Thinking about having a SON,

On 03/31/2010 06:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Mar 31, 9:21 pm, Peter wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Here are 256 dynamo wheels, most of them cheaper, many of them better,
including the latest Alfines for attractive prices.

http://shop.ebay.de/i.html?_nkw=lauf..._trkparms=65%2...

Looking at Ebay.de and various UK sites, I'm surprised not to see any
inexpensive LED front lamps.

You're looking at the by-effects of the nanny-state which is the
European Union. In this particular instance the German cycling light
component regulation group Straßenverkehrs-Zulassungs-Ordnung ss67
shorthanded as StVZO has become a de facto regulatory standard for any
manufacturer who wants to sell bicycle manufacturers, who must by law
fit lights to all bikes except the very lightweight racers. It is very
expensive to have this testing done and to get this certification (as
for other bicycle components subject to other regulations), so you
won't see any cheap lights from European manufacturers. Also, since
the really big market is OEM, which also means that most new bikes
already have lights, it is expensive to service the small aftermarket,
and prices reflect this.

The net effect of all this regulation in Europe is to push bike prices
to where the poor cannot afford bikes. Of course, the permitted,
tested-to-death components are all superb but some do question whether
they need to be quite that outstandingly good. And, equally, when in
time the standard, by being enforced on all new bikes, becomes cheaper
through pure numbers bringing unit cost down, there will be a longterm
quality advantage for everyone, even the less expensive bikes. We have
already seen the breakthrough in lights with first the IQ Fly and now
the Cyo.

But these regulations in effect prevent bikes ever being cheap again
in Europe.

It seems the halogens are rated in the
10-20 lux range where the LEDs are 40 lux or so. I can't see purchasing
a halogen bike light any more than I can see a halogen flashlight. The
market seems to be flush with 10 year old technology.

Below the level of the serious European manufacturers (some of which
are in fact Taiwanese -- Giant, one of the big three in The
Netherlands, is in fact Taiwanese, and so is Jos, owners of Spanninga,
a big player in accessories), there are all these Chinese to whom even
a piece of the leftover and replacement market seems worth exploiting.
But their **** often doesn't last, and is anyway illegal in Germany
and possibly in The Netherlands too (the two biggest markets).

You want the quality, you have to pay for it. It is the law.


I suspect that the effect you cite is real, but temporary. No reason
that a StVZO approved light can't remain on the market for decades,
thereby amortizing the tooling, development costs, etc. I mean, Cibie
and Hella have been pumping out ECE compliant 7" round headlights for
decades, and while they're not as cheap as a sealed beam from your parts
store, they're really not that expensive in the grand scheme of things;
and H4 bulbs are pretty much a commodity.

Personally, I like the Germanic insistence on functionality. I wish
that ECE-compliant headlamps for cars were required over here, because
there's really some ****-poor designs (to the point of being dangerous)
that are perfectly legal to sell. (and yes, I have ECE headlights on my
car and an IQ Cyo on my bike, so I do practice what I preach...
Although I do have to say that I like having an additional light with me
if I'm riding on a completely unlit trail, and while I'd certainly love
to have a proper secondary headlight for a dynohub, instead I just strap
on the trusty Task Force flashlight. Because, yes, I can't justify the
cost, and the flashlight is handy to have around, both on the bike and off.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Apr 1, 2:33*am, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 03/31/2010 06:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:





On Mar 31, 9:21 pm, Peter *wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Here are 256 dynamo wheels, most of them cheaper, many of them better,
including the latest Alfines for attractive prices.

http://shop.ebay.de/i.html?_nkw=lauf..._trkparms=65%2...

Looking at Ebay.de and various UK sites, I'm surprised not to see any
inexpensive LED front lamps.

You're looking at the by-effects of the nanny-state which is the
European Union. In this particular instance the German cycling light
component regulation group Stra enverkehrs-Zulassungs-Ordnung ss67
shorthanded as StVZO has become a de facto regulatory standard for any
manufacturer who wants to sell bicycle manufacturers, who must by law
fit lights to all bikes except the very lightweight racers. It is very
expensive to have this testing done and to get this certification (as
for other bicycle components subject to other regulations), so you
won't see any cheap lights from European manufacturers. Also, since
the really big market is OEM, which also means that most new bikes
already have lights, it is expensive to service the small aftermarket,
and prices reflect this.

The net effect of all this regulation in Europe is to push bike prices
to where the poor cannot afford bikes. Of course, the permitted,
tested-to-death components are all superb but some do question whether
they need to be quite that outstandingly good. And, equally, when in
time the standard, by being enforced on all new bikes, becomes cheaper
through pure numbers bringing unit cost down, there will be a longterm
quality advantage for everyone, even the less expensive bikes. We have
already seen the breakthrough in lights with first the IQ Fly and now
the Cyo.

But these regulations in effect prevent bikes ever being cheap again
in Europe.

It seems the halogens are rated in the
10-20 lux range where the LEDs are 40 lux or so. I can't see purchasing
a halogen bike light any more than I can see a halogen flashlight. The
market seems to be flush with 10 year old technology.

Below the level of the serious European manufacturers (some of which
are in fact Taiwanese -- Giant, one of the big three in The
Netherlands, is in fact Taiwanese, and so is Jos, owners of Spanninga,
a big player in accessories), there are all these Chinese to whom even
a piece of the leftover and replacement market seems worth exploiting.
But their **** often doesn't last, and is anyway illegal in Germany
and possibly in The Netherlands too (the two biggest markets).

You want the quality, you have to pay for it. It is the law.

I suspect that the effect you cite is real, but temporary. *No reason
that a StVZO approved light can't remain on the market for decades,
thereby amortizing the tooling, development costs, etc. *I mean, Cibie
and Hella have been pumping out ECE compliant 7" round headlights for
decades, and while they're not as cheap as a sealed beam from your parts
store, they're really not that expensive in the grand scheme of things;

True, but they've taken decades to get there.

and H4 bulbs are pretty much a commodity.

I don't think the H4 followed legislation. It was first of all a
rallying success, then the legislators made the good available good
lights compulsory. I could be wrong, because I was in South America
when all this happened.

Personally, I like the Germanic insistence on functionality. *I wish
that ECE-compliant headlamps for cars were required over here, because
there's really some ****-poor designs (to the point of being dangerous)

I agree, American headlights are either just of lethal or lethal, take
your pick.

that are perfectly legal to sell. *(and yes, I have ECE headlights on my
car

That's illegal in several states. A guy called Stein (I think) sells
Euro-headlights in the States and he had a list on his netsite of the
states in which you could get away with fitting them.

and an IQ Cyo on my bike, so I do practice what I preach...
Although I do have to say that I like having an additional light with me
if I'm riding on a completely unlit trail, and while I'd certainly love
to have a proper secondary headlight for a dynohub, instead I just strap
on the trusty Task Force flashlight. *Because, yes, I can't justify the
cost, and the flashlight is handy to have around, both on the bike and off.)

Considering how many old guys have influence on this newsgroup, I
wouldn't be too loud about riding fast enough to keep a second Cyo lit
g.

Andre Jute
"The first American car was sold to an American on April Fool's Day,
1898." -- Ralph Stein in "Vintage and Classic Cars", Bantam Books,
1977

On Mar 31, 11:25*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 1, 2:33*am, Nate Nagel wrote:





On 03/31/2010 06:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:

On Mar 31, 9:21 pm, Peter *wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Here are 256 dynamo wheels, most of them cheaper, many of them better,
including the latest Alfines for attractive prices.

http://shop.ebay.de/i.html?_nkw=lauf..._trkparms=65%2...

Looking at Ebay.de and various UK sites, I'm surprised not to see any
inexpensive LED front lamps.

You're looking at the by-effects of the nanny-state which is the
European Union. In this particular instance the German cycling light
component regulation group Stra enverkehrs-Zulassungs-Ordnung ss67
shorthanded as StVZO has become a de facto regulatory standard for any
manufacturer who wants to sell bicycle manufacturers, who must by law
fit lights to all bikes except the very lightweight racers. It is very
expensive to have this testing done and to get this certification (as
for other bicycle components subject to other regulations), so you
won't see any cheap lights from European manufacturers. Also, since
the really big market is OEM, which also means that most new bikes
already have lights, it is expensive to service the small aftermarket,
and prices reflect this.

The net effect of all this regulation in Europe is to push bike prices
to where the poor cannot afford bikes. Of course, the permitted,
tested-to-death components are all superb but some do question whether
they need to be quite that outstandingly good. And, equally, when in
time the standard, by being enforced on all new bikes, becomes cheaper
through pure numbers bringing unit cost down, there will be a longterm
quality advantage for everyone, even the less expensive bikes. We have
already seen the breakthrough in lights with first the IQ Fly and now
the Cyo.

But these regulations in effect prevent bikes ever being cheap again
in Europe.

It seems the halogens are rated in the
10-20 lux range where the LEDs are 40 lux or so. I can't see purchasing
a halogen bike light any more than I can see a halogen flashlight. The
market seems to be flush with 10 year old technology.

Below the level of the serious European manufacturers (some of which
are in fact Taiwanese -- Giant, one of the big three in The
Netherlands, is in fact Taiwanese, and so is Jos, owners of Spanninga,
a big player in accessories), there are all these Chinese to whom even
a piece of the leftover and replacement market seems worth exploiting..
But their **** often doesn't last, and is anyway illegal in Germany
and possibly in The Netherlands too (the two biggest markets).

You want the quality, you have to pay for it. It is the law.

I suspect that the effect you cite is real, but temporary. *No reason
that a StVZO approved light can't remain on the market for decades,
thereby amortizing the tooling, development costs, etc. *I mean, Cibie
and Hella have been pumping out ECE compliant 7" round headlights for
decades, and while they're not as cheap as a sealed beam from your parts
store, they're really not that expensive in the grand scheme of things;

True, but they've taken decades to get there.

and H4 bulbs are pretty much a commodity.

I don't think the H4 followed legislation. It was first of all a
rallying success, then the legislators made the good available good
lights compulsory. I could be wrong, because I was in South America
when all this happened.

Personally, I like the Germanic insistence on functionality. *I wish
that ECE-compliant headlamps for cars were required over here, because
there's really some ****-poor designs (to the point of being dangerous)

I agree, American headlights are either just of lethal or lethal, take
your pick.

that are perfectly legal to sell. *(and yes, I have ECE headlights on my
car

That's illegal in several states. A guy called Stein (I think) sells
Euro-headlights in the States and *he had a list on his netsite of the
states in which you could get away with fitting them.

You mean Daniel Stern? I've bought shockingly little stuff from him
despite all the good advice I've got from him over the years... and
yes, it's a grey area in the US, but there are several states where
ECE lights are explicitly allowed, and the only time I've had trouble
getting them through inspection was in Maryland. The rub is that
mfgrs. are not allowed to fit at the factory lights with only ECE
approval marks and not DOT, and that DOT standards are much more lax.


and an IQ Cyo on my bike, so I do practice what I preach...
Although I do have to say that I like having an additional light with me
if I'm riding on a completely unlit trail, and while I'd certainly love
to have a proper secondary headlight for a dynohub, instead I just strap
on the trusty Task Force flashlight. *Because, yes, I can't justify the
cost, and the flashlight is handy to have around, both on the bike and off.)

Considering how many old guys have influence on this newsgroup, I
wouldn't be too loud about riding fast enough to keep a second Cyo lit

Hah. With my Shimano/Cyo combination, pushing the bike up my driveway
at a normal walking pace will take it off the standlight, so I don't
think it would be a problem. And my desire to have another one is
more due to just enjoying good lighting rather than any great physical
prowess...

nate