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#21
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GPS Units = Show road steepness?
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:28:58 PM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
Zen Cycle writes: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 6:35:02 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: Sir Ridesalot wrote: Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or otherwise install? Cheers Various mapping sites will show the gradient, and some GPS units will show the gradient, in the same way that it can give improbable maximum speeds they can also give improbable max gradients or sometimes on very short ramps not notice it, there is a nasty little ramp nr my folks place, which is the software flattens claiming 12% when it’s a fair cruel 25/30% even more cruel this weekend with a 50mph headwind. It's probably an averaging issue - taking enough samples before and after the section so that it flattens the pitch. It's the same basic issue as the speedometer kerfluffle. Numerical differentiation amplifies noise. Interesting how you characterize it as 'noise'. |
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#23
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GPS Units = Show road steepness?
On 3/11/2019 3:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote: On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote: GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit. What?? No television?? The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million e-bikes could be sold each year. One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-) One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of the T.V. -- Cheers, John B. 40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it. A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V. It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up. Lou I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe. -- Jay Beattie. +1. Just wait for eBikes with 'autonomous navigation' a.k.a. 'killer robots'. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#24
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GPS Units = Show road steepness?
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers.. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe. That same point has been made elsewhere by John Schubert, who's a pretty notable bike expert. As he explained, it usually takes quite a lot of riding to get fast on a bike. During that time, you tend to learn from your mistakes, if nothing else, and most of those mistakes happen at low speed. Now you can get fast on a bike by buying or renting one with an electric motor. You get to make all your beginner mistakes at 18 mph. Whee! A similar situation happens with motorcycles. And the terrible safety stats for motorcycles are dominated by beginners. - Frank Krygowski |
#25
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GPS Units = Show road steepness?
On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote: On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote: GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit. What?? No television?? The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million e-bikes could be sold each year. One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-) One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of the T.V. -- Cheers, John B. 40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it. A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V. It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up. Lou I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe. -- Jay Beattie. I just LOVE those ebikers who zoom up and pass you on the right just as you're moving to the right. There's a intersection here in town that's like a shallow with the right hand lane going onto another street and that lane is right hand only no through traffic. So many times I've nearly been hit as I continued along the straight through lane and then begun to move to my right to allow the big trucks room. That's because some idiot ebiker (and sometimes a regular bicyclist) continues straight instead of following the right hand lane onto the other road like they're supposed to. Being passed on the right is NOT something you normally expect to happen on the road or trail yet a large n umber of ebikers I've seen do precisely that. That's not to mention other illegal and dangerous behaviours I see them do on the roads. I often wonder if eventually ebikes will require a license in order to operate? Like you said a fast unskilled rider on an ebike can be a hazard to everyone else in their vicinity. Cheers Singapore requires e-bikes to be registered and carry a registration plate and imposes a speed limit which is enforced, the penalty is a $1,000 fine and/or a three month jail sentence. The speed limit is 10kph on foot paths and 25kph on "shared paths". -- Cheers, John B. |
#26
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GPS Units = Show road steepness?
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 7:32:42 PM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote: On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote: GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit. What?? No television?? The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million e-bikes could be sold each year. One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-) One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of the T.V. -- Cheers, John B. 40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it. A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V. It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up. Lou I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe. -- Jay Beattie. I just LOVE those ebikers who zoom up and pass you on the right just as you're moving to the right. There's a intersection here in town that's like a shallow with the right hand lane going onto another street and that lane is right hand only no through traffic. So many times I've nearly been hit as I continued along the straight through lane and then begun to move to my right to allow the big trucks room. That's because some idiot ebiker (and sometimes a regular bicyclist) continues straight instead of following the right hand lane onto the other road like they're supposed to. Being passed on the right is NOT something you normally expect to happen on the road or trail yet a large n umber of ebikers I've seen do precisely that. That's not to mention other illegal and dangerous behaviours I see them do on the roads. I often wonder if eventually ebikes will require a license in order to operate? Like you said a fast unskilled rider on an ebike can be a hazard to everyone else in their vicinity. Cheers Singapore requires e-bikes to be registered and carry a registration plate and imposes a speed limit which is enforced, the penalty is a $1,000 fine and/or a three month jail sentence. The speed limit is 10kph on foot paths and 25kph on "shared paths". -- Cheers, John B. Sounds like what we are going to need here. How about bicycles? Do those require registration too? Cheers |
#27
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GPS Units = Show road steepness?
On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:07:44 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 7:32:42 PM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote: On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote: GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit. What?? No television?? The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million e-bikes could be sold each year. One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-) One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of the T.V. -- Cheers, John B. 40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it. A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V. It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up. Lou I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe. -- Jay Beattie. I just LOVE those ebikers who zoom up and pass you on the right just as you're moving to the right. There's a intersection here in town that's like a shallow with the right hand lane going onto another street and that lane is right hand only no through traffic. So many times I've nearly been hit as I continued along the straight through lane and then begun to move to my right to allow the big trucks room. That's because some idiot ebiker (and sometimes a regular bicyclist) continues straight instead of following the right hand lane onto the other road like they're supposed to. Being passed on the right is NOT something you normally expect to happen on the road or trail yet a large n umber of ebikers I've seen do precisely that. That's not to mention other illegal and dangerous behaviours I see them do on the roads. I often wonder if eventually ebikes will require a license in order to operate? Like you said a fast unskilled rider on an ebike can be a hazard to everyone else in their vicinity. Cheers Singapore requires e-bikes to be registered and carry a registration plate and imposes a speed limit which is enforced, the penalty is a $1,000 fine and/or a three month jail sentence. The speed limit is 10kph on foot paths and 25kph on "shared paths". -- Cheers, John B. Sounds like what we are going to need here. How about bicycles? Do those require registration too? Cheers As far as I know human powered bicycles do not require registration but there are rules and regulations. For example: Wear a helmet when cycling on roads, obey all traffic signals and travel in the same direction as the traffic flow, cycle in a single file on single lane roads, turn on a white front light and a red rear light in the dark. Note that the penalty for failing to follow these rules is a $1,000 fine and/or a three month prison sentence. There are a bunch of other rules, like giving hand signals and only carrying a maximum of one other person and so on. They also have a law that states that the use of "a mobile telephone and any hand-held device which is designed or capable of being used for a communicative function" while the vehicle is moving is subject to a penalty of a $1,000 fine and/or a six month prison sentence. And more to the point, they do enforce these rules. -- Cheers, John B. |
#28
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GPS Units = Show road steepness?
On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 07:37:30 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote: On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:07:44 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 7:32:42 PM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote: On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote: GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit. What?? No television?? The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million e-bikes could be sold each year. One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-) One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of the T.V. -- Cheers, John B. 40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it. A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V. It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up. Lou I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe. -- Jay Beattie. I just LOVE those ebikers who zoom up and pass you on the right just as you're moving to the right. There's a intersection here in town that's like a shallow with the right hand lane going onto another street and that lane is right hand only no through traffic. So many times I've nearly been hit as I continued along the straight through lane and then begun to move to my right to allow the big trucks room. That's because some idiot ebiker (and sometimes a regular bicyclist) continues straight instead of following the right hand lane onto the other road like they're supposed to. Being passed on the right is NOT something you normally expect to happen on the road or trail yet a large n umber of ebikers I've seen do precisely that. That's not to mention other illegal and dangerous behaviours I see them do on the roads. I often wonder if eventually ebikes will require a license in order to operate? Like you said a fast unskilled rider on an ebike can be a hazard to everyone else in their vicinity. Cheers Singapore requires e-bikes to be registered and carry a registration plate and imposes a speed limit which is enforced, the penalty is a $1,000 fine and/or a three month jail sentence. The speed limit is 10kph on foot paths and 25kph on "shared paths". -- Cheers, John B. Sounds like what we are going to need here. How about bicycles? Do those require registration too? Cheers As far as I know human powered bicycles do not require registration but there are rules and regulations. For example: Wear a helmet when cycling on roads, obey all traffic signals and travel in the same direction as the traffic flow, cycle in a single file on single lane roads, turn on a white front light and a red rear light in the dark. Note that the penalty for failing to follow these rules is a $1,000 fine and/or a three month prison sentence. There are a bunch of other rules, like giving hand signals and only carrying a maximum of one other person and so on. They also have a law that states that the use of "a mobile telephone and any hand-held device which is designed or capable of being used for a communicative function" while the vehicle is moving is subject to a penalty of a $1,000 fine and/or a six month prison sentence. And more to the point, they do enforce these rules. As an addendum, the average monthly salary in Singapore is about S$5,700 so based on an average month of 30.42 days and a 6 day work week is about 26 work days per month so average working day's salary is about $219 and a $1,000 fine then amounts to about 5 days salary. -- Cheers, John B. |
#29
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GPS Units = Show road steepness?
Radey Shouman wrote:
Zen Cycle writes: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 6:35:02 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: Sir Ridesalot wrote: Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or otherwise install? Cheers Various mapping sites will show the gradient, and some GPS units will show the gradient, in the same way that it can give improbable maximum speeds they can also give improbable max gradients or sometimes on very short ramps not notice it, there is a nasty little ramp nr my folks place, which is the software flattens claiming 12% when it’s a fair cruel 25/30% even more cruel this weekend with a 50mph headwind. It's probably an averaging issue - taking enough samples before and after the section so that it flattens the pitch. It's the same basic issue as the speedometer kerfluffle. Numerical differentiation amplifies noise. I would think it was the opposite. Numerical integration suppresses spikes. |
#30
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GPS Units = Show road steepness?
On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 6:46:44 PM UTC-6, Sir Ridesalot wrote: Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or otherwise install? Cheers For an instant reading, you can get a bubble inclineometer, properly calibrated measures the incline between the front and rear contact patches. |
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