could make anything we want with half the weight
and half the price of a derailleur system. I usually think in terms of
gear inches, but we can easily convert to/from (metric) development or
cog counts.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/25/2020 1:54 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:16:37 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/25/2020 11:04 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Sun, 14 Jun 2020 12:56:00 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/14/2020 11:25 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:05:27 -0700 (PDT) schrieb :

I can't see
the fun in getting groceries by bike if you don't have to.

I don't see much fun in that, either.

Interesting. I actually do enjoy it. And once we're in the process of
doing it, so does my wife.

What I meant was: we don't enjoy shopping, by whatever means.

I agree, I don't enjoy the shopping. I do enjoy the ride, though. I've
chosen very pleasant neighborhood streets for the routes there and back.
And it's nice that it's uphill there when we're unloaded, and downhill
back with the load.

Also, all but a couple of the streets we use were freshly paved last
year. They are beautifully smooth!

Our two nearest supermarkets and some specialiced shops are about 500 m
away, getting to the inner town center takes about 1.5 km. So taking the
bike is essentially a question about how heavy the stuff to be bought
will be. Usually, we just walk.

And that's a big difference with America. To buy a bag of potatoes, we
have to do at least three miles round trip. (We actually do 6.2 miles by
choice for the pleasant roads.) There's a gas station and a pharmacy
that are closer, but the little food they sell is almost nothing but junk.
This one, in fact,
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lidl.de%2Fmedia%2Fproduct%2F0% 2F0%2F1%2F6%2F4%2F2%2F0%2Fprophete-nostalgierad-71-12-cm-28-zoll-3-gang-nabenschaltung-nabendynamo--8.jpg
or https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/prophete.jpg.

It isn't a good bike, but I was in a hurry when I bought it and it
wasn't expensive, either. These bikes go for about 250 EUR (~$280)
around here. Last but not least, it serves the purpose.

No baskets or bags?

Hey, this is a _catalog photo_ that I just grabbed from the web. For
whatever reason, I haven't had a reason to have a photo of that bike
online, yet. It's neither nice nor in any way remarkable. Except perhaps
for the two Ortlieb Backroller panniers. These are the old ones which
made Ortlieb famous when they still where young. As the saying goes, the
owner did the very first ones himself at home, from truck tarpaulin
(Lkwplane)

https://ortliebusa.com/product/back-...-classic-pair/

Mine don't have any of the fancy stuff - clickfix, inner pocket, middle
strap, just two simple hooks and a glued-on velcro tape on top, which
has to be reglued every two or three years.

As it seems, these haven't become cheaper and are still about as
expensive als the Prophete

Speaking about the bike, that's an actual picture taken a moment ago.

https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/prophete_ortlieb.jpg

Both panniers are empty.


The bike I use for groceries has folding open-top grocery panniers on
the rear rack, plus (of course!) a big handlebar bag.

That is similar to the Prophete shown above.


The three speed
village cruiser bike I built has a small front basket plus a rear rack.

Both of these are fairly lightweight frames. The three speed's frame is
custom built (for someone else) from light Reynolds 531 steel. It even
has a titanium bottom bracket! If it didn't have the basket, racks,
Brooks saddle, hub gear and front Dynohub, it would probably be the
lightest bike I ride.

For various reasons - missing incentives, mostly - , I haven't found the
time to get an replacement for the randonneur. It depends on what
primary use case to design it for, which in turn somewhat depends how
the pandemic develops in the next 12-18 months.

So I just use the Prophete for short distance rides and the race bike
for longer distances and fun rides, including my regular 70km trips.
Btw, here is a short (3 min) film from two days ago

https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20200622/20200622baba_stabil_1280.mp4

That looks lovely.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/25/2020 8:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/25/2020 4:18 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 7:15:29 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/25/2020 10:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/25/2020 6:41 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 25 juni 2020 02:34:16 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 10:53:41 AM UTC-5, AMuzi
wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/



For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels, there's
a new
10~50 cassette!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Most bikes going with a 1x setup. On the crankset, if one
had a granny gear or the small chainring for a road bike,
this cassette setup compensates the lack of additional
chainrings. I like.

Since the number of gears in the back is limited, even
with a 12 setup, the same gear range with only one
chainring comes at the cost of big jumps between gears.
For a road bike this is a 'strange' choice. YMMV.

+1



Compared to a modern 2x11 compact I agree.
But frankly compared to classic 2x5 or 2x6 gearing, it plots
out pretty well.

I don't want one but it's a sane choice for some riders.


For road riding I doubt that. I associate road riding with
large stretches of relative flat or rolling terrain or
longer climbs with moderate grades (10%) and then putting
up with jumps (10-50T cassette) of
20-16.7-14.3-12.5-16.7-14.3-16.7-14.3-12.5-16.7% jumps?
That is a 'strange' choice for me.

I'm still bemused about the fact that 2x5 was not enough,
then 2x6 was not enough, then 2x7 & 2x8 & 2x9 & 2x10 were
not enough. Now suddenly 1x11 is perfect.

Perhaps we could discuss this:

What do people here really feel they _need_ in gearing? What
high gear, what low gear, and what percent changes between?
Also, perhaps, what's your terrain and riding conditions and
style?

We could possibly make this technology independent, at least
for a bit, by pretending Rohloff could make anything we want
with half the weight and half the price of a derailleur
system. I usually think in terms of gear inches, but we can
easily convert to/from (metric) development or cog counts.



I ride a significant amount on fixed gear which is 'enough'
but gearing is really nice for other sorts of riding. There
are riders who whine that my Sturmey AB three speed has gaps
too large between the selections. And others note my road
bike isn't geared wide enough. meh. People like what they
like and ought to ride exactly that whatever 'that' may be.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 21:20:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/25/2020 4:18 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 7:15:29 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/25/2020 10:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/25/2020 6:41 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 25 juni 2020 02:34:16 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 10:53:41 AM UTC-5, AMuzi
wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/


For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels, there's a new
10~50 cassette!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Most bikes going with a 1x setup. On the crankset, if one
had a granny gear or the small chainring for a road bike,
this cassette setup compensates the lack of additional
chainrings. I like.

Since the number of gears in the back is limited, even
with a 12 setup, the same gear range with only one
chainring comes at the cost of big jumps between gears.
For a road bike this is a 'strange' choice. YMMV.

+1



Compared to a modern 2x11 compact I agree.
But frankly compared to classic 2x5 or 2x6 gearing, it plots
out pretty well.

I don't want one but it's a sane choice for some riders.


For road riding I doubt that. I associate road riding with large stretches of relative flat or rolling terrain or longer climbs with moderate grades (10%) and then putting up with jumps (10-50T cassette) of 20-16.7-14.3-12.5-16.7-14.3-16.7-14.3-12.5-16.7% jumps? That is a 'strange' choice for me.

I'm still bemused about the fact that 2x5 was not enough, then 2x6 was
not enough, then 2x7 & 2x8 & 2x9 & 2x10 were not enough. Now suddenly
1x11 is perfect.

Perhaps we could discuss this:

See there Frank, you just don't get it.

1X11 is NEW and besides, Everybody has got one!
--
cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 8:20:43 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Perhaps we could discuss this:

What do people here really feel they _need_ in gearing? What high gear,
what low gear, and what percent changes between? Also, perhaps, what's
your terrain and riding conditions and style?
--
- Frank Krygowski

For me I ride on mostly flat to little rolling terrain around home. So for most of my riding I do not need an extreme or extended range of gearing. But I do have bikes for steep mountainous rides too. Ideal high gear for me is 4:1. 52x13, 53x13, maybe 50x12 for the highest. 4:1 gets me up to 30mph pedaling. Fast enough unless you are being paid to ride a bike fast. 42x28 is a big bailout gear for me on almost all my riding. 42x23 is the lowest I need for 98% of my riding. All this is paved road riding. My mountain climbing bikes have 24x28 low gear on the road bike and 20x32 on the loaded touring bike. Both triples. You got to have a triple crankset for mountain climbing.

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 11:52:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 8:20:43 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Perhaps we could discuss this:

What do people here really feel they _need_ in gearing? What high gear,
what low gear, and what percent changes between? Also, perhaps, what's
your terrain and riding conditions and style?
--
- Frank Krygowski

For me I ride on mostly flat to little rolling terrain around home. So for most of my riding I do not need an extreme or extended range of gearing. But I do have bikes for steep mountainous rides too. Ideal high gear for me is 4:1. 52x13, 53x13, maybe 50x12 for the highest. 4:1 gets me up to 30mph pedaling. Fast enough unless you are being paid to ride a bike fast. 42x28 is a big bailout gear for me on almost all my riding. 42x23 is the lowest I need for 98% of my riding. All this is paved road riding. My mountain climbing bikes have 24x28 low gear on the road bike and 20x32 on the loaded touring bike. Both triples. You got to have a triple crankset for mountain climbing.

Forgot to mention that I want 1 or 2 tooth cog jumps on the high and middle gears. For the low gears, BIG jumps are preferred. So I like my 9 and 10 cog cassettes. I get lots of close gears.

On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 21:52:03 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 8:20:43 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Perhaps we could discuss this:

What do people here really feel they _need_ in gearing? What high gear,
what low gear, and what percent changes between? Also, perhaps, what's
your terrain and riding conditions and style?
--
- Frank Krygowski

For me I ride on mostly flat to little rolling terrain around home. So for most of my riding I do not need an extreme or extended range of gearing. But I do have bikes for steep mountainous rides too. Ideal high gear for me is 4:1. 52x13, 53x13, maybe 50x12 for the highest. 4:1 gets me up to 30mph pedaling. Fast enough unless you are being paid to ride a bike fast. 42x28 is a big bailout gear for me on almost all my riding. 42x23 is the lowest I need for 98% of my riding. All this is paved road riding. My mountain climbing bikes have 24x28 low gear on the road bike and 20x32 on the loaded touring bike. Both triples. You got to have a triple crankset for mountain climbing.

When I ride in Bangkok I use, perhaps, two gears for a 40 or 50 km.
ride as Bangkok is built on what is or was an aluvial plain and is
essencially flat. When I ride at our other place, in the hills leading
to the Korat Plateau, I use a tripple chain ring and a 13 - 25
cassette and, to be frank, there are short sections, where I would
have to get off and push (so I take a different street :-)

Gearing is all about where you are.
--
cheers,

John B.