Dropout spacing

On Saturday, January 5, 2013 7:08:24 PM UTC-5, datakoll wrote:
well a short postee before Clems and I run off in the Flamina to the Count's place for waxed duck. great fun, no ?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vide...-rooftop-video

ooops wrong dinner party. that's the pone with the rash


tonight !

https://www.google.com/search?num=10....WNEJ_ 5TnY2g

On Saturday, January 5, 2013 7:18:19 PM UTC-5, datakoll wrote:
On Saturday, January 5, 2013 7:08:24 PM UTC-5, datakoll wrote:

well a short postee before Clems and I run off in the Flamina to the Count's place for waxed duck. great fun, no ?







http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vide...-rooftop-video



ooops wrong dinner party. that's the pone with the rash





tonight !



https://www.google.com/search?num=10....WNEJ _5TnY2g

MERDE weze not talin the Lancia woahn start its the Delage for Duck

http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&...,r:6,s:0,i:109

On Jan 5, 1:56*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

Why on earth would you get a canti-equipped bike when you can get
discs? Or why 4130 boat anchor when you can get a good aluminum frame
with a lifetime warranty? *And why would you get a knock-off of an old
TA crank -- or Stronglight, for that matter? *I don't get the whole
"historical reenactment" thing. Having owned all that stuff when it
was cutting edge, I have no need to own it again.

:-) Funny, I'm inclined to turn those questions around - for example,
why bother with discs when rim brakes work so well?

OK, granted, if you do enough riding on surfaces covered with mud, wet
grime or other grinding paste, disc brakes will save your rims, and
they are more powerful. But IIRC, you have mentioned replacing disc
pads every couple months. That sounds inconvenient. I've talked to
guys who were really frustrated by having bent a disc. And there's
the issue of incompatible pads - will the disc brake I buy still have
pads available in ten years, or does it become landfill fodder?

Still, I have no need for super-powerful braking or for discs' other
supposed advantages. I do perfectly well with the rim brakes I have.
I also didn't care for the constant light scraping sounds on the
couple of disc brake bikes I tried. Maybe there are ways to fix that,
but I'd rather not try.

Regarding frames, well, there are choices available in steel that are
difficult or impossible to find in aluminum, due at least partly to
the fact that it's easier to set up shop to build high quality steel
frames.

Cranks? I don't know, I'm not a connoisseur. But I like triple
cranks with the ability for 24 teeth in front, even though I that ring
only when touring. Some people like smaller Q factors than are
usually available. And unlike some, I don't recall ever having a
problem with the classic square taper, although I realize there are
newer, better designs (as well as newer, worse designs).

I do like to keep my 31 year old motorcycle mostly "period correct,"
but with me and bikes, it's not "historic reenactment." It's more that
my cranks, my frames and my brakes keep working for me. Not much
reason to change, nor to experiment with every new gee-whiz technology
that provides yet another 1% improvement.

- Frank Krygowski

On Jan 5, 3:01 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:


It is very simple Jay. The people just want be part of a subculture just
like we want to be part of the lyncra/ racing group. We are all marketing
victims, even Frank.

One thing I've thought about is this: A person makes his own
universe, to a certain degree.

One's universe comes partly from the choices he or she makes. The
person who drinks in bars until 2 AM most nights experiences a very
different life from the one who goes sleep at 10 AM and wakes to go to
church. A person who never misses a crime show on TV sees life
differently than one who spends evenings reading Emily Dickinson.

Similarly, I think a person's bicycling life is influenced by the type
of bike he chooses to ride. Certainly, when I get on a bike with
upright bars instead of drop bars, I tend to gaze around more at the
sights, gear down more instead of push, and generally relax and take
things slower.

But it's not just handlebars. I think more and more closely-spaced
gears naturally lead to more frequent shifting to find and take
advantage of Just The Right Gear. I think a 17 pound bike naturally
leads to more sprinting, just to feel the difference between it and a
22 pound bike, and confirm that the purchase price was worth it. I
think 32mm tires lead a person seek out more remote, even gravel,
roads, and I think fenders promote riding even if it might get wet.
You make your choices, and you build your universe.

Besides, there's probably value in having a bike that telegraphs your
riding preferences to others, just as there's value in having your
clothing match your personality. The right bike, like the right
clothing style for a night on the town, may help to attract the people
you'd prefer to get along with - the subculture that Lou mentioned.
It's not a bad thing.

- Frank Krygowski

On Jan 5, 6:56*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jan 5, 10:01*am, Andre Jute wrote:









On Jan 5, 5:57*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

On Jan 5, 4:22*am, Dan O wrote:

On Jan 4, 6:47 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Jan 4, 11:51 am, AMuzi wrote:

On 1/4/2013 6:42 AM, datakoll wrote:

if you 'overbilled' every customer $5 over 40 years and placed the $$ into a top mutual fund....

There's that damnable static analysis effect again (rampant
nowadays among those who ought to know better).

If you're +$5 over market on average you won't last 40
years. Or even one, probably.

... unless, perhaps, you have a flair for good writing, especially
good ad copy!

Seehttps://www.rivbike.com/forexample.

Curious what "good writing" looks like, I clicked the first item on
that page to read the "ad copy":

"You will really, really like this top."

Hmmmm...

Maybe this was it:

"If you can't wear this (due to scratchiness), you basically can't
wear any wool ever, forever. It's just a fact. This shirt is so soft
that, seriously, if it's too irritating to you, then somehow---between
birth and now---you've devolved way past the point of functionality in
the world, and it's time to toughen up a bit."

... and I thought *my* writing was really, really pretentious.

OTOH, they have prominent link labeled, "LEARN" ;-)

In the article topping "the 5 'most helpful' is writ: *"How do I
choose the color?"

It seems, though, that this dealer fills an emotional need for his
customers, so maybe he won't be dragged down by the stone after all..

It's no accident that most prizes in advertising are given for "image"
advertising, because it is generally impossible to measure its
effectiveness, and by its nature it lends itself to vague waffle.

But I like Mr Peterson's ads. His gear at least isn't that
uncomfortable, smelly roadie plastic, and there's a certain old-
fashioned charm to his entire little family business. Also, he's a
first class bicycle designer. I'd have one of his bikes if a) he made
it with forks for 60mm tyres and b) carriage from the States to Europe
weren't such a killer (and import duties and local sales taxes of
nearly a fifth on top of that).

You and Frank are both right. Grant writes good copy. And he fills a
need, not only with his bikes but with the community he had created
with them, for people who have perhaps an idealized idea someone long
ago, far away once living a different lifestyle. (I know some of the
same sort of people from automobiles. I've owned the cars they dream
about, and in some cases thought they were crap -- Ferrari, Mercedes
"sports" cars, 300SL gulling, every single British sportscar including
the lethal E-type -- but even the good ones -- Jensen Interceptor,
Citroen SM, Mercedes 600 SEL, Porsche, Maserati, Lancia, Alfa -- were
not what they think they were. But I, and others, don't disillusion
them. Let them dream. Rivendale provides a living for a few people out
of that dream. That good, to my way of thinking.

Andre Jute

Hmm. How much people want what Grant P sells, and I don't just mean
the goodies, I mean the dream, is demonstrated by the fact that a
copycat, Orange Velo, has shot up, flourished, and survives.

Why on earth would you get a canti-equipped bike when you can get
discs? Or why 4130 boat anchor when you can get a good aluminum frame
with a lifetime warranty? *And why would you get a knock-off of an old
TA crank -- or Stronglight, for that matter? *I don't get the whole
"historical reenactment" thing. Having owned all that stuff when it
was cutting edge, I have no need to own it again.

-- Jay Beattie.

I find the olde stuffe aesthetically pleasing.

On Jan 5, 4:35*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 5, 1:56*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:



Why on earth would you get a canti-equipped bike when you can get
discs? Or why 4130 boat anchor when you can get a good aluminum frame
with a lifetime warranty? *And why would you get a knock-off of an old
TA crank -- or Stronglight, for that matter? *I don't get the whole
"historical reenactment" thing. Having owned all that stuff when it
was cutting edge, I have no need to own it again.

:-) *Funny, I'm inclined to turn those questions around - for example,
why bother with discs when rim brakes work so well?

OK, granted, if you do enough riding on surfaces covered with mud, wet
grime or other grinding paste, disc brakes will save your rims, and
they are more powerful. *But IIRC, you have mentioned replacing disc
pads every couple months. That sounds inconvenient. *I've talked to
guys who were really frustrated by having bent a disc. *And there's
the issue of incompatible pads - will the disc brake I buy still have
pads available in ten years, or does it become landfill fodder?

Still, I have no need for super-powerful braking or for discs' other
supposed advantages. I do perfectly well with the rim brakes I have.
I also didn't care for the constant light scraping sounds on the
couple of disc brake bikes I tried. *Maybe there are ways to fix that,
but I'd rather not try.

I grind down rims riding with rim brakes in the PNW, and I could not
get cantis to work well with STI --my preferred shifting system
(apologies to friction buffs). Discs are superior by every measure
for my commuting needs and wet weather riding. Pad life may be
shorter, but stopping is better and rim life is not affected by
braking. And pad life is not that much shorter -- assuming my brakes
are not dragging -- and they don't have to drag (light scraping sound
is not required). If I were building a forward looking neo retro frame
capable of accommodating big tires, I would build it with disc tabs.
E.g. http://salsacycles.com/bikes/vaya

Really, there are still a ton of bikes that can take fat tires and
that are forward-looking.


Regarding frames, well, there are choices available in steel that are
difficult or impossible to find in aluminum, due at least partly to
the fact that it's easier to set up shop to build high quality steel
frames.

You can get any reputable manufacturer to build whatever you want out
of aluminum. I'm sure the same Taiwanese factor that churns out the
Velo Orange steel frames could build the same bike out of aluminum.
The down side would be that it would be lighter and just as stiff and
probably more stiff through the BB. And contrary to what Andre was
saying, by current aluminum racing frame is more comfortable than my
old SP racing frame. The days of the boneshaker straight gauge
aluminum frame are over. I'm not tied to aluminum, but at my large
frame size, it is just a better choice. Ride a small frame, and you
can use whatever material you want without any substantial penalty.


Cranks? *I don't know, I'm not a connoisseur. *But I like triple
cranks with the ability for 24 teeth in front, even though I that ring
only when touring. *Some people like smaller Q factors than are
usually available. *And unlike some, I don't recall ever having a
problem with the classic square taper, although I realize there are
newer, better designs (as well as newer, worse designs).

I've broken at least seven cranks, including a Stronglight like the
Velo Orange repro. I didn't like the TA cranks because they felt
whippy. I broke Campy NR cranks -- three or four of them. I'm not
tied in to square versus two-piece, etc. (although Isis was an
abomination). I just didn't care for cranks that broke or felt like
pasta.


I do like to keep my 31 year old motorcycle mostly "period correct,"
but with me and bikes, it's not "historic reenactment." It's more that
my cranks, my frames and my brakes keep working for me. *Not much
reason to change, nor to experiment with every new gee-whiz technology
that provides yet another 1% improvement.

I agree -- get as much life as possible out of the old stuff, but I'm
not going to buy repro old stuff, and I'm certainly not going to buy a
repro of a component that sucked the first time around, nor I am going
to buy some steam punk cotton duck saddle bag. However, I would buy a
repro Turbo or Unicanitor padded (or maybe Ideal 2002) saddle. I'm
still riding on a Unicanitor saddle from the '70s. But Rivendell and
Velo Orange will never reproduce those saddles because they were not
Brooks-like leather saddles and didn't look like something from pre-WW
II. I might even consider the VO Mod E/MA2 knock-off
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.p...-rim-700c.html
Except that it is ridiculously expensive. I could buy almost three
Alex 450s for the same price. A DT 450 -- which I think is a really
solid rim -- is only $49 from Universal here in PDX.

The VO frames with forks are pretty cheap -- but then you get a 4130
frame with cantis and 1" threaded steerer. No thanks. If I go steel,
it will be something like that Salsa frame linked above or maybe a
Soma road frame -- something that is not so retro.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Jan 6, 12:08*am, datakoll wrote:
well a short postee before Clems and I run off in the Flamina to the Count's place for waxed duck. great fun, no ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vide...-fins-hong-kon...

If you're referring to a Lancia, I think you mean Flaminia.

Andre Jute

In article
,
Jay Beattie wrote:

snip...

Andre Jute

Hmm. How much people want what Grant P sells, and I don't just mean
the goodies, I mean the dream, is demonstrated by the fact that a
copycat, Orange Velo, has shot up, flourished, and survives.

Why on earth would you get a canti-equipped bike when you can get
discs? Or why 4130 boat anchor when you can get a good aluminum frame
with a lifetime warranty? And why would you get a knock-off of an old
TA crank -- or Stronglight, for that matter? I don't get the whole
"historical reenactment" thing. Having owned all that stuff when it
was cutting edge, I have no need to own it again.

-- Jay Beattie.

I was in a local bike store owned by someone who also builds frames
(see http://www.fahrradbaustolz.ch/, but it's all in German). He
described how he was building a frame for a customer who wanted to
recreate a bike out of the 1970's. The customer had a very detailed
vision of what the bike should be, and he, the framebuilder, had already
invested over 100 hours in this project. That came to 12,000 Swiss
Francs (ca. US$13,000) just for the frame! Apparently nostalgia knows no
bounds if you have enough money to indulge.

Ned
(Still doing fine with my plain old 2003 model MTB:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nedm/5980972573/ )

On Jan 5, 9:13*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

I grind down rims riding with rim brakes in the PNW, and I could not
get cantis to work well with STI --my preferred shifting system
(apologies to friction buffs).

Ah yes, the STI road to perdition. ;-) STI is a gateway drug, you
know!

Discs are superior by every measure
for my commuting needs and wet weather riding.

I agree, the riding you've described makes discs more desirable,
compared to the riding most of us do, in (somewhat) drier and flatter
territory.

Pad life may be
shorter, but stopping is better and rim life is not affected by
braking. And pad life is not that much shorter -- assuming my brakes
are not dragging -- and they don't have to drag (light scraping sound
is not required).

The short pad life you described did shock me a bit. And I continue
to wonder about long term pad availability. (I wonder if pads are
still available for all discs, including early and unpopular ones.)

Regarding the scraping sounds, I experienced that on borrowed bikes,
so I didn't investigate. But the one guy was passing through on a
tour - I was fixing his broken rear rack for him - and he apparently
put up with the noise the entire way. :-/ It would have driven me
crazy.

You can get any reputable manufacturer to build whatever you want out
of aluminum.

?? If by "you" you mean me, I really doubt it! I can, however, talk
to a custom frame builder about building a steel frame. Or probably
even do it myself. I've got a full-sized acetylene set, plus a good
friend one mile away who used to build custom frames. He still has
the various reamers, taps, dies etc., and is a great teacher.

... I agree -- get as much life as possible out of the old stuff, but I'm
not going to buy repro old stuff...

I think some of the parts sold by places like Rivendell, Velo Orange
and Compass go to people who don't like certain limitations imposed by
modern specialized equipment. Whether anyone here agrees with the
choice or not, there really are people who have their own practical
preferences for friction shifting, non-clipless pedals, more clearance
in brakes and frames, etc. Yes, there are a few equivalent choices in
more popular components, but for some people, it's simpler to go to a
merchant who specializes in that sort of equipment, who knows it and
has it in stock.

(But let me make clear, I'm actually not a guy who buys from them.
Except I bought reading material from Rivendell, and got a little
clothing as a gift. I mostly buy from my favorite local shop. Or...)

...and I'm certainly not going to buy a
repro of a component that sucked the first time around, nor I am going
to buy some steam punk cotton duck saddle bag.

:-) I mostly buy from my favorite local shop, or from one of yours!
I actually did by my "steam punk cotton duck saddle bag" from
CityBikes in Portland. I was on a travel vacation, driving and
camping in places like Banff NP, Glacier NP, Olympic NP and visiting
in Portland. Our Bikes Friday were new, and I was having trouble
lugging things like groceries in the smallish handlebar bag I'd
fitted. I realized a big saddlebag would work really well, and it
has.

Once I returned home with the bag, I'd grown to like it well enough
that I fabricated a quick release scheme, so I could move it from the
Friday to my Cannondale touring bike in about 30 seconds. It's been
handy there, too.

Admittedly, I did one ride with a couple of guys on racing bikes (one
one a Cervelo) and they didn't understand. At a certain point, one
asked "Why do you have all that _stuff_ on your bike???" I guess he
didn't see the value in being able to carry a six pack of assorted
exotic imported beers...

- Frank Krygowski

On Jan 5, 5:06 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 5, 3:01 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:



It is very simple Jay. The people just want be part of a subculture just
like we want to be part of the lyncra/ racing group. We are all marketing
victims, even Frank.

One thing I've thought about is this: A person makes his own
universe, to a certain degree.


Absolutely true. (To what degree must remain an open question to
persons creating the perspective from which they ask it.)

One's universe comes partly from the choices he or she makes.

More so vice versa, I think; but yeah it feeds on itself, and the
reality we create for ourselves is largely not done so by *conscious*
choice.

The
person who drinks in bars until 2 AM most nights...

"Making your way in the world today takes everything you've got.
Taking a break from all your worries, sure would help a lot.
Wouldn't you like to get away?"

... experiences a very
different life from the one who goes sleep at 10 AM and wakes to go to
church.

(I suspect you meant 10 PM, as that would be a ~conventionally
virtuous bedtime. But there's rarely need for pedantry - I knew what
you meant.)

A person who never misses a crime show on TV sees life
differently than one who spends evenings reading Emily Dickinson.


I think these examples are more symptom than cause, and beneath the
surface, the respective characters I imagine you're imagining might be
switched completely around. Judge not.

Similarly, I think a person's bicycling life is influenced by the type
of bike he chooses to ride. Certainly, when I get on a bike with
upright bars instead of drop bars, I tend to gaze around more at the
sights, gear down more instead of push, and generally relax and take
things slower.


That's your universe.

I believe we all share commonalities, but each have our own baggage.

But it's not just handlebars. I think more and more closely-spaced
gears naturally lead to more frequent shifting to find and take
advantage of Just The Right Gear.

Ah, to find what's "Right"...

I might take issue with your assumption that this rider is trying to
"find" the right gear; if your cluster has two-tooth increments and
The Right Gear simply isn't there...

OTOH, for the person who understands there is no perfection, but only
degrees of deviation from it, more closely spaced gears may naturally
lead to more satisfaction and *less* "seeking":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seeker_(song)

I think a 17 pound bike naturally
leads to more sprinting, just to feel the difference between it and a
22 pound bike, and confirm that the purchase price was worth it.

Incorrigibly smarmy with the insidious, presumptuous, judgmental digs
- through and through to the bitter end.

I
think 32mm tires lead a person seek out more remote, even gravel,
roads, and I think fenders promote riding even if it might get wet.

Not nearly as much as having the gumption to just do it, as opposed
to:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...4d4c72e5623e53

You make your choices, and you build your universe.


.... at the risk of being dragged down by the stone.

I must say this is extremely encouraging to see you embracing the idea
that perspectives and contexts are so variable, and *almost* seeming
not to too overtly and egregiously discount their validity. I
suppose, though, that you still hold to the notion that there is one
true, "proper" way (set by god and held by Frank).

Besides, there's probably value in having a bike that telegraphs your
riding preferences to others, just as there's value in having your
clothing match your personality.

How much to assume based merely on the book's superficial cover? Or,
a more apt metaphor, the interchangeable dustjacket.

The right bike, like the right
clothing style for a night on the town, may help to attract the people
you'd prefer to get along with - the subculture that Lou mentioned.
It's not a bad thing.


"You want to go where people know,
People are all the same;
You want to go where everybody knows your name."