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#41
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Mostly OT/Head Injury and Death
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:37:00 -0700, "Paul M. Hobson"
wrote: wrote: Ask skiers wearing helmets if they'd slow down without the helmets. I wouldn't slow down without my helmet. I only wear it b/c it's so convenient. It's strapped on and my goggles are strapped to it = no yard sale if I take a tumble. The only thing I worry about when I'm on the slopes is my left wrist, having spent the past 2 years recovering from two wrist surgeries. Dear Paul, Sure, you wear a helmet just to hold your goggles. Cheers, Carl Fogel |
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#42
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Mostly OT/Head Injury and Death
Tom Sherman wrote:
Paul M. Hobson wrote: wrote: Ask skiers wearing helmets if they'd slow down without the helmets. I wouldn't slow down without my helmet. I only wear it b/c it's so convenient. It's strapped on and my goggles are strapped to it = no yard sale if I take a tumble. The only thing I worry about when I'm on the slopes is my left wrist, having spent the past 2 years recovering from two wrist surgeries. Can you wear an inline skating type wrist guard? Those don't seem to help much -- especially the ones that fit under gloves. Best thing to do is to not fall on my left wrist -- Paul M. Hobson ..:change the f to ph to reply:. |
#44
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Mostly OT/Head Injury and Death
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:41:16 -0700, "Paul M. Hobson"
wrote: wrote: On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:37:00 -0700, "Paul M. Hobson" wrote: wrote: Ask skiers wearing helmets if they'd slow down without the helmets. I wouldn't slow down without my helmet. I only wear it b/c it's so convenient. It's strapped on and my goggles are strapped to it = no yard sale if I take a tumble. The only thing I worry about when I'm on the slopes is my left wrist, having spent the past 2 years recovering from two wrist surgeries. Dear Paul, Sure, you wear a helmet just to hold your goggles. Cheers, Carl Fogel No. Seriously, I do. I forgot the helmet a few weeks back and rode the exact same way. It's more convenient for me. Plain and simple. Dear Paul, Seriously, I have no doubt that you're different from everyone else ever observed. They just _think_ that they don't risk compensate. :-) Cheers, Carl Fogel |
#45
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Mostly OT/Head Injury and Death
Paul M. Hobson wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote: Paul M. Hobson wrote: wrote: Ask skiers wearing helmets if they'd slow down without the helmets. I wouldn't slow down without my helmet. I only wear it b/c it's so convenient. It's strapped on and my goggles are strapped to it = no yard sale if I take a tumble. The only thing I worry about when I'm on the slopes is my left wrist, having spent the past 2 years recovering from two wrist surgeries. Can you wear an inline skating type wrist guard? Those don't seem to help much -- especially the ones that fit under gloves. Best thing to do is to not fall on my left wrist A tadpole recumbent trike will prevent that, unless you ride like a complete idiot. -- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll |
#46
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Mostly OT/Head Injury and Death
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#47
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Mostly OT/Head Injury and Death
Paul M. Hobson wrote:
wrote: Ask skiers wearing helmets if they'd slow down without the helmets. Paul M. Hobson wrote: I wouldn't slow down without my helmet. I only wear it b/c it's so convenient. It's strapped on and my goggles are strapped to it = no yard sale if I take a tumble. The only thing I worry about when I'm on the slopes is my left wrist, having spent the past 2 years recovering from two wrist surgeries. Tom Sherman wrote: Can you wear an inline skating type wrist guard? Paul M. Hobson wrote: Those don't seem to help much -- especially the ones that fit under gloves. Best thing to do is to not fall on my left wrist Tom Sherman wrote: A tadpole recumbent trike will prevent that, unless you ride like a complete idiot. I don't know how well that'd do in the Cascade Concrete or how I'd even get it on the lift! Switch to X/C skiing to avoid falls. -- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll |
#48
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Mostly OT/Head Injury and Death
In article ,
wrote: On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 22:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Dan O wrote: On Mar 20, 10:45 pm, Bret wrote: On Mar 20, 2:57 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Mar 20, 3:27 pm, Dan O wrote: On Mar 20, 9:06 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: In another article,http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29772691/ : "The National Ski Areas Association (NSAA) of the United States estimated 43 percent of skiers and snowboarders wore helmets in the 2007-08 season, against 25 percent five years earlier. ... "The increase in the use of helmets has not reduced the overall number of skiing fatalities," the NSAA said in a statement. "More than half of the people involved in fatal accidents last season were wearing helmets." So more than half the fatalities were in helmets. But fewer than half wear them. IOW, helmet use is _positively_ correlated with fatality. Risk compensation, anyone? People who intend to ski as fast as they possibly can are the ones more likely to wear a helmet. Would they ski quite as fast, or in quite as risky a manner, if they did not wear a helmet? Judging by those figures above, probably not. It's a chicken and egg question. Are people wearing helmets because they're doing something dangerous or doing something dangerous because they're wearing helmets? You think it's the latter. The former makes much more sense to me but I don't know. You seem pretty sure of something that is unknowable without more information. Maybe you're the type that just doesn't know how to day "I don't know". Bret They don't go especially fast *because* they happen to have a helmet on; they put on the helmet because they intend to go fast, and mean to ameliorate the obvious risk. Dear Dan & Bret, The often-cited Munich taxi driver study measured and observed that the taxi drivers routinely drove faster and followed more closely when they drew an ABS taxi from the driving pool. http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/target/chapter07.html Two things are often noted about risk compensation: 1) We often insist that we don't compensate for perceived risks. 2) We all compensate for risk when observed. Ask skiers wearing helmets if they'd slow down without the helmets. If they answer yes, then it's risk compensation, If they answer no, then a study like the Munich taxi study is practically a sure bet to show that they slow down, no matter how much they insist otherwise. That's why insurance companies stopped giving customers a discount for anti-lock brakes--risk compensation led to the same level of accidents. For the bonus question, Carl, what recent (widely available on new cars, but became widespread after ABS) safety feature on cars appears to be creating a statistically significant safety improvement? http://www.iihs.org/research/topics/esc.html (summarizing work published in: Traffic Injury Prevention 5:317-25 Traffic Injury Prevention 7:319-24 -- Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/ "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls." "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them." |
#49
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Mostly OT/Head Injury and Death
On Mar 21, 3:00*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article , *Bret wrote: On Mar 20, 9:45*pm, " wrote: On Mar 20, 8:07*pm, Tim McNamara wrote: " wrote: When I whacked the side of my head in a CX race I also got a bunch of gravel cuts (actually it was the second time I'd fallen on this short loose descent). We had a friend who was an EMT at the race and she cleaned up my cuts while making a lot of small talk with me, which later I realized was also a subtle way of doing a mental/head-injury evaluation. Good call, that was probably exactly what he was doing. *"Who's the President" is really not that great a question for assessing these things. *Also, since problems can develop over time, he was probably re-checking periodically. She. *I don't remember if she actually re-evaluated me, but since we were more or less in the same place over the next couple of hours and I was capable of holding a conversation with the rest of the hangers-on at the scorers' tent, effectively yes. I was once in that situation and was asked what day it was, *I answered "They tell me it's Thursday". Apparently, I'd already been asked that question and been corrected. -- What day is it? -- Four. -- Michael Press I did something like that once without the benefit of a head injury. At the crucial moment of a very hard race I noticed that my front tire was going soft. I waited until we crested the climb that we were on and then I did what I had rehearsed in my mind, I raised my left hand. That was supposed to produce a quick front wheel change (left hand for front wheel, right hand for rear wheel) but instead the neutral support guy jumped out of the the car and yelled, "Which wheel do you need"? I responded "Left! ... I mean front"! Bret |
#50
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Mostly OT/Head Injury and Death
In article ,
Michael Press wrote: In article , " wrote: On Mar 20, 10:45*pm, Bret wrote: On Mar 20, 2:57*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Mar 20, 3:27*pm, Dan O wrote: On Mar 20, 9:06*am, Frank Krygowski wrote: In another article,http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29772691/*: "The National Ski Areas Association (NSAA) of the United States estimated 43 percent of skiers and snowboarders wore helmets in the 2007-08 season, against 25 percent five years earlier. ... "The increase in the use of helmets has not reduced the overall number of skiing fatalities," the NSAA said in a statement. "More than half of the people involved in fatal accidents last season were wearing helmets." So more than half the fatalities were in helmets. *But fewer than half wear them. *IOW, helmet use is _positively_ correlated with fatality. Risk compensation, anyone? People who intend to ski as fast as they possibly can are the ones more likely to wear a helmet. Would they ski quite as fast, or in quite as risky a manner, if they did not wear a helmet? Judging by those figures above, probably not. It's a chicken and egg question. Are people *wearing helmets because they're doing something dangerous or doing something dangerous because they're wearing helmets? You think it's the latter. The former makes much more sense to me but I don't know. You seem pretty sure of something that is unknowable without more information. Maybe you're the type *that just doesn't know how to day "I don't know". This argument about ski helmets and behavior also suffers from a lack of information. We don't have any idea whether the ski fatalities discussed refer to only in-bounds or also out-of-bounds skiing, and whether they are strictly impact related accidents. On a bike, the main cause of getting hurt is crashing, but this is not always so in skiing. Even if you only consider crashing and rule out avalanches, most ways of riding bike are pretty safe (excluding at night without lights, and some extreme downhill MTBing). This is not so true of downhill skiing, where style can have a big effect on how likely you are to get hurt. I hesitate to get involved in a helmet thread, but IMO looking at fatalities is not a great way to measure whether helmets do anything. Many fatalities (ski or bike) occur in impacts where only a helmet the size of a Green Bay Cheesehead could have helped. IMO the effect of helmets is more likely to occasionally mitigate what would have been a bad concussion into a mild concussion, or a mild concussion into just a sore spot. Whether this is worth anything is up to the wearer. And now that you are involved, head injuries beyond abrasions are from stopping and sloshing, and from neck twists, neither of which are ameliorated by bicycle helmets. Even when a bicycle helmeted head strikes an object, the head decelerates. Helmets do nothing to prevent neck twists. Helmets may make neck twists worse by providing a larger circumference "head", making it easier to hit the ground, and also "grabbing" the ground. Although I have no idea if there is any data on this kind of thing, e.g., whether anyone has been tracking changes in the rates of neck injuries to cyclists after the widespread use of helmets took hold. |
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