quality 8 speed MTB shifters? (or 9 spd shifter with 8 spd cassette)?

Greetings,

I am currently looking to upgrade the entry level integrated
shifter/brakes on my 2005 Trek 4300. I am looking to improve quality
and prefer the ability to select separate shifters and brakes for
maximum options.

I just picked up a set of Avid single digit ti brake levers, so I am
set there. Now that I am shopping for shifters I am having some
difficulties. Virtually all the indexed trigger shifters for sale are
9 spd. I have an 8 spd cassette with Alivio rear derailer. Of the few
8 spd shifters I find available the quality seems to top out with the
Alivo line. I'd prefer to go a bit above that for reliability and
longer life (Deore, Deore LX maybe XT), but don't need high end racing
type gear. Also, not looking for grip shifters.

My questions-

Are there any decent quality trigger type 8 speed shifters currently
available?

Can I buy a 9 speed shifter and just dial in the rear derailer so it
just stops after 8 gears? If so, is this hard on the shifter or rear
dearailer if I accidentally try to shift to that phantom 9th gear?

Thanks, Tracy

Pizza Man wrote:

Greetings,

I am currently looking to upgrade the entry level integrated
shifter/brakes on my 2005 Trek 4300. I am looking to improve quality
and prefer the ability to select separate shifters and brakes for
maximum options.

I just picked up a set of Avid single digit ti brake levers, so I am
set there. Now that I am shopping for shifters I am having some
difficulties. Virtually all the indexed trigger shifters for sale are
9 spd. I have an 8 spd cassette with Alivio rear derailer. Of the few
8 spd shifters I find available the quality seems to top out with the
Alivo line. I'd prefer to go a bit above that for reliability and
longer life (Deore, Deore LX maybe XT), but don't need high end racing
type gear. Also, not looking for grip shifters.

My questions-

Are there any decent quality trigger type 8 speed shifters currently
available?

Can I buy a 9 speed shifter and just dial in the rear derailer so it
just stops after 8 gears? If so, is this hard on the shifter or rear
dearailer if I accidentally try to shift to that phantom 9th gear?

I get asked this a lot, so I have a boilerplate response:

Even if you could find them, I wouldn't recommend buying 8-speed
shifters unless they are _very_ cheap. It makes more sense to upgrade
to 9-speed, since the expensive part of this conversion is the shifter,
and you already need a shifter!

The only additional parts you need for 9-speed are a new chain and
cassette, and these are normally consumable parts anyway--odds are yours
are already close to due for replacement.

Some folks will tell you that you need a lot of other stuff to convert
an 8-speed bike to 9-speed, but they're wrong.

Also, you can generally use the 9-speed shifters with your old 8-speed
cassette by using the "alternate cable routing" shown at
http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#alternate

Sheldon "Insert Nickname Here" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| This message has been sent to you using recycled electrons |
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Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Pizza Man wrote:

Greetings,

I am currently looking to upgrade the entry level integrated
shifter/brakes on my 2005 Trek 4300. I am looking to improve quality
and prefer the ability to select separate shifters and brakes for
maximum options.

I just picked up a set of Avid single digit ti brake levers, so I am
set there. Now that I am shopping for shifters I am having some
difficulties. Virtually all the indexed trigger shifters for sale are
9 spd. I have an 8 spd cassette with Alivio rear derailer. Of the few
8 spd shifters I find available the quality seems to top out with the
Alivo line. I'd prefer to go a bit above that for reliability and
longer life (Deore, Deore LX maybe XT), but don't need high end racing
type gear. Also, not looking for grip shifters.

My questions-

Are there any decent quality trigger type 8 speed shifters currently
available?

Can I buy a 9 speed shifter and just dial in the rear derailer so it
just stops after 8 gears? If so, is this hard on the shifter or rear
dearailer if I accidentally try to shift to that phantom 9th gear?

I get asked this a lot, so I have a boilerplate response:

Even if you could find them, I wouldn't recommend buying 8-speed
shifters unless they are _very_ cheap. It makes more sense to upgrade
to 9-speed, since the expensive part of this conversion is the shifter,
and you already need a shifter!

The only additional parts you need for 9-speed are a new chain and
cassette, and these are normally consumable parts anyway--odds are yours
are already close to due for replacement.

Some folks will tell you that you need a lot of other stuff to convert
an 8-speed bike to 9-speed, but they're wrong.

Also, you can generally use the 9-speed shifters with your old 8-speed
cassette by using the "alternate cable routing" shown at
http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#alternate

Sheldon "Insert Nickname Here" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| This message has been sent to you using recycled electrons |
| exclusively. Please do not discard them after use, |
| send them along and help conserve these irreplaceable |
| sub-atomic resources for future generations. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown wrote in news:416D6E16.9090907
@sheldonbrown.com:

I get asked this a lot, so I have a boilerplate response:

Even if you could find them, I wouldn't recommend buying 8-speed
shifters unless they are _very_ cheap. It makes more sense to upgrade
to 9-speed, since the expensive part of this conversion is the shifter,
and you already need a shifter!


In my opinion, 8 speed is a more reliable system for a mountain bike. The
chain is stronger and the cogs are thicker so they both should wear
longer. The gap between cogs is farther apart so shifting isn't so
affected by dirt and muck. This is not only my opinion, but that shared
by Mountain Bike Action. I've been very satisfied with my 8 speed
components. But of course if you can't find the parts...

--
Mike DeMicco

Sheldon Brown wrote in news:416D6E16.9090907
@sheldonbrown.com:

I get asked this a lot, so I have a boilerplate response:

Even if you could find them, I wouldn't recommend buying 8-speed
shifters unless they are _very_ cheap. It makes more sense to upgrade
to 9-speed, since the expensive part of this conversion is the shifter,
and you already need a shifter!


In my opinion, 8 speed is a more reliable system for a mountain bike. The
chain is stronger and the cogs are thicker so they both should wear
longer. The gap between cogs is farther apart so shifting isn't so
affected by dirt and muck. This is not only my opinion, but that shared
by Mountain Bike Action. I've been very satisfied with my 8 speed
components. But of course if you can't find the parts...

--
Mike DeMicco

My questions-

Are there any decent quality trigger type 8 speed shifters currently
available?

Can I buy a 9 speed shifter and just dial in the rear derailer so it
just stops after 8 gears? If so, is this hard on the shifter or rear
dearailer if I accidentally try to shift to that phantom 9th gear?

I get asked this a lot, so I have a boilerplate response:

Even if you could find them, I wouldn't recommend buying 8-speed
shifters unless they are _very_ cheap. It makes more sense to upgrade
to 9-speed, since the expensive part of this conversion is the shifter,
and you already need a shifter!

The only additional parts you need for 9-speed are a new chain and
cassette, and these are normally consumable parts anyway--odds are yours
are already close to due for replacement.

Some folks will tell you that you need a lot of other stuff to convert
an 8-speed bike to 9-speed, but they're wrong.

Also, you can generally use the 9-speed shifters with your old 8-speed
cassette by using the "alternate cable routing" shown at
http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#alternate


Sheldon "boilerplate" Brown,

Thank you for the helpful info. The link was very useful. I have an
Alivio rear derailleur and unfortunately it appears to be only 8 speed
(per the Shimano web site and some online retail sites). Unless you
have any tricks up your sleeve, I'll have to add a new rear derailleur
to the shopping list.

I'll take a look and see if the l'il Alivio even has the capability
for the suggested "alternate cable routing". That looks like a quick
fix (assuming I can get a steal on an 8 spd shifter).

I may just wait till I have trashed more components. The bike is less
than 2 months old and still in superb shape. The brakes were upgraded
by The LBS to deal with a braking problem. I figured this is a great
time to get some decent brake levers and eBay had a good deal. Ooops,
can't mount the new brake levers with the integrated shift/brake gizmo
already on the bike. New shifters seemed like a good quick fix. Which
leads to the need for new chain, new cassette, and new rear
derailleur, on a new bike......

At least when I wear out the existing drivetrain I can just go ahead
and make the jump to 9 speed with confidence. Or just go nuts and rip
out all the 8 spd now and go 9 spd....Hmmmmm

Thanks for the assistance,

Tracy "Thinking out loud" Olson

My questions-

Are there any decent quality trigger type 8 speed shifters currently
available?

Can I buy a 9 speed shifter and just dial in the rear derailer so it
just stops after 8 gears? If so, is this hard on the shifter or rear
dearailer if I accidentally try to shift to that phantom 9th gear?

I get asked this a lot, so I have a boilerplate response:

Even if you could find them, I wouldn't recommend buying 8-speed
shifters unless they are _very_ cheap. It makes more sense to upgrade
to 9-speed, since the expensive part of this conversion is the shifter,
and you already need a shifter!

The only additional parts you need for 9-speed are a new chain and
cassette, and these are normally consumable parts anyway--odds are yours
are already close to due for replacement.

Some folks will tell you that you need a lot of other stuff to convert
an 8-speed bike to 9-speed, but they're wrong.

Also, you can generally use the 9-speed shifters with your old 8-speed
cassette by using the "alternate cable routing" shown at
http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#alternate


Sheldon "boilerplate" Brown,

Thank you for the helpful info. The link was very useful. I have an
Alivio rear derailleur and unfortunately it appears to be only 8 speed
(per the Shimano web site and some online retail sites). Unless you
have any tricks up your sleeve, I'll have to add a new rear derailleur
to the shopping list.

I'll take a look and see if the l'il Alivio even has the capability
for the suggested "alternate cable routing". That looks like a quick
fix (assuming I can get a steal on an 8 spd shifter).

I may just wait till I have trashed more components. The bike is less
than 2 months old and still in superb shape. The brakes were upgraded
by The LBS to deal with a braking problem. I figured this is a great
time to get some decent brake levers and eBay had a good deal. Ooops,
can't mount the new brake levers with the integrated shift/brake gizmo
already on the bike. New shifters seemed like a good quick fix. Which
leads to the need for new chain, new cassette, and new rear
derailleur, on a new bike......

At least when I wear out the existing drivetrain I can just go ahead
and make the jump to 9 speed with confidence. Or just go nuts and rip
out all the 8 spd now and go 9 spd....Hmmmmm

Thanks for the assistance,

Tracy "Thinking out loud" Olson

(Pizza Man) wrote in message . com...
My questions-

Are there any decent quality trigger type 8 speed shifters currently
available?

Can I buy a 9 speed shifter and just dial in the rear derailer so it
just stops after 8 gears? If so, is this hard on the shifter or rear
dearailer if I accidentally try to shift to that phantom 9th gear?

sheldon
I get asked this a lot, so I have a boilerplate response:
snip
The only additional parts you need for 9-speed are a new chain and
cassette, and these are normally consumable parts anyway--odds are yours
are already close to due for replacement.
snip

Sheldon "boilerplate" Brown,

Thank you for the helpful info. The link was very useful. I have an
Alivio rear derailleur and unfortunately it appears to be only 8 speed
(per the Shimano web site and some online retail sites). Unless you
have any tricks up your sleeve, I'll have to add a new rear derailleur
to the shopping list.

I'll take a look and see if the l'il Alivio even has the capability
for the suggested "alternate cable routing". That looks like a quick
fix (assuming I can get a steal on an 8 spd shifter).

I may just wait till I have trashed more components. The bike is less
than 2 months old and still in superb shape. The brakes were upgraded
by The LBS to deal with a braking problem. I figured this is a great
time to get some decent brake levers and eBay had a good deal. Ooops,
can't mount the new brake levers with the integrated shift/brake gizmo
already on the bike. New shifters seemed like a good quick fix. Which
leads to the need for new chain, new cassette, and new rear
derailleur, on a new bike......

At least when I wear out the existing drivetrain I can just go ahead
and make the jump to 9 speed with confidence. Or just go nuts and rip
out all the 8 spd now and go 9 spd....Hmmmmm

Thanks for the assistance,

Tracy "Thinking out loud" Olson


Stick with the 8speed for now, ride the bike, trash it, see what
breaks. Replace it. When you wear out your current casette, replace
it with a 9 speed and upgrade your shifters. The low end shimano
stuff (alivio) is really pretty darn good these days.

If you really want to stick with 8speed (possible future issues with
parts avalibility) you can upgrade to these:

http://www.bikeusa.com/MERCHANT2/mer..._Co de=LD8730

NOS STX-RC for $35. (Grades used to run Alivio,STX,STX-RC,LX,XT,XTR)

If you do decide to move to 9sp, you don't need to change the
derailer, they all work the same. Shimano may tell you differently
but they are selling you something. You also don't need to "upgrade"
your chainrings. As Sheldon said the ONLY thing you need different
between 8 and 9sp is the chain, shifters, and casette. (throw a rear
hub into the mix and that's the only difference between 7 through 10
speed)

-Tim

(Pizza Man) wrote in message . com...
My questions-

Are there any decent quality trigger type 8 speed shifters currently
available?

Can I buy a 9 speed shifter and just dial in the rear derailer so it
just stops after 8 gears? If so, is this hard on the shifter or rear
dearailer if I accidentally try to shift to that phantom 9th gear?

sheldon
I get asked this a lot, so I have a boilerplate response:
snip
The only additional parts you need for 9-speed are a new chain and
cassette, and these are normally consumable parts anyway--odds are yours
are already close to due for replacement.
snip

Sheldon "boilerplate" Brown,

Thank you for the helpful info. The link was very useful. I have an
Alivio rear derailleur and unfortunately it appears to be only 8 speed
(per the Shimano web site and some online retail sites). Unless you
have any tricks up your sleeve, I'll have to add a new rear derailleur
to the shopping list.

I'll take a look and see if the l'il Alivio even has the capability
for the suggested "alternate cable routing". That looks like a quick
fix (assuming I can get a steal on an 8 spd shifter).

I may just wait till I have trashed more components. The bike is less
than 2 months old and still in superb shape. The brakes were upgraded
by The LBS to deal with a braking problem. I figured this is a great
time to get some decent brake levers and eBay had a good deal. Ooops,
can't mount the new brake levers with the integrated shift/brake gizmo
already on the bike. New shifters seemed like a good quick fix. Which
leads to the need for new chain, new cassette, and new rear
derailleur, on a new bike......

At least when I wear out the existing drivetrain I can just go ahead
and make the jump to 9 speed with confidence. Or just go nuts and rip
out all the 8 spd now and go 9 spd....Hmmmmm

Thanks for the assistance,

Tracy "Thinking out loud" Olson


Stick with the 8speed for now, ride the bike, trash it, see what
breaks. Replace it. When you wear out your current casette, replace
it with a 9 speed and upgrade your shifters. The low end shimano
stuff (alivio) is really pretty darn good these days.

If you really want to stick with 8speed (possible future issues with
parts avalibility) you can upgrade to these:

http://www.bikeusa.com/MERCHANT2/mer..._Co de=LD8730

NOS STX-RC for $35. (Grades used to run Alivio,STX,STX-RC,LX,XT,XTR)

If you do decide to move to 9sp, you don't need to change the
derailer, they all work the same. Shimano may tell you differently
but they are selling you something. You also don't need to "upgrade"
your chainrings. As Sheldon said the ONLY thing you need different
between 8 and 9sp is the chain, shifters, and casette. (throw a rear
hub into the mix and that's the only difference between 7 through 10
speed)

-Tim

Mike DeMicco wrote:

Sheldon Brown wrote in news:416D6E16.9090907
@sheldonbrown.com:

I get asked this a lot, so I have a boilerplate response:

Even if you could find them, I wouldn't recommend buying 8-speed
shifters unless they are _very_ cheap. It makes more sense to upgrade
to 9-speed, since the expensive part of this conversion is the shifter,
and you already need a shifter!


In my opinion, 8 speed is a more reliable system for a mountain bike. The
chain is stronger...

Evidence?

... and the cogs are thicker...

9 x 1.78 mm = 16.02 mm
8 x 1.80 mm = 14.10 mm

9sp have more cog face area in the aggregate, so there is not necessarily a
basis for this claim, but maybe a basis for the *opposite* claim, especially if
the extra cog is in the middle of the range. Closer spacing not commensurate
with cog width means the face area is more densely packed with metal -- metal
that engages the chain.

...so they both should wear longer.


Evidence? The 8sp cogs are only 1.1% thicker, so even on a single cog basis,
the claim is a stretch in any practical way. The 9sp chain might wear faster,
but that would depend upon the sleeve/pin interface width (which is not
visible). If the 9sp pin/sleeve interface is a lesser linear length than the
8sp chain, then the claim regarding chain wear may well be true. However, all
claims of increased wear are typically absent of any rational reasoning. (In
any event, there will be tradeoff judgement even if there is faster wear. Do I
want the extra gear, or do I want to buy a new chain slightly more often.)

The gap between cogs is farther apart so shifting isn't so
affected by dirt and muck. This is not only my opinion, but that shared
by Mountain Bike Action.

Hey, well if it is in MBA, then who could argue?


I've been very satisfied with my 8 speed
components.

I too am highly satisfied w/ 8sp systems. But have you actually ridden/tested a
9sp in a scientific way to make the "farther apart" claim.

But of course if you can't find the parts...

I don't seem to have much trouble.