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#221
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Stronger rubber cement?
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 6:25:17 PM UTC-5, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Wed, 18 Jan 2017 07:36:48 -0800 the perfect time to write: On 2017-01-17 15:26, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote: analog, I will not explain tire mounting again. Retard at your own speed I have explained to you that these are _flat_ rims. Hard to understand? Most of us never seem to have encountered such rims, so yes, it is hard to understand that any manufacturer would produce such an utterly useless design! Are you sure they aren't cheap Chinese knockoffs of a normally good quality product? Joerg won't change his rims or tires or most any other component in order to alleviate any particular problem that he has. To do so would remove a reason for him to complain here on RBT about something and/or start another useless thread that runs for many, many pages. Cheers |
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#222
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Stronger rubber cement?
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 00:48:02 +0000, Phil Lee
wrote: jbeattie considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:10:48 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 5:59:34 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote: On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 07:50:19 -0800, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles. Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a bicycle. You talk about your auto escapades as hauling a half a cord of wood in your SUV. You describe your bicycle riding as speeding down rocky hills, leaping over bumps and unexpectedly diving into lakes. If you drove your car the way that you claim to ride your bike I think that you would have a very different concept of how bullet proof your car is. I've spent considerable time around trucks that haul heavy loads over unimproved roads and my experience was that they definitely did require frequent repairs. I've also been around off the road racing cars and they took even more maintenance than the trucks. As usual, you are not comparing apples and apples. I ride with a guy who races motorcycles. He can go through a set of tires over the course of weekend -- and they cost a mint. Talk about an expensive hobby. -- Jay Beattie. Only one set? That must be a restricted formula. When I used to help as an amateur mechanic for my neighbour, who raced motorcycles to a national level, tyres lasted exactly one race. likewise chains. Piston rings, one day, pistons, a weekend, cylinders several times in a year, clutches before each meeting. Plus anything that breaks, and of course, different internal gears and sprockets are used for each circuit, to give the best gearing, along with different pad compounds and disk diameters to suit circuit and conditions. Various other parts were replaced on a regular basis as well, but it's a long time ago now, so my list is not exhaustive. Tyres capable of performing in the wet would be shredded in a couple of laps if the circuit dried out. The grinding from mud, dust, grit and sand creates even greater wear on racing motocross bikes, and to increase performance, intake air is barely filtered, if at all. At the more extreme level (F1, Indy, NASCAR for cars, IoM-TT for bikes), tyres are changed several times DURING the race, and the cars or bikes are essentially new for each meeting, with ALL parts that can possibly wear being replaced, and often other parts swapped for ones more suitable for the different circuit! The most extreme example I can think of off-hand is Formula E, where the entire car is changed half-way through each race, when the battery goes flat - so all the other allowed wear components are designed to last only half a race! That is a fairer comparison for a machine which you ride to it's limits, not your false one of a softly tuned road vehicle, designed to reach it's warranty period even if driven to the limits the road will allow, if properly serviced and normal wear items replaced on schedule. In drag racing a AA fueler - now called Top Fuel" may replace the engine after a 1/4 mile :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#223
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Stronger rubber cement?
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:36:17 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote: On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 4:48:04 PM UTC-8, Phil Lee wrote: jbeattie considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:10:48 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 5:59:34 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote: On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 07:50:19 -0800, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles. Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a bicycle. You talk about your auto escapades as hauling a half a cord of wood in your SUV. You describe your bicycle riding as speeding down rocky hills, leaping over bumps and unexpectedly diving into lakes. If you drove your car the way that you claim to ride your bike I think that you would have a very different concept of how bullet proof your car is. I've spent considerable time around trucks that haul heavy loads over unimproved roads and my experience was that they definitely did require frequent repairs. I've also been around off the road racing cars and they took even more maintenance than the trucks. As usual, you are not comparing apples and apples. I ride with a guy who races motorcycles. He can go through a set of tires over the course of weekend -- and they cost a mint. Talk about an expensive hobby. -- Jay Beattie. Only one set? That must be a restricted formula. When I used to help as an amateur mechanic for my neighbour, who raced motorcycles to a national level, tyres lasted exactly one race. likewise chains. Piston rings, one day, pistons, a weekend, cylinders several times in a year, clutches before each meeting. Plus anything that breaks, and of course, different internal gears and sprockets are used for each circuit, to give the best gearing, along with different pad compounds and disk diameters to suit circuit and conditions. Various other parts were replaced on a regular basis as well, but it's a long time ago now, so my list is not exhaustive. Tyres capable of performing in the wet would be shredded in a couple of laps if the circuit dried out. The grinding from mud, dust, grit and sand creates even greater wear on racing motocross bikes, and to increase performance, intake air is barely filtered, if at all. At the more extreme level (F1, Indy, NASCAR for cars, IoM-TT for bikes), tyres are changed several times DURING the race, and the cars or bikes are essentially new for each meeting, with ALL parts that can possibly wear being replaced, and often other parts swapped for ones more suitable for the different circuit! The most extreme example I can think of off-hand is Formula E, where the entire car is changed half-way through each race, when the battery goes flat - so all the other allowed wear components are designed to last only half a race! That is a fairer comparison for a machine which you ride to it's limits, not your false one of a softly tuned road vehicle, designed to reach it's warranty period even if driven to the limits the road will allow, if properly serviced and normal wear items replaced on schedule. On that continuum, I wonder where Joerg falls. It sometimes sounds like he's taking a Ford Taurus on the Baja 1000 -- a Taurus held together with hose clamps. -- Jay Beattie. If he does he will be back to tell us how Ford builds junk! -- Cheers, John B. |
#224
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 1/18/2017 10:35 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
Frank...every watch the antiquo video ? It's called bas-relief: http://ancientrome.ru/art/artwork/sc...nini/ca012.jpg -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#225
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 2017-01-18 13:37, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 7:36:08 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-17 11:36, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:56:13 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 9:47:32 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-17 08:21, jbeattie wrote: [...] What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last year's bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are reliable. I reliably change the chain when the wear indicator indicates and change the tires when they are worn out. I fix a flat now and then and do other routine maintenance. It's not like some monumental inconvenience, and if flats were epidemic, then I would switch to a hard-case tire. I would not agonize over the fact that the 20lb tire on my Subaru goes flat less often. My point is that when I say I am going to be there for an important meeting at 11:30am I don't want to leave half an hour earlier just in case I get a flat. And good luck getting that Gatorksin tire back onto one of my rims. If it takes you half an hour to fix a flat, you have other problems that need to be addressed. Yeah, I could get new rims and/or different tires. That is why finding a suitable tire isn't easy. You are welcome to come over and try getting a Gatorskin onto my rims. Dude, I was mounting first generation Turbos on E2s rims using my bare thumbs, but when I could no longer stand the pain, I got a VAR tool and packed that. http://tinyurl.com/j9ul39s I've got various sets of really good tire levers. They are of no use when wrestling the bead over the rim. Try Gatorskins on a flat Mavic Argent rim. I am by far not the only one and people have used all sorts of tricks. Problem is, there are no trick, just raw force. Sounds like you haven't tried motionpros https://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle...FRKRfgodycsNdw I've got good steel tire irons as well. Lots of tire irons in the garage, and none of the cheap stuff. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#226
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 2017-01-18 15:22, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Wed, 18 Jan 2017 07:36:11 -0800 the perfect time to write: On 2017-01-17 11:36, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:56:13 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 9:47:32 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-17 08:21, jbeattie wrote: [...] What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last year's bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are reliable. I reliably change the chain when the wear indicator indicates and change the tires when they are worn out. I fix a flat now and then and do other routine maintenance. It's not like some monumental inconvenience, and if flats were epidemic, then I would switch to a hard-case tire. I would not agonize over the fact that the 20lb tire on my Subaru goes flat less often. My point is that when I say I am going to be there for an important meeting at 11:30am I don't want to leave half an hour earlier just in case I get a flat. And good luck getting that Gatorksin tire back onto one of my rims. If it takes you half an hour to fix a flat, you have other problems that need to be addressed. Yeah, I could get new rims and/or different tires. That is why finding a suitable tire isn't easy. You are welcome to come over and try getting a Gatorskin onto my rims. Dude, I was mounting first generation Turbos on E2s rims using my bare thumbs, but when I could no longer stand the pain, I got a VAR tool and packed that. http://tinyurl.com/j9ul39s I've got various sets of really good tire levers. They are of no use when wrestling the bead over the rim. Try Gatorskins on a flat Mavic Argent rim. I am by far not the only one and people have used all sorts of tricks. Problem is, there are no trick, just raw force. ... There are other options as well. http://tinyurl.com/j2otl8g Snaps off in seconds. And if you are riding such gnarly ****, how is it that you are still riding vintage rims? I would assume the brake surface is worn nearly through or the rim is bashed up enough to justify a new rim manufactured in the last decade with a deeper profile and a better fit for most tires. This is my 1982 road bike. I do not brake all that much so the rims are ok. I also have two MTB where changing out a tire is a matter of minutes and I could do it with one hand if I wanted to. The (upright) bike I have most experience of fixing flats on is a 1987 Raleigh Royal touring bike, with original rims. The well in the rim isn't deep, but it exists. If you really do not have any well at all in your rims, then I would suggest that you keep up with the technology and not use 21st century tyres on a 35 year old rim, which may not adhere particularly well to the ISO standard (it would have been about the time 622 (700c) was replacing 27" as the standard, so might be a little bit off anyway). Fitting new rims (which would probably be worthwhile anyway for rims that old) would solve your problems. MTB tyres are always easy, in my experience - I rarely need levers even to take them off, so it's not really a fair comparison. But why did _all_ tires in the 80's and 90's fit just fine and in minutes? I rode a lot more on that bike than today (because I didn't have an MTB) and went through lots of tires of various brands. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#227
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 2017-01-17 17:39, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:52:53 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/16/2017 7:30 PM, John B. wrote: On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:23:53 -0800, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Strange. My LBS is a chain of two large shops in Bangkok, and a large number of agents scattered all over the country, and is the largest bicycle business in Thailand. They sell predominantly road bikes and the sales manager tells me that a very large portion of the bikes that they sell are Carbon. In fact she said that it was much easier to sell a carbon bike than an aluminum bike. Do you live in some poor, improvised, area where people can't afford decent equipment :-? I wonder whether Andrew's business depends on broken mountain bikes and cheap walmart stuff? We don't depend on it. But we've outlived a great number of other shops in part because we are not snobs and are as helpful as patience permits with the usual crap. The owners of the usual crap are just as human as anyone else and respond well to a kind word. You have discovered the secret of success :-) Be a nice guy. Years ago I patronized a tiny little hardware shop because the old guy (been there for years) that ran it seemed to want to help the customer. I needed a 3 foot section of "heat tape" once to reach all the way to the end of my new water pipe and he ordered it from Boston. A $3.00 item. Eventually the old fellow either died or retired and his son took over and he was not only a surly brute but the "bottom line" became the critical factor. Sure he'd order something from Boston... if it was a $50 order. The shop closed in about a year. In Germany we had an old saying and that held true many times: The third generation ruins it. I'm thinking here of a particular customer. He bought a stereo system which included a 'free' bike. Two other shops gave him an earful and threw him out. Our employee adjusted the seat and bars, made the brakes functional and improved it from a death trap to a lousy bicycle in a few minutes' time. He became a regular customer for many years with new very nice bikes eventually. Quick frame repair during a party while wearing a hula skirt: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/hulaweld.jpg Priceless! :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#228
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 2017-01-18 12:11, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/18/2017 11:33 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-18 09:18, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 7:36:44 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-17 15:26, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote: analog, I will not explain tire mounting again. Retard at your own speed I have explained to you that these are _flat_ rims. Hard to understand? The Argent rim is just a Mod E2. Right? Mine are Mavic Module “3†Argent “Dâ€. Almost flat inside. http://equusbicycle.com/bike/mavic/images/11and12.jpg Pretty standard rim of the era. Get VAR lever. It lifts the bead over the rim. Your problems will be solved. Getting another tire or rim will also solve your problems. Most people will not wrestle with a tire for a half-an-hour, at least not more than once. I have broken many high quality levers on those and bike shop owners have confirmed that issue. When they say "Good luck getting them on" you know what you are up to. The thick tubes I have do not exactly help in keeping the bead towards the center but I made myself Delrin pieces to do that. The relief that this provides is very limited though, as evidenced by the fact that even with thin tubes Gatorskins are really hard to mount onto these rims. Fact is, the Vredestein tires always went on with ease and the Gatorskin tires do not. Huge difference. However, the Vredesteins had too many flats. So, I am looking for a tire that is very puncture-resistant, has sturdy side walls _and_ is easy to mount. Eventually I will find one and then buy a stack of them. Just like I did for the MTB where I found three brands that work well. That's a known deficient design with hardly any drop between the bead seats and the center well. Not only those Mavic, but Trek copied it for some all-time-lousy rims under their Bontrager brand. Very hard to mount/remove tires; Joerg is not making that up. The weird phenomenon is that in the olden days all tires fit fine. All of them. I put north of 50k miles on that bike just in the 80's and used up rear tires as if they were popcorn. All kinds of brands but mostly Vredestein. The beads went on with ease, in minutes. Now some tires seem to be subpar in bead diameter tolerance. For example, Gatorskins take over an hour to wrestle them on (with breaks because the thumbs hurt so much). Once they have been on there for a while it becomes easier to take them off and put them back on. How much easier depends on the time they've been on the rim, not how many times they were mounted or how many miles were ridden. That seems to indicate that the beads stretch while on there. Sometimes things really were better in the good old days. I realized that again just now when re-working a wine fridge. The design and the workmanship was, in part, rather messed up. That somehow rarely happened in the 50's (we have a Bosch fridge from 1956, still running great). -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#230
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 2017-01-18 13:53, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:31:41 -0800 the perfect time to write: On 2017-01-04 20:32, Phil Lee wrote: Joerg considered Wed, 04 Jan 2017 [...] I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement is toast only a few months after opening. It also has to become a pliable connection because those cuts are on the side walls. Ever since moving to tire liners plus thich tubes plus thick tire surfaces I don't get "regular" flats via running surface punctures anymore. A useful tip for storing cans or bottles of such materials (including paints, as well) is to store them upside down. Good point. At least I always make sure to turn them upside down for a little and then right them again. That way any possible break in te seal will (hopefully) remain "gunked". That way, any slight imperfection in the seal around the lid will fill with the glue, paint, or whatever, and dry to form a perfect seal, which will preserve the contents. Except that continued upside-down storage without a catch basin can result in a nasty surprise when coming back from a vacation. It never has for me, even after years of storage. I used to think that about my brewing as well, that I never had a fermenter blow-off. Everything literally went textbook style. Then, shortly before New Year's, an evil hiss ... and ... [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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