Electric-assist bikes

On 2/3/17 10:06 PM, Ned Mantei wrote:
More recently I occasionally see E-mountain bikes, something that I
can't imagine using. Often enough part of my bike tour will involve
pushing the bike up a steep trail, lifting it up stairs or over rocks
and tree roots, or even having to lift it over a fence. Wouldn't be fun
or even possible if the bike weighs 35 kg.

I've hiked with 35+ KG on my back.
So it is possible.
But it most assuredly was not fun.

--
Wes Groleau

On 2/3/2017 2:47 PM, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/3/17 5:20 PM, Joerg wrote:
We'll all get there where regular cycling might not be in
the cards
anymore but we still want to get out

I'd rather be found next to my bike on the road
than next to my bed in the nursing home.


+1

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2017-02-03 12:47, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/3/17 5:20 PM, Joerg wrote:
We'll all get there where regular cycling might not be in the cards
anymore but we still want to get out

I'd rather be found next to my bike on the road
than next to my bed in the nursing home.


It may not be your choice to make. A friend hopped on his old road bike
in his 80's, fell, cracked several rib ... pneumonia ... survived but it
was a close call.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-02-03 12:49, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/3/17 6:04 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Joerg:
I saw more in Europe, a lot more as a percentage in the last years
(Germany) and those were pedal-only assist. They didn't go faster than a
regular road biker but they could zip up hills easier.

When I was fooling around with electric bikes, I think I read that the
Euro standard was 12 mph top speed - about 20 kph.

Made sense to me...

With petrol-powered mopeds allowed to do thirty MPH, I don't understand
why electrics should have a different limit. Not that I see much value
in something that can't get me to the next town.


AFAIR those gas-powered ones are not allowed on bike paths in many EU
countries.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2/3/2017 4:06 PM, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 03-02-17 17:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Electric-assist bikes are coming on strong. And there's some confusion
over how to treat them legally.

In the U.S., at least, it seems the trend is toward three legal classes
of electric bicycles, and having them generally following bicycle laws,
as opposed to motorcycle laws.

Class 1 would be electric assist only while the operator is pedaling,
with the assist cutting out at 20 mph (32 kph). (I'm not aware of any
lower limit on pedal torque or pedal power input - perhaps lightly
twirling a 56x11 gear would qualify?)

Class 2 would be no pedaling required, throttle controlled, but also
limited to 20 mph.

Class 3 would be pedaling required, but limited to 28 mph (45 kph).
That's fast.

I have no trouble with any of those on ordinary roads. But IMO, areas of
concern are segregated bike facilities. For example, it's not uncommon
for rail-trails, multi-use paths etc. to prohibit motors (except for
handicap-assist devices like wheelchairs) and thus prohibit these things
either intentionally or unintentionally. Speed limits may exist, but
they're difficult to enforce.

More seriously, even ordinary striped bike lanes cause some conflicts
between slower and faster riders. Cattle shoots - oops, make that
"protected cycletracks" - are even worse, with narrow widths, hard sides
(curbs & parked cars) and sometimes even bi-directional flow. Can you
imagine some 16-year-old hotshot at 20 or 28 mph zooming through the
slower riders and blasting through an intersection from a hidden
cycletrack?

I'm posting to find out what people are saying and what laws are being
written. I'm interested primarily in North American states and
provinces, but I'm somewhat curious about other countries too, although
I'd like to keep in mind that America is not Amsterdam.

And of course, if anyone has experience where there are already lots of
these things, I'd like to know how it's working out.

- Frank Krygowski

Here in Switzerland there are two classes:
* Those that will do 25 km/hr (ca. 15 mph) on the level are classed as
bicycles, and are allowed on all bike paths.
* Those that will do 45 km/h are put in the same class as
low-displacement motorbikes with pedals ("mopeds"), and also have the
same type of license plate. My impression is that these are not allowed
in situations such as when the bike lane is on a wide sidewalk that is
also used by pedestrians.

Concerning bike trails, I would note that here one is much less limited
in where to ride. Out in the countryside all the forest and field roads
are open to bicycles--even when the road passes right through the
barnyard. No one including the farmer finds this to be a problem. It
can, however, require waiting for the cows to pass by on their way from
the meadow back to the barn. Overall this road system allows for a quiet
and pleasant ride with little or no traffic beyond the occasional tractor.

Both types of E-bikes have become very common within the last 5 years or
so. There seem to be 3 main classes of users:
* generally elderly people on an excursion out in the countryside, as
described above mainly on forest and field roads,
* those dealing with heavy loads, such as 2 kids in a trailer or a
bakfiets (cargo bike), since even a slight hill gets very difficult
without the motor, and
* commuters who need to get to work relatively quickly and shouldn't be
or don't want to be hot and sweaty when they get there. These commuters
are the people most likely to be riding the faster E-bikes.

The people who want to go fast (45 km/h) are generally on ordinary
streets, and so not much different from those on motor scooters or mopeds.

I think that all of this works out very well. For myself I still prefer
just pedaling, but if the choice were staying home or using an E-bike I
would certainly want the bike.

More recently I occasionally see E-mountain bikes, something that I
can't imagine using. Often enough part of my bike tour will involve
pushing the bike up a steep trail, lifting it up stairs or over rocks
and tree roots, or even having to lift it over a fence. Wouldn't be fun
or even possible if the bike weighs 35 kg.

Ned

Thanks. That's good information.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/3/2017 4:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-02-03 12:47, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/3/17 5:20 PM, Joerg wrote:
We'll all get there where regular cycling might not be in the cards
anymore but we still want to get out

I'd rather be found next to my bike on the road
than next to my bed in the nursing home.


It may not be your choice to make. A friend hopped on his old road bike
in his 80's, fell, cracked several rib ... pneumonia ... survived but it
was a close call.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to die one way or another. A bike crash,
while _extremely_ unlikely, would be one of the better ways to go, I think.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:50:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/3/2017 4:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-02-03 12:47, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/3/17 5:20 PM, Joerg wrote:
We'll all get there where regular cycling might not be in the cards
anymore but we still want to get out

I'd rather be found next to my bike on the road
than next to my bed in the nursing home.


It may not be your choice to make. A friend hopped on his old road bike
in his 80's, fell, cracked several rib ... pneumonia ... survived but it
was a close call.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to die one way or another. A bike crash,
while _extremely_ unlikely, would be one of the better ways to go, I think.
Bedtter than suffering through 2 or more years of Multiple Myeloma
(or even the totally different Melanoma)

On 2017-02-03 13:06, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 03-02-17 17:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Electric-assist bikes are coming on strong. And there's some confusion
over how to treat them legally.

In the U.S., at least, it seems the trend is toward three legal classes
of electric bicycles, and having them generally following bicycle laws,
as opposed to motorcycle laws.

Class 1 would be electric assist only while the operator is pedaling,
with the assist cutting out at 20 mph (32 kph). (I'm not aware of any
lower limit on pedal torque or pedal power input - perhaps lightly
twirling a 56x11 gear would qualify?)

Class 2 would be no pedaling required, throttle controlled, but also
limited to 20 mph.

Class 3 would be pedaling required, but limited to 28 mph (45 kph).
That's fast.

I have no trouble with any of those on ordinary roads. But IMO, areas of
concern are segregated bike facilities. For example, it's not uncommon
for rail-trails, multi-use paths etc. to prohibit motors (except for
handicap-assist devices like wheelchairs) and thus prohibit these things
either intentionally or unintentionally. Speed limits may exist, but
they're difficult to enforce.

More seriously, even ordinary striped bike lanes cause some conflicts
between slower and faster riders. Cattle shoots - oops, make that
"protected cycletracks" - are even worse, with narrow widths, hard sides
(curbs & parked cars) and sometimes even bi-directional flow. Can you
imagine some 16-year-old hotshot at 20 or 28 mph zooming through the
slower riders and blasting through an intersection from a hidden
cycletrack?

I'm posting to find out what people are saying and what laws are being
written. I'm interested primarily in North American states and
provinces, but I'm somewhat curious about other countries too, although
I'd like to keep in mind that America is not Amsterdam.

And of course, if anyone has experience where there are already lots of
these things, I'd like to know how it's working out.

- Frank Krygowski

Here in Switzerland there are two classes:
* Those that will do 25 km/hr (ca. 15 mph) on the level are classed as
bicycles, and are allowed on all bike paths.


When I lived in Europe this sometimes included gas-powered slow bikes.
In Germany they called them MoFa which is short for Motor-Fahrrad or
Motorized Bicycle. In the Netherlands they called them Bromfiets which
translates to "Humming Bicycle".

The simplest one was made by the carburetor company Solex. They called
it Velo Solex and the engine drove a rubber gear which could be lowered
onto the front tire via a handle. A front-wheel driven bicycle.
Considering the position of the gas tank a serious head-on collision was
not advised.

http://racem.org/wp-content/uploads/...olex-330-4.jpg

Sometimes on the way back from the valley I wish I has such a little engine.


* Those that will do 45 km/h are put in the same class as
low-displacement motorbikes with pedals ("mopeds"), and also have the
same type of license plate. My impression is that these are not allowed
in situations such as when the bike lane is on a wide sidewalk that is
also used by pedestrians.

Concerning bike trails, I would note that here one is much less limited
in where to ride. Out in the countryside all the forest and field roads
are open to bicycles--even when the road passes right through the
barnyard. No one including the farmer finds this to be a problem. It
can, however, require waiting for the cows to pass by on their way from
the meadow back to the barn.


This is why the German word for fender is Kotfluegel. Fluegel is a sort
of "covering wing" and Kot means, well, the smelly stuff that cows drop
onto the path.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2/3/2017 4:38 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-02-03 13:06, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 03-02-17 17:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Electric-assist bikes are coming on strong. And there's
some confusion
over how to treat them legally.

In the U.S., at least, it seems the trend is toward three
legal classes
of electric bicycles, and having them generally following
bicycle laws,
as opposed to motorcycle laws.

Class 1 would be electric assist only while the operator
is pedaling,
with the assist cutting out at 20 mph (32 kph). (I'm not
aware of any
lower limit on pedal torque or pedal power input -
perhaps lightly
twirling a 56x11 gear would qualify?)

Class 2 would be no pedaling required, throttle
controlled, but also
limited to 20 mph.

Class 3 would be pedaling required, but limited to 28 mph
(45 kph).
That's fast.

I have no trouble with any of those on ordinary roads.
But IMO, areas of
concern are segregated bike facilities. For example,
it's not uncommon
for rail-trails, multi-use paths etc. to prohibit motors
(except for
handicap-assist devices like wheelchairs) and thus
prohibit these things
either intentionally or unintentionally. Speed limits
may exist, but
they're difficult to enforce.

More seriously, even ordinary striped bike lanes cause
some conflicts
between slower and faster riders. Cattle shoots - oops,
make that
"protected cycletracks" - are even worse, with narrow
widths, hard sides
(curbs & parked cars) and sometimes even bi-directional
flow. Can you
imagine some 16-year-old hotshot at 20 or 28 mph zooming
through the
slower riders and blasting through an intersection from a
hidden
cycletrack?

I'm posting to find out what people are saying and what
laws are being
written. I'm interested primarily in North American
states and
provinces, but I'm somewhat curious about other countries
too, although
I'd like to keep in mind that America is not Amsterdam.

And of course, if anyone has experience where there are
already lots of
these things, I'd like to know how it's working out.

- Frank Krygowski

Here in Switzerland there are two classes:
* Those that will do 25 km/hr (ca. 15 mph) on the level
are classed as
bicycles, and are allowed on all bike paths.


When I lived in Europe this sometimes included gas-powered
slow bikes. In Germany they called them MoFa which is short
for Motor-Fahrrad or Motorized Bicycle. In the Netherlands
they called them Bromfiets which translates to "Humming
Bicycle".

The simplest one was made by the carburetor company Solex.
They called it Velo Solex and the engine drove a rubber gear
which could be lowered onto the front tire via a handle. A
front-wheel driven bicycle. Considering the position of the
gas tank a serious head-on collision was not advised.

http://racem.org/wp-content/uploads/...olex-330-4.jpg

Sometimes on the way back from the valley I wish I has such
a little engine.


* Those that will do 45 km/h are put in the same class as
low-displacement motorbikes with pedals ("mopeds"), and
also have the
same type of license plate. My impression is that these
are not allowed
in situations such as when the bike lane is on a wide
sidewalk that is
also used by pedestrians.

Concerning bike trails, I would note that here one is much
less limited
in where to ride. Out in the countryside all the forest
and field roads
are open to bicycles--even when the road passes right
through the
barnyard. No one including the farmer finds this to be a
problem. It
can, however, require waiting for the cows to pass by on
their way from
the meadow back to the barn.


This is why the German word for fender is Kotfluegel.
Fluegel is a sort of "covering wing" and Kot means, well,
the smelly stuff that cows drop onto the path.

[...]


re VeloSolex dangers;
Yes, Paul McCartney lost his front teeth to one.
Millions of other people managed these, and copies, for many
years while they were fashionable. YMMV

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, February 3, 2017 at 2:17:38 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:50:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/3/2017 4:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-02-03 12:47, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/3/17 5:20 PM, Joerg wrote:
We'll all get there where regular cycling might not be in the cards
anymore but we still want to get out

I'd rather be found next to my bike on the road
than next to my bed in the nursing home.


It may not be your choice to make. A friend hopped on his old road bike
in his 80's, fell, cracked several rib ... pneumonia ... survived but it
was a close call.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to die one way or another. A bike crash,
while _extremely_ unlikely, would be one of the better ways to go, I think.
Bedtter than suffering through 2 or more years of Multiple Myeloma
(or even the totally different Melanoma)

That's 'MelanIA'