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When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 26th 07, 05:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Donald Munro
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Default When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

Donald Munro wrote:
Basso TT improvement didn't happen overnight, it started when he moved
to CSC and Riis made sure he worked on his TT position and made him ride
his TT bike frequently. Pantani in 98 would be a better example.


Doug Taylor wrote:
Pantani is ANOTHER example. I still like the circumstantial
correlation: Climber - sucky TT - Blood doping - sudden TT
improvement - grand tour victory.


Someone with a non-aerodynamic position can achieve quite large
improvement just by improving their position and getting to feel
comfortable on the TT bike. After that the law of diminishing returns
comes into effect and the rider also needs to improve power.

Also the TT that Rasmussen did was far from flat, a flat TT like the one
on Saturday would have been a better test of his pure TT form.

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  #12  
Old July 26th 07, 06:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Morten Reippuert Knudsen
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Default When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

Donald Munro wrote:
Doug Taylor wrote:
His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.


Basso TT improvement didn't happen overnight, it started when he moved to
CSC and Riis made sure he worked on his TT position and made him ride his
TT bike frequently. Pantani in 98 would be a better example.


Basso isn't a climber, he's an allrounder who just learnt the dicipline
late in his carrer.
Contador and Herras a both examples of pure climbers with
extraordinary good TT abilities. Saiz, Brunel and dr.Fuentes did a
very good job with both of them.

Similary one should stop and wonder when big guys like Indurain,
Armstrong, Hincape, Ulrich and Vinokurov suddenly goes uphill for
hours like a steam lokomotive.

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Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
  #13  
Old July 26th 07, 06:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Morten Reippuert Knudsen
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Default When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

Doug Taylor wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 01:57:36 -0400, "Breaking News"
wrote:


Funnily enough, today, after he fended off the attacks in the last stretch
of the steep mountains, and won the stage. (I was going to post here, "Is he
on drugs?" and then the story broke.) Others have suspected him for much
longer. (I wasn't aware he'd evaded the drug tests.)


His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.


Rasmussen wouldn't have won TDF because of TT results.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) http://blog.reippuert.dk

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
  #14  
Old July 26th 07, 06:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Doug Taylor
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Default When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:20:15 +0100, Simon Brooke
wrote:

in message , Doug Taylor
') wrote:

His TT. *Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: *Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

HELLO?

No, he hasn't tested positive, but you'd have to be pretty naive to
ignore the circumstantial evidence.


You're missing an important point here. Note: I'm not defending Rasmussen,
I don't know whether he's doped or not. However, Rasmussen has always been
a time trial specialist, he's just done his time trials on a road bike and
in the mountains. But unlike any other modern climber, his typical exploit
is a very long solo breakaway. He doesn't need anyone to work with him,
and he doesn't need anyone to chase. In effect these rides have been time
trials - they take exactly the same mental discipline as time trials, they
take exactly the same physical stamina as time trials, and they're
considerably tougher than most modern time trials.

We remember one specific time trial in which Rasmussen had every sort of
bad luck and lost his composure and his confidence totally, and we say 'he
can't time trial'. But that's just rubbish. He has put in astounding time
trial performances in all the last three tours - he just hasn't done it on
time trial stages.

Rasmussen /may/ have doped, but his time trial performance isn't any sort
of evidence of it.


The analysis is not entirely off the mark. Not to mention that he was
a mountain biker, and those races are really time trials in the woods.

But in THIS tour, he did a (in?)credible TT in a time trial stage.
Yes, he was defending a yellow jersey in this tour. In past tours,
when his TT stages were crap - and not just the 2006 embarrassment;
check 2005 - his goal was a polka dot jersey and a top 10 g.c.
finish. Could be apples and oranges.

But he came to THIS tour following training in what now appears to be
suspicious circumstances, which in retrospect should have precluded
his starting in the first place.

My guess is that he was blood doped to the gills with a plan to win
the race. Nobody but nobody picked him to be close to the podium
before the race. Then he starts putting big time in the Alps, holds on
with an unlikely TT performance, and then kicks major butt in every
single Pyrenees stage.

Sorry, but the cynical side of me says: Marco Pantani, Roberto Heras,
Ivan Basso, Mickael Rasmussen: Climbers who doped to win (almost win)
grand tours.

We'll see...
  #15  
Old July 26th 07, 06:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Kurgan Gringioni
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Posts: 1,796
Default When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

On Jul 26, 10:00 am, Morten Reippuert
wrote:



Similary one should stop and wonder when big guys like Indurain,
Armstrong, Hincape, Ulrich and Vinokurov suddenly goes uphill for
hours like a steam lokomotive.



Dumbass -


Ullrich went uphill like the locomotive from the very start. There was
never a transformation - he took 2nd in his first TdF. Dude had
everything but the discipline.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

  #16  
Old July 26th 07, 06:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Mark
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Posts: 359
Default When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

Simon Brooke wrote:
in message , Doug Taylor
') wrote:

His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

HELLO?

No, he hasn't tested positive, but you'd have to be pretty naive to
ignore the circumstantial evidence.


You're missing an important point here. Note: I'm not defending Rasmussen,
I don't know whether he's doped or not. However, Rasmussen has always been
a time trial specialist, he's just done his time trials on a road bike and
in the mountains. But unlike any other modern climber, his typical exploit
is a very long solo breakaway. He doesn't need anyone to work with him,
and he doesn't need anyone to chase. In effect these rides have been time
trials - they take exactly the same mental discipline as time trials, they
take exactly the same physical stamina as time trials, and they're
considerably tougher than most modern time trials.


If you said he was a mountain-time-trial specialist, I'd agree. There
his very high power-to-weight ratio serves him well. On a flat TT, it's
the power-to-frontal-area ratio that matters most (or power-to-air-drag
ratio). There his physiological or body-type advantage is less, and
he'd be expected to do less well. Further, his mountain exploits are
several hours long versus a ~1 hour time trial. While he has the
mental/physiological ability to do long hilly solo efforts, that's not
quite a TT as the Tour has come to stage them (excluding uphill TTs,
anyway).

That said, it's quite true that Rasmussen's change from the final TT in
the '06 tour to the first TT in the '07 tour is very credibly laid
primarily to his having gotten a clue about how to ride a TT stage - he
was certainly clueless (or psyched out and semi-clueless) last year. He
didn't need improved doping to radically improve over his '06 TT's.
That's not to say he wasn't doping for either or both, either.

Mark J.
  #17  
Old July 26th 07, 09:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Doug Taylor
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Posts: 430
Default When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:02:23 +0200, Morten Reippuert
wrote:

Doug Taylor wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 01:57:36 -0400, "Breaking News"
wrote:


Funnily enough, today, after he fended off the attacks in the last stretch
of the steep mountains, and won the stage. (I was going to post here, "Is he
on drugs?" and then the story broke.) Others have suspected him for much
longer. (I wasn't aware he'd evaded the drug tests.)


His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.


Rasmussen wouldn't have won TDF because of TT results.


Not true. He lost than 7 minutes in the 2005 TT

http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/res...es/8592.0.html


and 8 minutes in 2006

http://www.velonews.com/tour2006/res...s/10535.0.html

This year he defends.

Do the math.
  #18  
Old July 26th 07, 10:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Default When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:00:40 +0200, Morten Reippuert
wrote:

Similary one should stop and wonder when big guys like Indurain,
Armstrong, Hincape, Ulrich and Vinokurov suddenly goes uphill for
hours like a steam lokomotive.


Suddenly?

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  #19  
Old July 26th 07, 10:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Dan Connelly
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Posts: 451
Default When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

Mark wrote:

That said, it's quite true that Rasmussen's change from the final TT in
the '06 tour to the first TT in the '07 tour is very credibly laid
primarily to his having gotten a clue about how to ride a TT stage - he
was certainly clueless (or psyched out and semi-clueless) last year. He
didn't need improved doping to radically improve over his '06 TT's.
That's not to say he wasn't doping for either or both, either.


stage 1 ITT 2005 (prologue-like):
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005...esults/tour051
174th place

Second ITT: no untainted split times available.


Prologue 2007:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007...esults/tour070
166th place


I don't see evidence of improvement which can't be explained by motivation.

Then again, there is testimony he has been doping as far back as 2002, so why should we expect it?

Dan
  #20  
Old July 26th 07, 11:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Default When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

On Jul 26, 10:00 am, Morten Reippuert
wrote:
Donald Munro wrote:

Basso isn't a climber, he's an allrounder who just learnt the dicipline
late in his carrer.
Contador and Herras a both examples of pure climbers with
extraordinary good TT abilities. Saiz, Brunel and dr.Fuentes did a
very good job with both of them.

Similary one should stop and wonder when big guys like Indurain,
Armstrong, Hincape, Ulrich and Vinokurov suddenly goes uphill for
hours like a steam lokomotive.


Heras used to be much worse at TTs, then suddenly he got
good, suspiciously good. Contador is still pretty young,
so some improvement in TTs is not crazy. Indurain and
Hincapie are pretty big; Ullrich moderately so, though
as JFT points out, he was always good. Armstrong and
Vinokourov aren't even that big - they're both 5'10".

I don't think any of these guys are pure as the driven
snow, but I also don't have dopedar - I can't tell they're
doping just by looking at them.

Ben

 




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