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Disk Brakes Again



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 26th 19, 06:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 389
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:27:34 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 7:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:08:51 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

You don’t have to be a pro to be competitive. That argument is not only
specious but insulting.

I said "What doesn't make sense is very ordinary riders mimicking every choice
the pro racers make."

That seems insulting to you?

Why?

Because you belittle people for buying light equipment and supposedly "mimicking" pro racers. That is an unmistakable put down. How could that not be insulting?

What is an acceptable Frank bike? A Flying Pigeon?

Well, what I actually said was "mimicking every choice the pro racers
make." That was much more than just buying light equipment.

And of course, I'm not trying to forbid anything. I'm trying to discuss..

I have many riding friends. I've watched them buy custom steel bikes,
super-light aluminum ones, carbon fiber ones, aero ones, recumbents and
more. I've watched them follow every shifter upgrade from 5 cog friction
through 11 cog electronic. (Well, no Rohloffs yet in my crowd.) I've
seen guys go though great lengths to lighten their existing bikes. A few
now have switched to disc brakes. A couple are experimenting with wider
tires - 32 to 35 mm or so.

I'm sorry, but I just haven't see all that make a difference. The guys
who were faster than me (almost always the ones who put serious time,
effort and pain into training) stayed faster than me. The ones who were
slower stayed slower.

I know there are guys who enjoy hard riding with buddies and sprinting
to the next telephone pole. I've done plenty of that. And if one guy
like that drops a couple thousand bucks on new aero carbon wheels, he'll
win a few more telephone pole trophies. If, that is, there actually were
telephone pole trophies. But should he really feel proud for outspending
his friend? And if the friend retaliates with even pricier equipment,
what's the point?


Nobody I know is retaliating against anyone by buying "pricier" equipment..

I'm not giving anyone a free pass here. There are stupid purchases -- cutting edge junk that falls apart or doesn't work well, things that are too light and break, bizarre designs good for one thing like some of the newer gravel bike designs that really shine in specific conditions and pretty much suck everywhere else. I don't support buying a bike as a display of wealth. Lou's Canyon doesn't fall into any of those categories.

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.


A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.


I think at the moment that is the best bike you can buy for that kind of money.

Lou
Ads
  #22  
Old May 26th 19, 06:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 8,558
Default Disk Brakes Again

On 5/26/2019 10:01 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:28:47 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
But should he really feel proud for outspending
his friend? And if the friend retaliates with even pricier equipment,
what's the point?


Huh? Outspending? Retaliates? What are you talking about? Boy, you have a weird narrow minded prejudiced view and what is even worse you don't even notice it. Nobody I know is proud for outspending his friend, nobody. We are happy with everyone that show up with new equipment regardless the cost. Maybe it is a USA thing but we don't discuss costs. If he is happy with his purchase, we are. FWIW most of the times I show up on group rides with my modest aluminum bike equipped with Campy Chorus. I enjoy my feel good and go fast bike alone and in great humbleness. realizing I'm blessed to be able riding such a nice bike.


I don't think it's fair to judge how other people choose to spend their
discretionary income. Some people buy exotic cars, some buy the latest,
most expensive smart phone on the day it's released, some spend it on
bicycle wheels, some people go on cruises. These are not ways that I
would choose to spend my money, but I'm not going to tell other people
what to do.

"Retaliates?!" Geez.
  #23  
Old May 26th 19, 07:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,257
Default Disk Brakes Again

On 5/26/2019 11:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.


A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.


OK. I was taking a guess on the price. But that's still less than some
wheel sets.

And Raleigh Pro - best in the world? Probably not, I agree. That was my
friend's statement, not mine. Only one bike at a time can be "the best
in the world." But back in those days, if everyone could agree on the
"best" - whatever it was - it probably wasn't much different from that
Raleigh.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.


I'm sure it's a great bike for its intended purpose. (Even though it has
- gasp! - rim brakes.)

BTW, in 1976 I spent close to $1,000 on a custom steel sport touring bike with Phil hubs and BB and some other exotic components like ER Ti spindle pedals (that broke), but not Campy except for some cable clips. It was mostly Dura Ace. My next bike was an all Campy and Phil racing bike. It was gorgeous. I bought it to retaliate against my meager savings account. I spent a huge amount of my college earnings on bike stuff. I bought a used '69 PX10 while in high school. Had I only invested in IBM stock!


I'd have been jealous. When I got into bicycling I was married and
making not much money. In no time there were kids to raise, houses to
buy, etc. I actually traded to acquire a used Raleigh Super Course, my
first "good" bike. It was years later that I bought my first "new" bike.

That Super Course was my only bike for many years, and I rode it on
tours, commutes, utility rides, club rides, etc. I remember taking the
rear rack and sometimes the fenders off to ride centuries.

But speaking of equipment: In the 1980s, some young bucks in our bike
club staged "Survival of the Fittest" rides, fast out-and-back training
rides. The ride info said things like "No stops, no wimps."

I didn't ride with that crowd - they were all younger than me - but one
day I decided to try it. I stripped the bike down and showed up, the
only guy on clinchers; the only guy running SunTour instead of Campy;
the only guy without cleats, and probably the only one without double
butted tubing, etc. Certainly the only guy with a handlebar bag. I was
fairly nervous getting my bike off the roof rack, and even more so when
the ride leader came over and said "We're just riding to XXXX along
route YYYY and back, so when you get dropped you can find your way back."

So maybe 15 riders started off fast, mostly single file, with me
somewhere in the middle. I remember watching the guy in front of me
(whom I still know) almost immediately missing a shift with his Campy
derailleur. I was really concentrating on not losing the draft, keeping
low on the bike, choosing the best gear, and just not getting dropped.
By my standards, we were really moving.

To my amazement, at the first significant rise - not really a hill - a
gap opened up somewhere behind. And at the second or third rise, more
guys fell off. I even passed a few. So at the turnaround, I was fairly
close to the front.

Then the main hotshot, whose parents were good friends, sort of pulled a
nasty trick. While people were still getting oriented for the
turnaround, he said "Let's go!" and took off. Only four of us happened
to be right with him, so everyone else was behind a gap. We took off in
a four or five man paceline.

.... which became a three man paceline at another short uphill. Both I
and one other guy tried to take our turns pulling, but the fast leader
wouldn't let us, so we followed his wheel. And about two miles from the
end on another rise, the other guy fell off. So I cranked in behind the
fastest guy, well ahead of anyone else.

The fast young guy was really complimentary. The guy who set up the ride
came over too, and said "You did _great!" and slapped my back. But all
the other riders were silent. I could hear some of them glumly talking
about their tires, their chains and other equipment. Nobody wanted to
talk about my tires or derailleurs.

I drove home happy, but I didn't do that ride again. Job, house, wife,
kids ... and not enough money to switch to tubulars and Campy.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #24  
Old May 26th 19, 08:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,882
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 11:45:03 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/26/2019 11:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike.."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.


A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.


OK. I was taking a guess on the price. But that's still less than some
wheel sets.

And Raleigh Pro - best in the world? Probably not, I agree. That was my
friend's statement, not mine. Only one bike at a time can be "the best
in the world." But back in those days, if everyone could agree on the
"best" - whatever it was - it probably wasn't much different from that
Raleigh.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.


I'm sure it's a great bike for its intended purpose. (Even though it has
- gasp! - rim brakes.)

BTW, in 1976 I spent close to $1,000 on a custom steel sport touring bike with Phil hubs and BB and some other exotic components like ER Ti spindle pedals (that broke), but not Campy except for some cable clips. It was mostly Dura Ace. My next bike was an all Campy and Phil racing bike. It was gorgeous. I bought it to retaliate against my meager savings account. I spent a huge amount of my college earnings on bike stuff. I bought a used '69 PX10 while in high school. Had I only invested in IBM stock!


I'd have been jealous. When I got into bicycling I was married and
making not much money. In no time there were kids to raise, houses to
buy, etc. I actually traded to acquire a used Raleigh Super Course, my
first "good" bike. It was years later that I bought my first "new" bike.

That Super Course was my only bike for many years, and I rode it on
tours, commutes, utility rides, club rides, etc. I remember taking the
rear rack and sometimes the fenders off to ride centuries.

But speaking of equipment: In the 1980s, some young bucks in our bike
club staged "Survival of the Fittest" rides, fast out-and-back training
rides. The ride info said things like "No stops, no wimps."

I didn't ride with that crowd - they were all younger than me - but one
day I decided to try it. I stripped the bike down and showed up, the
only guy on clinchers; the only guy running SunTour instead of Campy;
the only guy without cleats, and probably the only one without double
butted tubing, etc. Certainly the only guy with a handlebar bag. I was
fairly nervous getting my bike off the roof rack, and even more so when
the ride leader came over and said "We're just riding to XXXX along
route YYYY and back, so when you get dropped you can find your way back."

So maybe 15 riders started off fast, mostly single file, with me
somewhere in the middle. I remember watching the guy in front of me
(whom I still know) almost immediately missing a shift with his Campy
derailleur. I was really concentrating on not losing the draft, keeping
low on the bike, choosing the best gear, and just not getting dropped.
By my standards, we were really moving.

To my amazement, at the first significant rise - not really a hill - a
gap opened up somewhere behind. And at the second or third rise, more
guys fell off. I even passed a few. So at the turnaround, I was fairly
close to the front.

Then the main hotshot, whose parents were good friends, sort of pulled a
nasty trick. While people were still getting oriented for the
turnaround, he said "Let's go!" and took off. Only four of us happened
to be right with him, so everyone else was behind a gap. We took off in
a four or five man paceline.

... which became a three man paceline at another short uphill. Both I
and one other guy tried to take our turns pulling, but the fast leader
wouldn't let us, so we followed his wheel. And about two miles from the
end on another rise, the other guy fell off. So I cranked in behind the
fastest guy, well ahead of anyone else.

The fast young guy was really complimentary. The guy who set up the ride
came over too, and said "You did _great!" and slapped my back. But all
the other riders were silent. I could hear some of them glumly talking
about their tires, their chains and other equipment. Nobody wanted to
talk about my tires or derailleurs.

I drove home happy, but I didn't do that ride again. Job, house, wife,
kids ... and not enough money to switch to tubulars and Campy.


Imagine if you had been on a light bike with tubulars. You would have dropped the fast guy. Another missed opportunity. You might have gotten a pro contract. A slow person on a fast bike will still be slow. A fast person on a slow bike will be slower than if he were on a fast bike.

After 1973-75 or thereabouts, Shimano and Suntour offered a better value and a functionally better (and lighter in some cases) product than Campagnolo.. It just looked crappy in comparison and wasn't nearly as robust. With Campy products like the Rally touring derailleur, that meant you had a ****ty shifting derailleur that would last forever. Woohooo! By 1984, I was back to Shimano, and I stopped buying Dura Ace shortly thereafter since 600EX (Ultegra) was such a good value. Even my best current bikes have Ultegra.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #25  
Old May 26th 19, 09:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,257
Default Disk Brakes Again

On 5/26/2019 3:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 11:45:03 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/26/2019 11:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.

A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.


OK. I was taking a guess on the price. But that's still less than some
wheel sets.

And Raleigh Pro - best in the world? Probably not, I agree. That was my
friend's statement, not mine. Only one bike at a time can be "the best
in the world." But back in those days, if everyone could agree on the
"best" - whatever it was - it probably wasn't much different from that
Raleigh.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.


I'm sure it's a great bike for its intended purpose. (Even though it has
- gasp! - rim brakes.)

BTW, in 1976 I spent close to $1,000 on a custom steel sport touring bike with Phil hubs and BB and some other exotic components like ER Ti spindle pedals (that broke), but not Campy except for some cable clips. It was mostly Dura Ace. My next bike was an all Campy and Phil racing bike. It was gorgeous. I bought it to retaliate against my meager savings account. I spent a huge amount of my college earnings on bike stuff. I bought a used '69 PX10 while in high school. Had I only invested in IBM stock!


I'd have been jealous. When I got into bicycling I was married and
making not much money. In no time there were kids to raise, houses to
buy, etc. I actually traded to acquire a used Raleigh Super Course, my
first "good" bike. It was years later that I bought my first "new" bike.

That Super Course was my only bike for many years, and I rode it on
tours, commutes, utility rides, club rides, etc. I remember taking the
rear rack and sometimes the fenders off to ride centuries.

But speaking of equipment: In the 1980s, some young bucks in our bike
club staged "Survival of the Fittest" rides, fast out-and-back training
rides. The ride info said things like "No stops, no wimps."

I didn't ride with that crowd - they were all younger than me - but one
day I decided to try it. I stripped the bike down and showed up, the
only guy on clinchers; the only guy running SunTour instead of Campy;
the only guy without cleats, and probably the only one without double
butted tubing, etc. Certainly the only guy with a handlebar bag. I was
fairly nervous getting my bike off the roof rack, and even more so when
the ride leader came over and said "We're just riding to XXXX along
route YYYY and back, so when you get dropped you can find your way back."

So maybe 15 riders started off fast, mostly single file, with me
somewhere in the middle. I remember watching the guy in front of me
(whom I still know) almost immediately missing a shift with his Campy
derailleur. I was really concentrating on not losing the draft, keeping
low on the bike, choosing the best gear, and just not getting dropped.
By my standards, we were really moving.

To my amazement, at the first significant rise - not really a hill - a
gap opened up somewhere behind. And at the second or third rise, more
guys fell off. I even passed a few. So at the turnaround, I was fairly
close to the front.

Then the main hotshot, whose parents were good friends, sort of pulled a
nasty trick. While people were still getting oriented for the
turnaround, he said "Let's go!" and took off. Only four of us happened
to be right with him, so everyone else was behind a gap. We took off in
a four or five man paceline.

... which became a three man paceline at another short uphill. Both I
and one other guy tried to take our turns pulling, but the fast leader
wouldn't let us, so we followed his wheel. And about two miles from the
end on another rise, the other guy fell off. So I cranked in behind the
fastest guy, well ahead of anyone else.

The fast young guy was really complimentary. The guy who set up the ride
came over too, and said "You did _great!" and slapped my back. But all
the other riders were silent. I could hear some of them glumly talking
about their tires, their chains and other equipment. Nobody wanted to
talk about my tires or derailleurs.

I drove home happy, but I didn't do that ride again. Job, house, wife,
kids ... and not enough money to switch to tubulars and Campy.


Imagine if you had been on a light bike with tubulars. You would have dropped the fast guy. Another missed opportunity. You might have gotten a pro contract. A slow person on a fast bike will still be slow. A fast person on a slow bike will be slower than if he were on a fast bike.

After 1973-75 or thereabouts, Shimano and Suntour offered a better value and a functionally better (and lighter in some cases) product than Campagnolo. It just looked crappy in comparison and wasn't nearly as robust. With Campy products like the Rally touring derailleur, that meant you had a ****ty shifting derailleur that would last forever. Woohooo! By 1984, I was back to Shimano, and I stopped buying Dura Ace shortly thereafter since 600EX (Ultegra) was such a good value. Even my best current bikes have Ultegra.


Yeah, last year I had to disassemble and lubricate a Campy Rally
derailleur for a friend who dragged his old touring bike out of storage.
I also fixed or lubricated or tuned everything else on that bike. During
my brief post-tuneup test ride, it didn't seem like a wonderful derailleur.

I'd talked him into getting the bike out (a nice old Trek) because he
rides only on roads, yet rides a mountain bike with knobby tires. I told
him how much easier the Trek would roll. And I put a lot of time into
getting everything right.

But when he did his post-tuneup test ride around the block, he said "I
don't know. It feels kind of twitchy." (Um - compared to a mountain bike
with sluggish tires? Not surprising!)

Later he told me he didn't ride it again, and he still hasn't.
Apparently it doesn't feel safe to him. :-(


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #26  
Old May 26th 19, 11:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 396
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Sun, 26 May 2019 10:03:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:27:34 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 7:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:08:51 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

You don’t have to be a pro to be competitive. That argument is not only
specious but insulting.

I said "What doesn't make sense is very ordinary riders mimicking every choice
the pro racers make."

That seems insulting to you?

Why?

Because you belittle people for buying light equipment and supposedly "mimicking" pro racers. That is an unmistakable put down. How could that not be insulting?
What is an acceptable Frank bike? A Flying Pigeon?

Well, what I actually said was "mimicking every choice the pro racers
make." That was much more than just buying light equipment.

And of course, I'm not trying to forbid anything. I'm trying to discuss.

I have many riding friends. I've watched them buy custom steel bikes,
super-light aluminum ones, carbon fiber ones, aero ones, recumbents and
more. I've watched them follow every shifter upgrade from 5 cog friction
through 11 cog electronic. (Well, no Rohloffs yet in my crowd.) I've
seen guys go though great lengths to lighten their existing bikes. A few
now have switched to disc brakes. A couple are experimenting with wider
tires - 32 to 35 mm or so.

I'm sorry, but I just haven't see all that make a difference. The guys
who were faster than me (almost always the ones who put serious time,
effort and pain into training) stayed faster than me. The ones who were
slower stayed slower.

I know there are guys who enjoy hard riding with buddies and sprinting
to the next telephone pole. I've done plenty of that. And if one guy
like that drops a couple thousand bucks on new aero carbon wheels, he'll
win a few more telephone pole trophies. If, that is, there actually were
telephone pole trophies. But should he really feel proud for outspending
his friend? And if the friend retaliates with even pricier equipment,
what's the point?


Nobody I know is retaliating against anyone by buying "pricier" equipment.

I'm not giving anyone a free pass here. There are stupid purchases -- cutting edge junk that falls apart or doesn't work well, things that are too light and break, bizarre designs good for one thing like some of the newer gravel bike designs that really shine in specific conditions and pretty much suck everywhere else. I don't support buying a bike as a display of wealth. Lou's Canyon doesn't fall into any of those categories.

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.


A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.


I think at the moment that is the best bike you can buy for that kind of money.

Lou


But, having read the reference site it appears that one needs several
bicycles. There is the Road Bike, one assumes for riding on the roads,
and the Gravity bike? to ride in grave moments one supposes, then
there is the Urban bike for riding in the city and the Fitness bike
when one want to get some exercise. Damn! Four separate bicycles to do
what I can do with one 20 year old steel frame bike?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #27  
Old May 26th 19, 11:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,203
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 4:11:41 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/26/2019 3:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 11:45:03 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/26/2019 11:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.

A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.

OK. I was taking a guess on the price. But that's still less than some
wheel sets.

And Raleigh Pro - best in the world? Probably not, I agree. That was my
friend's statement, not mine. Only one bike at a time can be "the best
in the world." But back in those days, if everyone could agree on the
"best" - whatever it was - it probably wasn't much different from that
Raleigh.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.

I'm sure it's a great bike for its intended purpose. (Even though it has
- gasp! - rim brakes.)

BTW, in 1976 I spent close to $1,000 on a custom steel sport touring bike with Phil hubs and BB and some other exotic components like ER Ti spindle pedals (that broke), but not Campy except for some cable clips. It was mostly Dura Ace. My next bike was an all Campy and Phil racing bike. It was gorgeous. I bought it to retaliate against my meager savings account. I spent a huge amount of my college earnings on bike stuff. I bought a used '69 PX10 while in high school. Had I only invested in IBM stock!

I'd have been jealous. When I got into bicycling I was married and
making not much money. In no time there were kids to raise, houses to
buy, etc. I actually traded to acquire a used Raleigh Super Course, my
first "good" bike. It was years later that I bought my first "new" bike.

That Super Course was my only bike for many years, and I rode it on
tours, commutes, utility rides, club rides, etc. I remember taking the
rear rack and sometimes the fenders off to ride centuries.

But speaking of equipment: In the 1980s, some young bucks in our bike
club staged "Survival of the Fittest" rides, fast out-and-back training
rides. The ride info said things like "No stops, no wimps."

I didn't ride with that crowd - they were all younger than me - but one
day I decided to try it. I stripped the bike down and showed up, the
only guy on clinchers; the only guy running SunTour instead of Campy;
the only guy without cleats, and probably the only one without double
butted tubing, etc. Certainly the only guy with a handlebar bag. I was
fairly nervous getting my bike off the roof rack, and even more so when
the ride leader came over and said "We're just riding to XXXX along
route YYYY and back, so when you get dropped you can find your way back."

So maybe 15 riders started off fast, mostly single file, with me
somewhere in the middle. I remember watching the guy in front of me
(whom I still know) almost immediately missing a shift with his Campy
derailleur. I was really concentrating on not losing the draft, keeping
low on the bike, choosing the best gear, and just not getting dropped.
By my standards, we were really moving.

To my amazement, at the first significant rise - not really a hill - a
gap opened up somewhere behind. And at the second or third rise, more
guys fell off. I even passed a few. So at the turnaround, I was fairly
close to the front.

Then the main hotshot, whose parents were good friends, sort of pulled a
nasty trick. While people were still getting oriented for the
turnaround, he said "Let's go!" and took off. Only four of us happened
to be right with him, so everyone else was behind a gap. We took off in
a four or five man paceline.

... which became a three man paceline at another short uphill. Both I
and one other guy tried to take our turns pulling, but the fast leader
wouldn't let us, so we followed his wheel. And about two miles from the
end on another rise, the other guy fell off. So I cranked in behind the
fastest guy, well ahead of anyone else.

The fast young guy was really complimentary. The guy who set up the ride
came over too, and said "You did _great!" and slapped my back. But all
the other riders were silent. I could hear some of them glumly talking
about their tires, their chains and other equipment. Nobody wanted to
talk about my tires or derailleurs.

I drove home happy, but I didn't do that ride again. Job, house, wife,
kids ... and not enough money to switch to tubulars and Campy.


Imagine if you had been on a light bike with tubulars. You would have dropped the fast guy. Another missed opportunity. You might have gotten a pro contract. A slow person on a fast bike will still be slow. A fast person on a slow bike will be slower than if he were on a fast bike.

After 1973-75 or thereabouts, Shimano and Suntour offered a better value and a functionally better (and lighter in some cases) product than Campagnolo. It just looked crappy in comparison and wasn't nearly as robust. With Campy products like the Rally touring derailleur, that meant you had a ****ty shifting derailleur that would last forever. Woohooo! By 1984, I was back to Shimano, and I stopped buying Dura Ace shortly thereafter since 600EX (Ultegra) was such a good value. Even my best current bikes have Ultegra.


Yeah, last year I had to disassemble and lubricate a Campy Rally
derailleur for a friend who dragged his old touring bike out of storage.
I also fixed or lubricated or tuned everything else on that bike. During
my brief post-tuneup test ride, it didn't seem like a wonderful derailleur.

  #28  
Old May 27th 19, 12:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,330
Default Disk Brakes Again

On 5/26/2019 5:49 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 10:03:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:27:34 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 7:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:08:51 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

You don’t have to be a pro to be competitive. That argument is not only
specious but insulting.

I said "What doesn't make sense is very ordinary riders mimicking every choice
the pro racers make."

That seems insulting to you?

Why?

Because you belittle people for buying light equipment and supposedly "mimicking" pro racers. That is an unmistakable put down. How could that not be insulting?
What is an acceptable Frank bike? A Flying Pigeon?

Well, what I actually said was "mimicking every choice the pro racers
make." That was much more than just buying light equipment.

And of course, I'm not trying to forbid anything. I'm trying to discuss.

I have many riding friends. I've watched them buy custom steel bikes,
super-light aluminum ones, carbon fiber ones, aero ones, recumbents and
more. I've watched them follow every shifter upgrade from 5 cog friction
through 11 cog electronic. (Well, no Rohloffs yet in my crowd.) I've
seen guys go though great lengths to lighten their existing bikes. A few
now have switched to disc brakes. A couple are experimenting with wider
tires - 32 to 35 mm or so.

I'm sorry, but I just haven't see all that make a difference. The guys
who were faster than me (almost always the ones who put serious time,
effort and pain into training) stayed faster than me. The ones who were
slower stayed slower.

I know there are guys who enjoy hard riding with buddies and sprinting
to the next telephone pole. I've done plenty of that. And if one guy
like that drops a couple thousand bucks on new aero carbon wheels, he'll
win a few more telephone pole trophies. If, that is, there actually were
telephone pole trophies. But should he really feel proud for outspending
his friend? And if the friend retaliates with even pricier equipment,
what's the point?

Nobody I know is retaliating against anyone by buying "pricier" equipment.

I'm not giving anyone a free pass here. There are stupid purchases -- cutting edge junk that falls apart or doesn't work well, things that are too light and break, bizarre designs good for one thing like some of the newer gravel bike designs that really shine in specific conditions and pretty much suck everywhere else. I don't support buying a bike as a display of wealth. Lou's Canyon doesn't fall into any of those categories.

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.

A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.


I think at the moment that is the best bike you can buy for that kind of money.

Lou


But, having read the reference site it appears that one needs several
bicycles. There is the Road Bike, one assumes for riding on the roads,
and the Gravity bike? to ride in grave moments one supposes, then
there is the Urban bike for riding in the city and the Fitness bike
when one want to get some exercise. Damn! Four separate bicycles to do
what I can do with one 20 year old steel frame bike?



Four bicycles is not ridiculous. A Sunday morning road bike,
my beloved ancient Raleigh with steel mudguards, and a cute
little folder that easily goes with me to other cities where
local auto driving is undesirable. Then my fixie, which was
built expressly to avoid winter salt on the other bikes.

YMMV and probably does but each of them fills a real need
better than the others do. I gave away or sold everything else.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #29  
Old May 27th 19, 12:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,882
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 3:50:02 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 10:03:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:27:34 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 7:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:08:51 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

You don’t have to be a pro to be competitive. That argument is not only
specious but insulting.

I said "What doesn't make sense is very ordinary riders mimicking every choice
the pro racers make."

That seems insulting to you?

Why?

Because you belittle people for buying light equipment and supposedly "mimicking" pro racers. That is an unmistakable put down. How could that not be insulting?
What is an acceptable Frank bike? A Flying Pigeon?

Well, what I actually said was "mimicking every choice the pro racers
make." That was much more than just buying light equipment.

And of course, I'm not trying to forbid anything. I'm trying to discuss.

I have many riding friends. I've watched them buy custom steel bikes,
super-light aluminum ones, carbon fiber ones, aero ones, recumbents and
more. I've watched them follow every shifter upgrade from 5 cog friction
through 11 cog electronic. (Well, no Rohloffs yet in my crowd.) I've
seen guys go though great lengths to lighten their existing bikes. A few
now have switched to disc brakes. A couple are experimenting with wider
tires - 32 to 35 mm or so.

I'm sorry, but I just haven't see all that make a difference. The guys
who were faster than me (almost always the ones who put serious time,
effort and pain into training) stayed faster than me. The ones who were
slower stayed slower.

I know there are guys who enjoy hard riding with buddies and sprinting
to the next telephone pole. I've done plenty of that. And if one guy
like that drops a couple thousand bucks on new aero carbon wheels, he'll
win a few more telephone pole trophies. If, that is, there actually were
telephone pole trophies. But should he really feel proud for outspending
his friend? And if the friend retaliates with even pricier equipment,
what's the point?

Nobody I know is retaliating against anyone by buying "pricier" equipment.

I'm not giving anyone a free pass here. There are stupid purchases -- cutting edge junk that falls apart or doesn't work well, things that are too light and break, bizarre designs good for one thing like some of the newer gravel bike designs that really shine in specific conditions and pretty much suck everywhere else. I don't support buying a bike as a display of wealth. Lou's Canyon doesn't fall into any of those categories.

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.

A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.


I think at the moment that is the best bike you can buy for that kind of money.

Lou


But, having read the reference site it appears that one needs several
bicycles. There is the Road Bike, one assumes for riding on the roads,
and the Gravity bike? to ride in grave moments one supposes, then
there is the Urban bike for riding in the city and the Fitness bike
when one want to get some exercise. Damn! Four separate bicycles to do
what I can do with one 20 year old steel frame bike?


You should see all the bikes we needed in 1951 -- from World Travelers to Hornets. https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCa...960/index.html Hornet? To ride when one feels like stinging someone one supposes. A Phantom when one feels like being invisible? https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCa...0/1953_01.html Pffff. Ten separate bikes to do what I can do on my two year old carbon fiber disc Synapse. Thank God for the modern era. No more of those bar end streamers!

-- Jay Beattie.
  #30  
Old May 27th 19, 12:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,257
Default Disk Brakes Again

On 5/26/2019 7:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/26/2019 5:49 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 10:03:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:27:34 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 7:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:08:51 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

You don’t have to be a pro to be competitive.* That argument is
not only
specious but insulting.

I said "What doesn't make sense is very ordinary riders mimicking
every choice
the pro racers make."

That seems insulting to you?

Why?

Because you belittle people for buying light equipment and
supposedly "mimicking" pro racers.* That is an unmistakable put
down. How could that not be insulting?
What is an acceptable Frank bike?* A Flying Pigeon?

Well, what I actually said was "mimicking every choice the pro racers
make." That was much more than just buying light equipment.

And of course, I'm not trying to forbid anything. I'm trying to
discuss.

I have many riding friends. I've watched them buy custom steel bikes,
super-light aluminum ones, carbon fiber ones, aero ones, recumbents
and
more. I've watched them follow every shifter upgrade from 5 cog
friction
through 11 cog electronic. (Well, no Rohloffs yet in my crowd.) I've
seen guys go though great lengths to lighten their existing bikes.
A few
now have switched to disc brakes. A couple are experimenting with
wider
tires - 32 to 35 mm or so.

I'm sorry, but I just haven't see all that make a difference. The guys
who were faster than me (almost always the ones who put serious time,
effort and pain into training) stayed faster than me. The ones who
were
slower stayed slower.

I know there are guys who enjoy hard riding with buddies and sprinting
to the next telephone pole. I've done plenty of that. And if one guy
like that drops a couple thousand bucks on new aero carbon wheels,
he'll
win a few more telephone pole trophies. If, that is, there actually
were
telephone pole trophies. But should he really feel proud for
outspending
his friend? And if the friend retaliates with even pricier equipment,
what's the point?

Nobody I know is retaliating against anyone by buying "pricier"
equipment.

I'm not giving anyone a free pass here.* There are stupid purchases
-- cutting edge junk that falls apart or doesn't work well, things
that are too light and break, bizarre designs good for one thing
like some of the newer gravel bike designs that really shine in
specific conditions and pretty much suck everywhere else. I don't
support buying a bike as a display of wealth. Lou's Canyon doesn't
fall into any of those categories.

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One
of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best
stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best
bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.

A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh
Pro was $650.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html
Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.

For that money today, you can get this:
https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0
Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank
for the buck.

I think at the moment that is the best bike you can buy for that kind
of money.

Lou


But, having read the reference site it appears that one needs several
bicycles. There is the Road Bike, one assumes for riding on the roads,
and the Gravity bike? to ride in grave moments one supposes, then
there is the Urban bike for riding in the city and the Fitness bike
when one want to get some exercise. Damn! Four separate bicycles to do
what I can do with one* 20 year old steel frame bike?



Four bicycles is not ridiculous. A Sunday morning road bike, my beloved
ancient Raleigh with steel mudguards, and a cute little folder that
easily goes with me to other cities where local auto driving is
undesirable. Then my fixie, which was built expressly to avoid winter
salt on the other bikes.

YMMV and probably does but each of them fills a real need better than
the others do. I gave away or sold everything else.


We have ten between the two of us. Oops, plus an ancient antique
(1930s?) stored in the attic of the garage. Oh, and one kids bike to use
as a loaner.

I guess I could give three of the ten away, those that are used only
very rarely...


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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