I finally get it: If GW is not man-made, then God is punishingus with it

"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
[...]
But you make the mistake of equating Communism with Socialism. Nothing
could be further from the truth. You have this tendency to lump everything
you hate as being leftist. Rather shallow thinking.

There are thin lines between the various ideologies of the left.
[...]

Russia was not Socialist, it was communist. In Russia, if a company did
not do as the State wished the leaders of that company were frequently
jailed (or worse). No such thing ever happened in Nazi Germany.

The Germans were more disciplined than the Russians. They knew what they
needed to do in order to stay in business.
[...]

Odd that you have such contempt for socialism when you are such a clear
supporter of such socialist policies as the Medicare drug bill.

Yes, I recognize that, but if education K-12 can be made a right, why not
health care for everyone regardless of ability to pay. I favor a single
payer system like they have in Canada. Is this socialism? Only if you grant
that public education is also socialism.

As far as rightest policies, that is the root of the creation of trade
unions. Child labor and sweat shops all come from the extension of letting
capitalists do whatever they want.

I'm a big proponent of capitalism, as are all democrats. I do not
believe that corporate America should do whatever it wished. That
ultimately is the design of all policies of the extreme right. Destroying
government and deregulating business. You don't care when that turns out
badly because it fits your ideology, I do.

Nope, I want regulation of corporations and of businesses in general. No one
should ever be free to do whatever they want at the expense of the public
good.

Leftists do not like capitalism. They would replace it with state control of
everything if they could.

Most democrats take a relatively balanced position, somewhere near the
center. The Republican Party and the Tea Partiers in particular are being
driven further and further right. Expelling and rejecting their more
moderate members. In essence they have looked back on their past failures
and have said, we did not go far enough. Repeating actions that have
previously resulted in failure and expecting a different result is
craziness.

The main thing they want is less government spending - period! That is what
I want too.

You believe in Sarah, when she has shown over and over that she is
incapable of administering anything. She is clueless about actual policies
and chooses to remain so. It would get in the way of her blind faith in
herself. There is a long history of the failure to educate Sarah. Not only
by Republicans but by the higher education system. How many colleges did
it take before she earned a degree?

No one has ever occupied the office of the presidency with less executive
experience than Obama. Sarah was governor of Alaska. That is good enough for
me.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
Jeff, we need to keep our eye on Iran. It is not an insignificant nation
like North Korea. The leaders there believe all kinds of crazy stuff. We
should be actively engaged in replacing that regime. Once they get the
bomb, it will not be easy to dislodge them.

I believe Obama will be judged not on his domestic policies, but on his
foreign policies. All presidents are. Iran could be his Waterloo. I
believe Obama is weak and will not do what is necessary to control Iran.
I always trusted Bush to protect us from harm. I do not trust Obama to do
the same.

There is little that can be done to stop their capability of making a
bomb. If there was the Israelis would have already done so. There are
plenty of good reasons for that.

There is nothing that can be done to directly support street politics.
That always backfires.

I don't see what Bush did to suppress Iran other to destabilize the
region which is completely counter productive.

Getting rid of Saddam was stabilizing. Iran is a separate problem.

Don't underestimate what Hillary is up to. There is very active
involvement in not only uniting the Arab States but in stabilizing States
such as Yemen. Not the same policies as W followed. Iran is largely
propped up by the UAE. That is the target. Something W did nothing about.

I don't trust any of the Arab states in the region to ever do anything the
least bit sensible.

The likely resolution is the near collapse of the Iranian economy. Then
the Iranian government will be replaced.

In fact it has been economic weakness that has caused the collapse of
all previously dominant states.

Warfare is always the main cause, e.g. Germany and Japan via WWII. The
history of Europe is all about wars and little else.

If Iran gets the bomb, the first thing that will happen is that all the Arab
states in the region will also get the bomb, and they will be able to easily
get the bomb because of their oil wealth. Do you trust that region of the
world to keep the peace?

The US will never desert Israel. Maybe we can have a nice little nuclear war
in the Middle East in the not so distant future. I wonder what that would do
to world oil supplies.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
[...]
You cannot avoid the liberal media since it is everywhere.

The media is all corporate owned. Not so liberal.

It is liberal no matter who owns it.
[...]

Glenn Beck's daily shows are like college seminars. You can learn a lot
by following him.

Except so much is flat out wrong, and you never know because he won't tell
you.

Glenn Beck is very open and above board. There is no deception about him at
all. He wants to take the country back to its origins in the Constitution. I
don't go along with that, but still it is interesting to hear this view
expressed with intelligence and passion.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Edward Dolan wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
Furthermore, the Arabs are notorious for not getting along with one
another. The Iranians are not even Arabs. They are Aryans, which is what
"Iran" means.
I never said otherwise.

The Iraqi relationship with the US is one of necessity. Certainly they
have not helped isolate Iran, which is the largest problem we have with
any state.

I don't count Iraqi "friendship" as a great success.

Nations do not have friends, they only have interests. But I am glad that
you take Iran seriously.

Why wouldn't I? The rise of Iran as a threat is largely due to US
missteps in the region. Fixing those misteps is far more important than
bluster.

Jeff

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Edward Dolan wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
[...]
But you make the mistake of equating Communism with Socialism. Nothing
could be further from the truth. You have this tendency to lump everything
you hate as being leftist. Rather shallow thinking.

There are thin lines between the various ideologies of the left.
[...]
You buy into the narrow arguments of those you already agree with.
That gives you very little real perspective. It is a fault of all right
wing ideologues.

Russia was not Socialist, it was communist. In Russia, if a company did
not do as the State wished the leaders of that company were frequently
jailed (or worse). No such thing ever happened in Nazi Germany.

The Germans were more disciplined than the Russians. They knew what they
needed to do in order to stay in business.
[...]

Just the example of Krupp alone should lead you to the opposite opinion.
Right wing dictatorships are usually enabled by their willing
relationship with big industry. The same applied in Italy. It was a deal
between Hitler and Krupp to break the unions that swong Krupp fully over
to the Nazi side.

On an interesting side note. Hitler was a great admirer of Henry Ford
and even had a photograph of him on his wall. Many reasons for that.



Odd that you have such contempt for socialism when you are such a clear
supporter of such socialist policies as the Medicare drug bill.

Yes, I recognize that, but if education K-12 can be made a right, why not
health care for everyone regardless of ability to pay. I favor a single
payer system like they have in Canada. Is this socialism? Only if you grant
that public education is also socialism.

Then why are those you so avidly support in favor of destruction of
any progress toward the goal of affordable universal care. I've read the
republican outlines, there is little there.

In fact the single largest economic disadvantage that US industry has
is the cost of health care. Hospitals today are stuck with providing
high priced care for those who will never reimburse them. That is
driving up their costs. There is nothing in the Republican plan to
tackle that. The republican plan, such as it is, focuses on giveaways to
business. And of course, has given no consideration to how it shall be
paid for.

In fact, I don't believe I've ever seen any Republican Plan on
anything that includes a method of paying for it. Everything seems to
focus on tax cuts.

Granted, some tax cuts are good, but none ever pay for themselves.
Note the vast expansion of debt to GDP under Reagan.

As far as rightest policies, that is the root of the creation of trade
unions. Child labor and sweat shops all come from the extension of letting
capitalists do whatever they want.

I'm a big proponent of capitalism, as are all democrats. I do not
believe that corporate America should do whatever it wished. That
ultimately is the design of all policies of the extreme right. Destroying
government and deregulating business. You don't care when that turns out
badly because it fits your ideology, I do.

Nope, I want regulation of corporations and of businesses in general. No one
should ever be free to do whatever they want at the expense of the public
good.

Leftists do not like capitalism. They would replace it with state control of
everything if they could.

The left in this country are more akin to the center just about
anywhere else. You think in terms of extremes, which is because your
chosen affiliate thinks that way, but Democrats are not all of one
following. It is their strength, and their failing.

Most democrats take a relatively balanced position, somewhere near the
center. The Republican Party and the Tea Partiers in particular are being
driven further and further right. Expelling and rejecting their more
moderate members. In essence they have looked back on their past failures
and have said, we did not go far enough. Repeating actions that have
previously resulted in failure and expecting a different result is
craziness.

The main thing they want is less government spending - period! That is what
I want too.

Good value for the money spent I believe is most important.
Republicans, because of their innate hatred of government, tend to be
bad stewards.

Now, I believe that most of the huge expansion of government under W
was badly and inefficiently done. I can list example after example.

You believe in Sarah, when she has shown over and over that she is
incapable of administering anything. She is clueless about actual policies
and chooses to remain so. It would get in the way of her blind faith in
herself. There is a long history of the failure to educate Sarah. Not only
by Republicans but by the higher education system. How many colleges did
it take before she earned a degree?

No one has ever occupied the office of the presidency with less executive
experience than Obama. Sarah was governor of Alaska. That is good enough for
me.

She bailed on Alaska leaving nothing accomplished. The natural gas
pipeline she claims as her signature achievement has not let the first
contract. It is today, nothing more than a pipe dream.

In fact, in 2007 Sarah signed the largest Alaska budget in history.
And under her tenure Alaska remained the state with the highest dollar
amount of Federal earmarks per capita.

I find her fiscal talk, to be just that, talk.

Ideas, without accomplishments I find no value in.

Jeff

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Edward Dolan wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
Jeff, we need to keep our eye on Iran. It is not an insignificant nation
like North Korea. The leaders there believe all kinds of crazy stuff. We
should be actively engaged in replacing that regime. Once they get the
bomb, it will not be easy to dislodge them.

I believe Obama will be judged not on his domestic policies, but on his
foreign policies. All presidents are. Iran could be his Waterloo. I
believe Obama is weak and will not do what is necessary to control Iran.
I always trusted Bush to protect us from harm. I do not trust Obama to do
the same.
There is little that can be done to stop their capability of making a
bomb. If there was the Israelis would have already done so. There are
plenty of good reasons for that.

There is nothing that can be done to directly support street politics.
That always backfires.

I don't see what Bush did to suppress Iran other to destabilize the
region which is completely counter productive.

Getting rid of Saddam was stabilizing. Iran is a separate problem.

The trouble is that there was little thought of any consequences. Did
you not note not only the cost estimates given out but the cheery
expected result. Both bearing no relationship to reality.

The war was badly bungled. It was, as all things W, done entirely
seat of the pants. The most incurious of all US presidents did not even
know that there were two factions of Islam.

Don't underestimate what Hillary is up to. There is very active
involvement in not only uniting the Arab States but in stabilizing States
such as Yemen. Not the same policies as W followed. Iran is largely
propped up by the UAE. That is the target. Something W did nothing about.

I don't trust any of the Arab states in the region to ever do anything the
least bit sensible.

The likely resolution is the near collapse of the Iranian economy. Then
the Iranian government will be replaced.

In fact it has been economic weakness that has caused the collapse of
all previously dominant states.

Warfare is always the main cause, e.g. Germany and Japan via WWII. The
history of Europe is all about wars and little else.

The failure to keep the economy running is what caused the failure of
the war effort.

European warfare is rooted in states with the economic muscle to
field and supply large armies. Whenever a state weakened, it was no
longer able to field the military power necessary to control it's territory.

Without doubt, Germany fielded superior technology, and had superior
tactics. It was the industrial might of it's opponents, and the
destruction of it's own industries that sealed it's fate. Superior
tactics and weaponry only ever yield temporary advantage.

If Iran gets the bomb, the first thing that will happen is that all the Arab
states in the region will also get the bomb, and they will be able to easily
get the bomb because of their oil wealth. Do you trust that region of the
world to keep the peace?

Getting a bomb is a huge technological accomplishment. Look at N
Korea, which is only able to make very poorly performing weapons, on the
order of conventional weapons.

The US will never desert Israel.

Who said it would?

Maybe we can have a nice little nuclear war
in the Middle East in the not so distant future. I wonder what that would do
to world oil supplies.

Nothing good will come of Nuclear War. That is why we haven't had one
between the parties capable of doing so.

Jeff

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Edward Dolan wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
[...]
You cannot avoid the liberal media since it is everywhere.
The media is all corporate owned. Not so liberal.

It is liberal no matter who owns it.
[...]

Spoke by a man wearing blinders. I saw a distinct shift.

Glenn Beck's daily shows are like college seminars. You can learn a lot
by following him.
Except so much is flat out wrong, and you never know because he won't tell
you.

Glenn Beck is very open and above board. There is no deception about him at
all. He wants to take the country back to its origins in the Constitution. I
don't go along with that, but still it is interesting to hear this view
expressed with intelligence and passion.

Fine, just don't confuse entertainment with news.

Jeff

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
Nations do not have friends, they only have interests. But I am glad that
you take Iran seriously.

Why wouldn't I? The rise of Iran as a threat is largely due to US
missteps in the region. Fixing those misteps is far more important than
bluster.

The major misstep was not supporting the Shah when he needed our support.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
[...]
But you make the mistake of equating Communism with Socialism. Nothing
could be further from the truth. You have this tendency to lump
everything you hate as being leftist. Rather shallow thinking.

There are thin lines between the various ideologies of the left.
[...]

You buy into the narrow arguments of those you already agree with. That
gives you very little real perspective. It is a fault of all right wing
ideologues.

Liberal - socialist - communist, that is the progression.

Russia was not Socialist, it was communist. In Russia, if a company did
not do as the State wished the leaders of that company were frequently
jailed (or worse). No such thing ever happened in Nazi Germany.

The Germans were more disciplined than the Russians. They knew what they
needed to do in order to stay in business.
[...]

Just the example of Krupp alone should lead you to the opposite opinion.
Right wing dictatorships are usually enabled by their willing relationship
with big industry. The same applied in Italy. It was a deal between Hitler
and Krupp to break the unions that swong Krupp fully over to the Nazi
side.

On an interesting side note. Hitler was a great admirer of Henry Ford and
even had a photograph of him on his wall. Many reasons for that.

Hitler was a leftist, not much different than Stalin.

Odd that you have such contempt for socialism when you are such a clear
supporter of such socialist policies as the Medicare drug bill.

Yes, I recognize that, but if education K-12 can be made a right, why not
health care for everyone regardless of ability to pay. I favor a single
payer system like they have in Canada. Is this socialism? Only if you
grant that public education is also socialism.

Then why are those you so avidly support in favor of destruction of any
progress toward the goal of affordable universal care. I've read the
republican outlines, there is little there.

The Repubs have been terrible on health care reform. It is the main reason
why I often have voted Dem.

In fact the single largest economic disadvantage that US industry has is
the cost of health care. Hospitals today are stuck with providing high
priced care for those who will never reimburse them. That is driving up
their costs. There is nothing in the Republican plan to tackle that. The
republican plan, such as it is, focuses on giveaways to business. And of
course, has given no consideration to how it shall be paid for.

In fact, I don't believe I've ever seen any Republican Plan on anything
that includes a method of paying for it. Everything seems to focus on tax
cuts.

I couldn't agree with you more!

Granted, some tax cuts are good, but none ever pay for themselves. Note
the vast expansion of debt to GDP under Reagan.

Even so, Reagan was a piker compared to Obama.

As far as rightest policies, that is the root of the creation of trade
unions. Child labor and sweat shops all come from the extension of
letting capitalists do whatever they want.

I'm a big proponent of capitalism, as are all democrats. I do not
believe that corporate America should do whatever it wished. That
ultimately is the design of all policies of the extreme right.
Destroying government and deregulating business. You don't care when
that turns out badly because it fits your ideology, I do.

Nope, I want regulation of corporations and of businesses in general. No
one should ever be free to do whatever they want at the expense of the
public good.

Leftists do not like capitalism. They would replace it with state control
of everything if they could.

The left in this country are more akin to the center just about anywhere
else. You think in terms of extremes, which is because your chosen
affiliate thinks that way, but Democrats are not all of one following. It
is their strength, and their failing.

It is the liberal Dems that I inveigh against. The old time Dems were just
fine with me.

Most democrats take a relatively balanced position, somewhere near the
center. The Republican Party and the Tea Partiers in particular are
being driven further and further right. Expelling and rejecting their
more moderate members. In essence they have looked back on their past
failures and have said, we did not go far enough. Repeating actions that
have previously resulted in failure and expecting a different result is
craziness.

The main thing they want is less government spending - period! That is
what I want too.

Good value for the money spent I believe is most important. Republicans,
because of their innate hatred of government, tend to be bad stewards.

Conservatives want smaller government and less spending. I am all for that.

Now, I believe that most of the huge expansion of government under W was
badly and inefficiently done. I can list example after example.

You believe in Sarah, when she has shown over and over that she is
incapable of administering anything. She is clueless about actual
policies and chooses to remain so. It would get in the way of her blind
faith in herself. There is a long history of the failure to educate
Sarah. Not only by Republicans but by the higher education system. How
many colleges did it take before she earned a degree?

No one has ever occupied the office of the presidency with less executive
experience than Obama. Sarah was governor of Alaska. That is good enough
for me.

She bailed on Alaska leaving nothing accomplished. The natural gas
pipeline she claims as her signature achievement has not let the first
contract. It is today, nothing more than a pipe dream.

Well, like I said before, Alaska has always been ****ed up. The best thing
about her is that she fought the Repub establishment while governor.

In fact, in 2007 Sarah signed the largest Alaska budget in history. And
under her tenure Alaska remained the state with the highest dollar amount
of Federal earmarks per capita.

Not many folks living in Alaska.

I find her fiscal talk, to be just that, talk.

Ideas, without accomplishments I find no value in.

Sarah has an engaging personality. It is impossible not to like her if you
are from the Midwest.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"jeff" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
Getting rid of Saddam was stabilizing. Iran is a separate problem.

The trouble is that there was little thought of any consequences. Did you
not note not only the cost estimates given out but the cheery expected
result. Both bearing no relationship to reality.

The war was badly bungled. It was, as all things W, done entirely seat
of the pants. The most incurious of all US presidents did not even know
that there were two factions of Islam.

All US presidents have access to expert counsel.
[...]

Warfare is always the main cause, e.g. Germany and Japan via WWII. The
history of Europe is all about wars and little else.

The failure to keep the economy running is what caused the failure of
the war effort.

It was Russian arms that ultimately defeated Germany in WWII.

European warfare is rooted in states with the economic muscle to field
and supply large armies. Whenever a state weakened, it was no longer able
to field the military power necessary to control it's territory.

Without doubt, Germany fielded superior technology, and had superior
tactics. It was the industrial might of it's opponents, and the
destruction of it's own industries that sealed it's fate. Superior tactics
and weaponry only ever yield temporary advantage.

Russia enjoyed an immense superiority in all of its arms toward the end of
the war. Germany needed a quick win in order to prevail.

If Iran gets the bomb, the first thing that will happen is that all the
Arab states in the region will also get the bomb, and they will be able
to easily get the bomb because of their oil wealth. Do you trust that
region of the world to keep the peace?

Getting a bomb is a huge technological accomplishment. Look at N Korea,
which is only able to make very poorly performing weapons, on the order of
conventional weapons.

The Arabs will simply buy the nuclear weapons from outside.

A lot of this is purely psychological I must admit. But still, we do not
want Iran to have nuclear weapons.

The US will never desert Israel.

Who said it would?

Obama is not sympathetic to Israel.

Maybe we can have a nice little nuclear war
in the Middle East in the not so distant future. I wonder what that would
do to world oil supplies.

Nothing good will come of Nuclear War. That is why we haven't had one
between the parties capable of doing so.

Israel has nuclear weapons and they will use them if it comes down to that.
One holocaust is more than enough for the Jews.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota