Buying a bottom bracket and crankset for an older bike online?

On 1/23/2015 10:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 15:29:20 +0000, jbeattie said:

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:35:59 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 01:50:31 +0000, James said:

On 23/01/15 11:31, jbeattie wrote:


More at:
http://newsite.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/external-bearing-crank-systems-hollowtech-ii-megaexo-giga-x-pipe-x-type-campagnolo-ultra-torque
It's a very simple system -- also lightweight and stiff,
if that
matters to you. The negatives include expensive chain ring
replacement and shorter bearing life, but outboard BBs are so cheap
and easy to replace, that shorter bearing life is no big deal.

I used to routinely ruin a Shimano or Campy cartridge BB per
season, and I broke a Shimano cartridge BB axle (mid race). The
old type with a set of balls in a cage and adjustable cups in the
frame always either got loose or got crunchy to fast for my liking.

On expensive chain ring replacement and shorter bearing life, I can
buy Stronglight chain rings for my Campy UT cranks, that are not
excessively expensive like the genuine article, and as for bearing
life - well the bearings have lived for far longer than any other
BB bearing assy I've ever tried and without needing adjustment.

If they are negatives, I'm lost.

Shimano design has a loose fitting of the bearing on the axle. That
is not a correct design but they do it because of simplicity and
cost. The result of it is that if the bearing slips relative to the
axle the axle wears and you whole crankset is shot. I saw this
happen more than once. You have to check it from time to time. It is
easy and new bearings as Jay told us are cheap. Campy cut the axle
in half, at least at the higher end stuff(Chorus, Record and Super
Record), and press fit the bearings on the axle. That is the corect
design but more complicated and expensive.

I have yet to experience the bearing/axle wear problem, but then
again, I broke the only two-piece crank in the stable that was
approaching old age. Apart from checking for this problem, is there
any way to prevent or mitigate it (apart from not buying Shimano or
similar designs)?

-- Jay Beattie.

It happens only when the bearing develops a lot of drag. It is unlikely
that this will happen on a road bike. All the incidents I know happened
on a ATB with guys who never do any maintenance on a bike. I remove the
crank after every off road season and check if the bearing is still
running smoothly. Clean as good as it can and try to squeeze in some
grease. If there is any doubt I replace the bearing. They are cheap.

Seems to me you praise very low maintenance strategies regarding some
components, but very tedious maintenance strategies with others. No?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/23/2015 10:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 15:29:20 +0000, jbeattie said:

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:35:59 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 01:50:31 +0000, James said:

On 23/01/15 11:31, jbeattie wrote:


More at:
http://newsite.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/external-bearing-crank-systems-hollowtech-ii-megaexo-giga-x-pipe-x-type-campagnolo-ultra-torque
It's a very simple system -- also lightweight and stiff,
if that
matters to you. The negatives include expensive chain ring
replacement and shorter bearing life, but outboard BBs are so cheap
and easy to replace, that shorter bearing life is no big deal.

I used to routinely ruin a Shimano or Campy cartridge BB per
season, and I broke a Shimano cartridge BB axle (mid race). The
old type with a set of balls in a cage and adjustable cups in the
frame always either got loose or got crunchy to fast for my liking.

On expensive chain ring replacement and shorter bearing life, I can
Stronglight chain rings for my Campy UT cranks, that are not
excessively expensive like the genuine article, and as for bearing
life - well the bearings have lived for far longer than any other
BB bearing assy I've ever tried and without needing adjustment.

If they are negatives, I'm lost.

Shimano design has a loose fitting of the bearing on the axle. That
not a correct design but they do it because of simplicity and
cost. The result of it is that if the bearing slips relative to the
axle the axle wears and you whole crankset is shot. I saw this
happen more than once. You have to check it from time to time. It is
easy and new bearings as Jay told us are cheap. Campy cut the axle
in half, at least at the higher end stuff(Chorus, Record and Super
Record), and press fit the bearings on the axle. That is the corect
design but more complicated and expensive.

I have yet to experience the bearing/axle wear problem, but then
again, I broke the only two-piece crank in the stable that was
approaching old age. Apart from checking for this problem, is there
any way to prevent or mitigate it (apart from not buying Shimano or
similar designs)?

-- Jay Beattie.

It happens only when the bearing develops a lot of drag. It is unlikely
that this will happen on a road bike. All the incidents I know happened
on a ATB with guys who never do any maintenance on a bike. I remove the
crank after every off road season and check if the bearing is still
running smoothly. Clean as good as it can and try to squeeze in some
grease. If there is any doubt I replace the bearing. They are cheap.

Seems to me you praise very low maintenance strategies regarding some
components, but very tedious maintenance strategies with others. No?

Tedious? What do you mean? I don't praise anything. I only tell what I do.
Frank, my bikes are expensive so I take good care of them. I also ride in
every condition. 'I try to avoid riding in the wet' is something you won't
hear me saying. Sunday morning is club ride period, whole year round. I
also have a brutal cleaning method most people disaprove off but for me it
works and it saves me time.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765.../ATB27febr2011

I am also aware what I'm doing so I repack my hubs and check my crank
bearings after a season of abuse; riding and cleaning. I imagine that your
riding is so different from mine that we can't possibly have the same
maintenance regime.

--
Lou

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 9:57:28 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/23/2015 10:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 15:29:20 +0000, jbeattie said:

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:35:59 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 01:50:31 +0000, James said:

On 23/01/15 11:31, jbeattie wrote:


More at:
http://newsite.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/external-bearing-crank-systems-hollowtech-ii-megaexo-giga-x-pipe-x-type-campagnolo-ultra-torque
It's a very simple system -- also lightweight and stiff,
if that
matters to you. The negatives include expensive chain ring
replacement and shorter bearing life, but outboard BBs are so cheap
and easy to replace, that shorter bearing life is no big deal.

I used to routinely ruin a Shimano or Campy cartridge BB per
season, and I broke a Shimano cartridge BB axle (mid race). The
old type with a set of balls in a cage and adjustable cups in the
frame always either got loose or got crunchy to fast for my liking.

On expensive chain ring replacement and shorter bearing life, I can
Stronglight chain rings for my Campy UT cranks, that are not
excessively expensive like the genuine article, and as for bearing
life - well the bearings have lived for far longer than any other
BB bearing assy I've ever tried and without needing adjustment.

If they are negatives, I'm lost.

Shimano design has a loose fitting of the bearing on the axle. That
not a correct design but they do it because of simplicity and
cost. The result of it is that if the bearing slips relative to the
axle the axle wears and you whole crankset is shot. I saw this
happen more than once. You have to check it from time to time. It is
easy and new bearings as Jay told us are cheap. Campy cut the axle
in half, at least at the higher end stuff(Chorus, Record and Super
Record), and press fit the bearings on the axle. That is the corect
design but more complicated and expensive.

I have yet to experience the bearing/axle wear problem, but then
again, I broke the only two-piece crank in the stable that was
approaching old age. Apart from checking for this problem, is there
any way to prevent or mitigate it (apart from not buying Shimano or
similar designs)?

-- Jay Beattie.

It happens only when the bearing develops a lot of drag. It is unlikely
that this will happen on a road bike. All the incidents I know happened
on a ATB with guys who never do any maintenance on a bike. I remove the
crank after every off road season and check if the bearing is still
running smoothly. Clean as good as it can and try to squeeze in some
grease. If there is any doubt I replace the bearing. They are cheap.

Seems to me you praise very low maintenance strategies regarding some
components, but very tedious maintenance strategies with others. No?

Tedious? What do you mean? I don't praise anything. I only tell what I do..
Frank, my bikes are expensive so I take good care of them. I also ride in
every condition. 'I try to avoid riding in the wet' is something you won't
hear me saying. Sunday morning is club ride period, whole year round. I
also have a brutal cleaning method most people disaprove off but for me it
works and it saves me time.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765.../ATB27febr2011

I am also aware what I'm doing so I repack my hubs and check my crank
bearings after a season of abuse; riding and cleaning. I imagine that your
riding is so different from mine that we can't possibly have the same
maintenance regime.

How in the hell are we supposed to operate that pressure washer? The instructions are in a foreign language!

I think Frank is thinking about your post regarding chains and waxing chains. I don't spend much time with cleaning chains either and follow about the same program. They are disposable. Cranks are not disposable (or shouldn't be).

Plus, removing a modern two piece crank takes about two minutes. It's faster and easier than square drive/ISIS/Octalink, etc.

When I broke the two-piece crank on my commuter, it took me about ten minutes to take out the old crank, remove another crank from a different bike and then to re-install that crank on my commuter. It's easy to check the bearing during the install process -- its more or less part of the process since setting pre-load tells you whether the bearing is dragging and if there is side-play.

-- Jay Beattie.

jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 9:57:28 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/23/2015 10:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 15:29:20 +0000, jbeattie said:

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:35:59 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 01:50:31 +0000, James said:

On 23/01/15 11:31, jbeattie wrote:


More at:
http://newsite.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/external-bearing-crank-systems-hollowtech-ii-megaexo-giga-x-pipe-x-type-campagnolo-ultra-torque
It's a very simple system -- also lightweight and stiff,
if that
matters to you. The negatives include expensive chain ring
replacement and shorter bearing life, but outboard BBs are so cheap
and easy to replace, that shorter bearing life is no big deal.

I used to routinely ruin a Shimano or Campy cartridge BB per
season, and I broke a Shimano cartridge BB axle (mid race). The
old type with a set of balls in a cage and adjustable cups in the
frame always either got loose or got crunchy to fast for my liking.

On expensive chain ring replacement and shorter bearing life, I can
Stronglight chain rings for my Campy UT cranks, that are not
excessively expensive like the genuine article, and as for bearing
life - well the bearings have lived for far longer than any other
BB bearing assy I've ever tried and without needing adjustment.

If they are negatives, I'm lost.

Shimano design has a loose fitting of the bearing on the axle. That
not a correct design but they do it because of simplicity and
cost. The result of it is that if the bearing slips relative to the
axle the axle wears and you whole crankset is shot. I saw this
happen more than once. You have to check it from time to time. It is
easy and new bearings as Jay told us are cheap. Campy cut the axle
in half, at least at the higher end stuff(Chorus, Record and Super
Record), and press fit the bearings on the axle. That is the corect
design but more complicated and expensive.

I have yet to experience the bearing/axle wear problem, but then
again, I broke the only two-piece crank in the stable that was
approaching old age. Apart from checking for this problem, is there
any way to prevent or mitigate it (apart from not buying Shimano or
similar designs)?

-- Jay Beattie.

It happens only when the bearing develops a lot of drag. It is unlikely
that this will happen on a road bike. All the incidents I know happened
on a ATB with guys who never do any maintenance on a bike. I remove the
crank after every off road season and check if the bearing is still
running smoothly. Clean as good as it can and try to squeeze in some
grease. If there is any doubt I replace the bearing. They are cheap.

Seems to me you praise very low maintenance strategies regarding some
components, but very tedious maintenance strategies with others. No?

Tedious? What do you mean? I don't praise anything. I only tell what I do.
Frank, my bikes are expensive so I take good care of them. I also ride in
every condition. 'I try to avoid riding in the wet' is something you won't
hear me saying. Sunday morning is club ride period, whole year round. I
also have a brutal cleaning method most people disaprove off but for me it
works and it saves me time.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765.../ATB27febr2011

I am also aware what I'm doing so I repack my hubs and check my crank
bearings after a season of abuse; riding and cleaning. I imagine that your
riding is so different from mine that we can't possibly have the same
maintenance regime.

How in the hell are we supposed to operate that pressure washer? The
instructions are in a foreign language!

I think Frank is thinking about your post regarding chains and waxing
chains. I don't spend much time with cleaning chains either and follow
about the same program. They are disposable. Cranks are not disposable
(or shouldn't be).

For this kind of money:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...ech-II-p35878/
One could think to replace them every season.


Plus, removing a modern two piece crank takes about two minutes. It's
faster and easier than square drive/ISIS/Octalink, etc.

Excactly.


When I broke the two-piece crank on my commuter, it took me about ten
minutes to take out the old crank, remove another crank from a different
bike and then to re-install that crank on my commuter. It's easy to check
the bearing during the install process -- its more or less part of the
process since setting pre-load tells you whether the bearing is dragging
and if there is side-play.

I fill a 750 ml waterbottle with water hang it with a rope from the pedal
axle and turn the plastic thingie to apply the preload until the crankarm
is horizontal. The weight of the filled waterbottle applies just the right/
recommended preload.



--
Lou

On 1/23/2015 12:57 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

Seems to me you praise very low maintenance strategies regarding some
components, but very tedious maintenance strategies with others. No?

Tedious? What do you mean? I don't praise anything. I only tell what I do.

Well, perhaps it's more accurate to say you've disparaged what some
other people said they do; then you've stated what you do instead. I
was led to believe you thought your method was correct.

Frank, my bikes are expensive so I take good care of them. I also ride in
every condition. 'I try to avoid riding in the wet' is something you won't
hear me saying. Sunday morning is club ride period, whole year round.

You're right that I generally avoid riding in the rain, if I can. And
your bikes probably are worth more than mine, if only because mine are
mostly pretty old. OTOH, they've done very well with very, very
infrequent inspection of bottom brackets.

I also have a brutal cleaning method most people disaprove off but for me it
works and it saves me time.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765.../ATB27febr2011

I've done that as well. Bicycles mostly on long tours, and motorcycles
from time to time. I think it's fine if one is careful about where one
directs the stream.

I am also aware what I'm doing so I repack my hubs and check my crank
bearings after a season of abuse; riding and cleaning. I imagine that your
riding is so different from mine that we can't possibly have the same
maintenance regime.

I did the same for many years. It gradually dawned on me that I was
almost always removing clean grease and replacing it with more clean
grease, so I began slacking off.

Now I've got sealed bottom brackets on some bikes, sealed hubs on some,
and hubs with oil ports on others. I find I do far less bearing
maintenance than I once did.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/23/2015 1:34 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I think Frank is thinking about your post regarding chains and waxing chains.

Yep. We each have our methods. Without some competent data collection,
it's difficult to say what works best according to various criteria.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 24/01/15 03:57, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/23/2015 10:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 15:29:20 +0000, jbeattie said:

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:35:59 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 01:50:31 +0000, James said:

On 23/01/15 11:31, jbeattie wrote:


More at:
http://newsite.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/external-bearing-crank-systems-hollowtech-ii-megaexo-giga-x-pipe-x-type-campagnolo-ultra-torque
It's a very simple system -- also lightweight and stiff,
if that
matters to you. The negatives include expensive chain ring
replacement and shorter bearing life, but outboard BBs are so cheap
and easy to replace, that shorter bearing life is no big deal.

I used to routinely ruin a Shimano or Campy cartridge BB per
season, and I broke a Shimano cartridge BB axle (mid race). The
old type with a set of balls in a cage and adjustable cups in the
frame always either got loose or got crunchy to fast for my liking.

On expensive chain ring replacement and shorter bearing life, I can
Stronglight chain rings for my Campy UT cranks, that are not
excessively expensive like the genuine article, and as for bearing
life - well the bearings have lived for far longer than any other
BB bearing assy I've ever tried and without needing adjustment.

If they are negatives, I'm lost.

Shimano design has a loose fitting of the bearing on the axle. That
not a correct design but they do it because of simplicity and
cost. The result of it is that if the bearing slips relative to the
axle the axle wears and you whole crankset is shot. I saw this
happen more than once. You have to check it from time to time. It is
easy and new bearings as Jay told us are cheap. Campy cut the axle
in half, at least at the higher end stuff(Chorus, Record and Super
Record), and press fit the bearings on the axle. That is the corect
design but more complicated and expensive.

I have yet to experience the bearing/axle wear problem, but then
again, I broke the only two-piece crank in the stable that was
approaching old age. Apart from checking for this problem, is there
any way to prevent or mitigate it (apart from not buying Shimano or
similar designs)?

-- Jay Beattie.

It happens only when the bearing develops a lot of drag. It is unlikely
that this will happen on a road bike. All the incidents I know happened
on a ATB with guys who never do any maintenance on a bike. I remove the
crank after every off road season and check if the bearing is still
running smoothly. Clean as good as it can and try to squeeze in some
grease. If there is any doubt I replace the bearing. They are cheap.

Seems to me you praise very low maintenance strategies regarding some
components, but very tedious maintenance strategies with others. No?

Tedious? What do you mean? I don't praise anything. I only tell what I do.
Frank, my bikes are expensive so I take good care of them. I also ride in
every condition. 'I try to avoid riding in the wet' is something you won't
hear me saying. Sunday morning is club ride period, whole year round. I
also have a brutal cleaning method most people disaprove off but for me it
works and it saves me time.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765.../ATB27febr2011

I am also aware what I'm doing so I repack my hubs and check my crank
bearings after a season of abuse; riding and cleaning. I imagine that your
riding is so different from mine that we can't possibly have the same
maintenance regime.


Maintenance regime or maintenance religion? The lines are blurred.

--
JS

On 24/01/15 05:44, Lou Holtman wrote:


I fill a 750 ml waterbottle with water hang it with a rope from the pedal
axle and turn the plastic thingie to apply the preload until the crankarm
is horizontal. The weight of the filled waterbottle applies just the right/
recommended preload.


I have never ever performed such a ceremony to put together any
mechanical assembly on a bicycle.

Do you burn herbs and say a prayer as well? Do you wear special robes?
What about drinking the sacred water later?

Oh sorry, this is a regime for you, not religion... I get it.

--
JS

On 24/01/15 08:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/23/2015 12:57 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

I also have a brutal cleaning method most people disaprove off but for
me it
works and it saves me time.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765.../ATB27febr2011

I've done that as well. Bicycles mostly on long tours, and motorcycles
from time to time. I think it's fine if one is careful about where one
directs the stream.

Once while on holiday I used a self serve car wash booth to wash my
bicycle. I used the degreaser on the chain because the chain and gears
were full of grit after the bike had been on the back of the car over
some dusty dirt roads.

I then had to ride around a small town in search of a small bottle of
light oil so I could stop the chain from squeaking. A sewing machine
shop had a small bottle for a couple of dollars.

I hope never to have to do that again. It was like riding with someone
running their fingernails down a blackboard.

--
JS

On 1/26/2015 9:28 PM, James wrote:
On 24/01/15 08:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/23/2015 12:57 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

I also have a brutal cleaning method most people disaprove off but for
me it
works and it saves me time.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765.../ATB27febr2011

I've done that as well. Bicycles mostly on long tours, and motorcycles
from time to time. I think it's fine if one is careful about where one
directs the stream.

Once while on holiday I used a self serve car wash booth to wash my
bicycle.

Yep. That's where I've done it, too.

I used the degreaser on the chain because the chain and gears
were full of grit after the bike had been on the back of the car over
some dusty dirt roads.

I then had to ride around a small town in search of a small bottle of
light oil so I could stop the chain from squeaking. A sewing machine
shop had a small bottle for a couple of dollars.

I hope never to have to do that again. It was like riding with someone
running their fingernails down a blackboard.

On bike tours, I carry a tiny bottle (once holding medicated eyedrops)
filled with oil. That's the only time I use oil rather than my wax
regime to lube my chain.

Actually, I always carry that bottle; but tours seem to be the only time
it gets used.

--
- Frank Krygowski