MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 4/2/2018 12:21 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary.
Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy
business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them.
Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB
riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical
disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the
others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up
you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles
commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of
performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the
two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute
MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak
compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs.
braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a
two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did
and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard.

Both of those statements are probably false. You're "Monday morning
quarterbacking." As usual, you may enjoy it, but it doesn't prove you're
smart.

Most of those riders probably do more mountain biking than you do. They
all do far more annual mileage than you do. They probably read more
about cycling, discuss more with peers, listen more to professional
coaches, spend more time practicing technique, and can shame you in any
head-to-head contest.

I doubt any of those guys would be foolish enough to say "Aw, I can
design electronic circuits better than Joerg." They're smarter than that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2018-04-02 09:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 12:21 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary.
Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy
business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them.
Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty
MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical
disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables
that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable
the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up
you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles
commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of
performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between
the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute
MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak
compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs.
braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from
a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think
dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a
while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did
and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard.

Both of those statements are probably false.


They are not.


... You're "Monday morning
quarterbacking." As usual, you may enjoy it, but it doesn't prove you're
smart.


Look at the video. You honestly believe that remaining on or above the
saddle when needing to decelerate fast is smart? If so, please stop
giving classes, it's dangerous.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-04-02 09:45, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:


Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a
while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour
de France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

It wasn't posted by me, but it was the Tour of Utah, not the Tour de
France. And some riders slid back on their seats, some did not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyRqN7ukxrw


And which ones crashed? Does it dawn now?

Why do you think downhillers have drop posts?


Joerg, you seem to think sliding back on the seat is magic. It's not.
Under ideal conditions, it might allow a bit greater bike control by
raising the maximum deceleration before losing rear wheel contact. I
calculate 7.6% increase in rear "liftoff" deceleration with my touring
bike. In the video, I doubt that modest difference would have prevented
any crashes. And in many sudden emergency situations, it's probably
better to think about other things than "Where's my butt?"


No, the trick is to not even have to think but do this instinctively.
Every percent increase in deceleration is worth it. Even if you do
crash, it makes a difference whether you smack into something with a
remaining speed to 15mph or 20mph.


Back to gripping the lever: Drop post or no, sliding back or no, I don't
see much benefit in reducing lever force below a certain level. Whether
we're talking about brake mechanical advantage, or headlight brightness,
or clothing visibility or whatever, there's no need to go to ridiculous
extremes.


Agreed, lever force doesn't mean much. That's just something I find
rather comfortable. What was key for me is that the chance of
overheating the brakes drops substantially when upgrading the rotor
size. So I went to the (reasonable) max front and back. I will never go
back to rotors smaller than 8".

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 4/2/2018 1:05 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 09:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 12:21 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary.
Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy
business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them.
Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty
MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical
disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables
that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable
the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up
you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles
commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of
performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between
the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute
MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak
compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really
talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs.
braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that
amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from
a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly
green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think
dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a
while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did
and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard.

Both of those statements are probably false.


They are not.

Ah! Well, that's conclusive! ;-)


Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ... You're "Monday morning
quarterbacking." As usual, you may enjoy it, but it doesn't prove you're
smart.


Look at the video. You honestly believe that remaining on or above the
saddle when needing to decelerate fast is smart? If so, please stop
giving classes, it's dangerous.

Let's talk specifics. Pick a rider who crashed. Tell me what he should
have done differently.

The first rider who crashed enters the video at 0:20 and is already
sliding sideways. You may say he would be in perfect control if his butt
was behind his seat, but it's very doubtful. We can't see what happened
up the hill. He's going far faster than most and may already have had to
avoid a crash by steering around rather than by braking.

Note the riders at 0:27 and 0:28 did fine sitting on their saddles.

The guy about to hit the motorcycle at 0:37 has his butt back but his
rear wheel is still in the air.

If you want to "Monday morning quarterback," apply it to the team car
drivers and motorcycle riders. Why did they think it was a good idea to
block the road before a hairpin turn on a super-steep downhill?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 10:31:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/1/2018 9:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

And yet, for decades, I rode rim brakes in the rain, mud, etc. The downside was the rim-lathe of grit against aluminum rims and momentary loss of braking, but on a wet surface, the real problem has always been traction.

The two times my bike didn't stop in the rain due to brake issues we (1) pulling a trailer with my son in it on poorly adjusted cantis with STI levers, and (2) descending a sled run out of the West Hills with worn and unadjusted pads on cable discs. I stopped and dialed in the pads which solved that problem. In both cases, hard braking would have had me skidding down a wet road or path.

I rode maybe 40-50 miles yesterday all climbing and descending on my uber-bike (no instrumentation and no idea of elevation) with direct mount calipers. It was dry, and I didn't give my brakes a moment's thought. My braking issues were all about when I slowed and road surface quality.

You may have done this for decades, but you were not having any fun
doing so.

I have a friend who used to go on and on about the greatness of Price
Club (now Costco). I asked him "Tom, how did you survive before Price
Club?" His response: "I survived, but it wasn't much of a life."

I was riding yesterday on the Synapse that replaced the stolen Roubaix that replaced the Cannondale CAAD 9 that went to college with my son. We're getting all my son's bikes from Utah this weekend, including the CAAD 9 and three other bikes. The Roubaix was recovered. We have way too many bikes!

Also coming back is a Windsor Knight -- a $150 frame from Bike Island that I built with a lot of left over 9 speed parts. It was my son's first "fast" bike. I'm going to steal all the parts for my commuter (spares) and Craigs list the frame. The CAAD 9 will probably go, too, since my son wants a disc commuter. He gets pro deal on Cannondale, so he'll probably get a disc bike from them.

Anyway, I was riding around on the Synapse which has both discs and UDi2. It was sprinkling a little but not horrible, so the superior braking was really irrelevant. The Di2 was neat because you can climb out of the saddle and buzz through the gears. It shifts really well under load, so doing the long rollers common to the hinterland, it was like taking an escalator up. https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3539/3...f58a6d14_b.jpg Does this make riding more fun? Well, it beats the sh** out of having to flop down into the saddle and use DT friction shifting. It's also awesome to have so many gears now that I am decrepit. I NEED the gears now, but I could live with cable STI and rim brakes.

If you threw me back on my 1976 custom SP racing bike with 52/42 13-21 5sp and a slammed Cinelli stem, I would be demonstrably unhappy -- and walking a lot.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 6:21:35 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did
and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I found the
video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others did
wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains.

The first rider who crashed rode the wrong line with a ridiculous high speed. Even with his ass on the rear wheel would not prevent that crash. Further there are some morons on the motor and in cars who stopped on a really stupid spot. Amateurs. Was this a pro race?

Lou

On 2018-04-02 10:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 1:05 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 09:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 12:21 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary.
Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy
business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them.
Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty
MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical
disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables
that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable
the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up
you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles
commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of
performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between
the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute
MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak
compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really
talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs.
braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by
traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that
amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from
a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly
green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think
dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a
while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did
and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard.

Both of those statements are probably false.


They are not.

Ah! Well, that's conclusive! ;-)


... You're "Monday morning
quarterbacking." As usual, you may enjoy it, but it doesn't prove you're
smart.


Look at the video. You honestly believe that remaining on or above the
saddle when needing to decelerate fast is smart? If so, please stop
giving classes, it's dangerous.

Let's talk specifics. Pick a rider who crashed. Tell me what he should
have done differently.



sigh

Is it really that difficult?

First crashed rider, way too fast, still in saddle at 0:21min which is
less than a second before impact. I would have been way behind the
saddle many seconds earlier.

0:37min, rider in green jersey, same thing. The one to the right of him
looks like he is trying to scoot behind the saddle at O:37min but that
is way too late. And not surprisingly they both crash.

Of course, the people in the cars and on motorcycles were not very smart
either, remaining right in the curve where cyclists need all the
maneuvering space they could get. That was stupid.

BTW, at 0:05min you can see a rider who has proper skills. The one
behind him at 0:08min doesn't.



The first rider who crashed enters the video at 0:20 and is already
sliding sideways.


Put you thinking cap on and ponder the reasons.


... You may say he would be in perfect control if his butt
was behind his seat, but it's very doubtful. We can't see what happened
up the hill. He's going far faster than most and may already have had to
avoid a crash by steering around rather than by braking.


Yes, he was too fast which was his first mistake but the sliding clearly
could have been prevented. He might even have flown off the road even if
there weren't any cars.


Note the riders at 0:27 and 0:28 did fine sitting on their saddles.


Sure, because they approached the curve very slowly, as I would have.
There is no need to "belly-ride" a bike when you know there isn't much
more deceleration needed.

This might surprise you but I do remain in the saddle on my MTB most of
the time.


The guy about to hit the motorcycle at 0:37 has his butt back but his
rear wheel is still in the air.


Not enough. Moving a few inches back does not cut it.


If you want to "Monday morning quarterback," apply it to the team car
drivers and motorcycle riders. Why did they think it was a good idea to
block the road before a hairpin turn on a super-steep downhill?


Yes, they were stupid.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 4/2/2018 1:11 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 09:45, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:


Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a
two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a
while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour
de France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

It wasn't posted by me, but it was the Tour of Utah, not the Tour de
France. And some riders slid back on their seats, some did not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyRqN7ukxrw


And which ones crashed? Does it dawn now?

Watch it again. Get specific. Many stayed on their saddles and did not
crash. At least one guy was behind his seatpost and still crashed.

Why do you think downhillers have drop posts?

Hold on, Joerg. If you want to talk mountain biking, we'll do that. If
you want to talk about bicycling on roads, the question becomes "Why
doesn't EVERYONE have dropper seatposts?" (My bet is that you don't.)
Joerg, you seem to think sliding back on the seat is magic. It's not.
Under ideal conditions, it might allow a bit greater bike control by
raising the maximum deceleration before losing rear wheel contact. I
calculate 7.6% increase in rear "liftoff" deceleration with my touring
bike. In the video, I doubt that modest difference would have prevented
any crashes. And in many sudden emergency situations, it's probably
better to think about other things than "Where's my butt?"

No, the trick is to not even have to think but do this instinctively.
Every percent increase in deceleration is worth it. Even if you do
crash, it makes a difference whether you smack into something with a
remaining speed to 15mph or 20mph.

Look, I first read about this trick back in the mid-1970s. It was taught
in the first nationally sanctioned cycling class I took in (IIRC) 1978.
I taught it myself in cycling classes. Doing it well takes quite a bit
of practice. Doing it at a moment's notice? That's even tougher.

But for road riding, its utility is marginal at best. For one thing, it
is very unlikely to cause a difference of 5 mph. We can go through the
physics, but again: it will allow only about 7.5% more deceleration
before lifting the rear wheel. For my touring bike, that deceleration is
6.8 m/s^2 vs. 6.3 m/s^2. The difference is a bit more on a steep grade,
as you might expect, but at 15% grade it's still less than 10%
difference in deceleration with control.

Then there are the other aspects of control. Your contact with the
saddle is important for control of the bike. (Many who have tried
alternative saddles without a saddle "nose" have noted the decrease in
control.) If you were to get in the habit of sliding way back for -
what? - most braking? Every potential quick stop? ... then you might end
up in more crashes by otherwise losing control of the bike.

This is probably why people don't instinctively do this all the time.
Its benefits are marginal, and it does have detriments. Sometimes the
benefits are greater, sometimes they're not.

Now look again at those crashes. The first guy who crashed was going FAR
faster than other riders. I don't know what happened uphill, but getting
his butt behind his saddle wasn't going to save that butt. If he hadn't
hit the car, he'd have hit one of those pine trees. No way he was going
to stop within the roadway. I think that's true of the next guy, too,
the one who hit the side of the motorcycle.

The entire scene is best described starting with the word "cluster" and
I'll let others finish. But pretending you'd have responded better to
that chaos? No, Joerg. We know you're a macho, manly genius, but just... no.

Back to gripping the lever: Drop post or no, sliding back or no, I don't
see much benefit in reducing lever force below a certain level. Whether
we're talking about brake mechanical advantage, or headlight brightness,
or clothing visibility or whatever, there's no need to go to ridiculous
extremes.


Agreed, lever force doesn't mean much. That's just something I find
rather comfortable. What was key for me is that the chance of
overheating the brakes drops substantially when upgrading the rotor
size. So I went to the (reasonable) max front and back. I will never go
back to rotors smaller than 8".

Yeah, mine are closer to 25".

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/2/2018 1:51 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 10:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:

The first rider who crashed enters the video at 0:20 and is already
sliding sideways.

Put you thinking cap on and ponder the reasons.

You don't know the reasons! You don't know what he was dealing with just
before he enters the frame! Pretending all would be cured by a different
riding posture is nonsense.


Yes, he was too fast which was his first mistake...

Note the riders at 0:27 and 0:28 did fine sitting on their saddles.

Sure, because they approached the curve very slowly, as I would have.

Well, there you have it! The Monday morning quarterback would have raced
much more slowly! Gosh, why don't more racers think of that simple
strategy? ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did
and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I found the
video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others did
wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains.

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road champ and pro-continental cyclist. He made a split second error on the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash. Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was just a line of traffic up ahead.

“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road but the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan, really..

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in front of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the corner, I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.�

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything until he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing�.

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel any pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,� he said of that first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****, this is really bad’.�

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders were wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes after a grueling climb..

I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even steeper and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden it many times on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If you pick a wrong line, you're toast -- no matter how far you scoot back on your seat, and heavy braking even with your weight back will get you sliding sideways down the bank of the turn. And the road has that dusty slough on it.


-- Jay Beattie.