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  #101  
Old November 14th 19, 10:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Basso Loto [OT]

On 11/14/2019 2:14 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
:On 11/14/2019 11:38 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
: Frank Krygowski wrote:
: :On 11/13/2019 9:21 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
: : jbeattie wrote:
: :
: :
: : Don't you guys have NG?
: : https://energykinetics.com/savingshe...elcomparisons/ NG beats every
: : other fuel in terms of cost per therm and low levels of pollutants.
: :
: : -- Jay Beattie.
: :
: :
: : In the Pacific Northwest, electrically powered heat pumps rate better than
: : in New England, due to cheaper electricity rates, higher SEER due to higher
: : ambient temperatures, and zero emissions from hydroelectric dams.
:
: :That seems to make sense. I was surprised to read, several years ago,
: :that Ontario was heavily promoting heat pumps. They're not very
: :efficient at low air temperatures.
:
: There are lots of units that have an efficency of greater than 100%
: down to -14F.
:
: :https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...neer-1.4024786
:
: I'd have to see his numbers, but I expect he's under calculating the
: efficency of the heat pump.
:

:??
oes 'efficency of greater than 100%' mean you get more
:energy out than you put in?

Yes. That's how heat pumps work. They pump heat from where you don't
want it to where you do, which is more effecicent that making the heat.
In the case of an air source heat pump used for heat, that's the outside
to the inside. used for cooling, it's the other way around.


Instead of describing it as efficiency greater than 100%, it's normally
called the Coefficient of Performance. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeffi...of_performance But for heat
pumps COP is highly dependent on outside temperature. The colder it gets
outside, the worse the COP. It's analogous to pumping water up a higher
distance. It takes more work.

Heat pumps can be a good deal, especially where winters are mild and
summers are hot enough to need AC. You're paying for AC hardware
(compressor, a couple of heat exchangers, etc.) to pump heat out in
summer, so why not add a few valves to pump heat in during the winter?

I remain surprised it makes sense in a chillier place like Ontario,
where AC is much less a necessity. Seems payback period on that hardware
would be a lot longer, especially compared to inexpensive natural gas.
Not to mention tactics like super-insulation.

IIRC Carl Fogel had a heat pump and was pretty dissatisfied with it. I
don't remember why, though.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #102  
Old November 14th 19, 10:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
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Posts: 1,346
Default Basso Loto [OT]

Frank Krygowski wrote:
:On 11/14/2019 2:14 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
: AMuzi wrote:
: :On 11/14/2019 11:38 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
: : Frank Krygowski wrote:
: : :On 11/13/2019 9:21 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
: : : jbeattie wrote:
: : :
: : :
: : : Don't you guys have NG?
: : : https://energykinetics.com/savingshe...elcomparisons/ NG beats every
: : : other fuel in terms of cost per therm and low levels of pollutants.
: : :
: : : -- Jay Beattie.
: : :
: : :
: : : In the Pacific Northwest, electrically powered heat pumps rate better than
: : : in New England, due to cheaper electricity rates, higher SEER due to higher
: : : ambient temperatures, and zero emissions from hydroelectric dams.
: :
: : :That seems to make sense. I was surprised to read, several years ago,
: : :that Ontario was heavily promoting heat pumps. They're not very
: : :efficient at low air temperatures.
: :
: : There are lots of units that have an efficency of greater than 100%
: : down to -14F.
: :
: : :https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...neer-1.4024786
: :
: : I'd have to see his numbers, but I expect he's under calculating the
: : efficency of the heat pump.
: :
:
: :??
: oes 'efficency of greater than 100%' mean you get more
: :energy out than you put in?
:
: Yes. That's how heat pumps work. They pump heat from where you don't
: want it to where you do, which is more effecicent that making the heat.
: In the case of an air source heat pump used for heat, that's the outside
: to the inside. used for cooling, it's the other way around.

:Instead of describing it as efficiency greater than 100%, it's normally
:called the Coefficient of Performance. See
:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeffi...of_performance But for heat
umps COP is highly dependent on outside temperature. The colder it gets
utside, the worse the COP. It's analogous to pumping water up a higher
:distance. It takes more work.



:Heat pumps can be a good deal, especially where winters are mild and
:summers are hot enough to need AC. You're paying for AC hardware
compressor, a couple of heat exchangers, etc.) to pump heat out in
:summer, so why not add a few valves to pump heat in during the winter?

You need to catch up. Heating with a heat pump makes sense
economically in quite a lot of the US.

The COP of high end heat pumps is over 2 at -14F. It's over
4 at freezing. Gas is cheap these days, but very few places is it
twice as cheap as elecricity. And in much of Candada, there is no
gas, and houses are heated with resistive electric heaters. The pay
back is pretty fast.



--
sig 56
  #103  
Old November 14th 19, 11:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Basso Loto [OT]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:08 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-13 17:45, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:23:24 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-13 14:49, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:31:27 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-12 17:00, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 16:39:34 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-12 14:43, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 07:03:29 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-11 20:29, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 06:58:31 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-09 14:57, John B. wrote:

[...]

In fact I can't remember any house having it's chimney cleaned so it
must not have been a common happening.


That is like with safety belts, grandpa's car didn't have them and he
lived well into his 90's. Yet we won't drive without.

I'm not saying that they don't happen, just that I never saw it happen
and we lived in one neighborhood and my grandparents lived about a
mile away and I think that if a chimney fire had happened in either
neighborhood it would have been BIG NEWS all up an down the street so
I think I would have heard about it.

But I would winder about why a chimney fire occurred twice within a
reasonable length of time.
Not setting their stove correctly, i.e., burning too rich a mixture
and generating too much "soot"?


The usual, making a fire in the stove and dampering it down too much.
That results in a hardcore creosote layer. They had smoke crawling out
of the chimney all the time. Even after those fires they did not learn.
Most people do not learn this, for whatever reason. Problem is that the
incompetence on the part of people with wood stoves also results in a
lot of wood burning bans that hit people who are competent in that domain.

Probably a defect in the modern educational system. Nobody seems to be
educated regarding how to manage wood fires any more. :-)


To my surprise the vast majority of "smoky burners" are old people. They
are also very resistant to learning anything knew about it, proclaiming
to be experts. One woman had the chimney smoking so bad that people
walking farther up the street started coughing. She usually threw one
lone log into the stove with just a few burning embers in there and
didn't even bother to open the air intakes. Upon suggesting to do it a
little differently she respomnded "Well, that's how my late husband
always did it and he knew!"

Loyalty! I just love it :-)


But both the "damper" in the pipe and the air inlets on the stove work
together to control the fire and improper adjustment have a major
effect on both the heat generated and the amount of wood burned.


Modern stoves like ours only have inlet controls. Primary air jets for
the initial phase (on/off control) and then a secondary air control with
vernier. The trick is to adjust that secondary so you have a sustained
hot burn above the wood (it mostly burns the wood gas) but no less air.
The result is a wood burn with no smoke and no smell as it should be.


... If
you have to cut and split your own firewood you will learn to be
frugal :-)


I just split another half cord of oak, by hand. Yet I'd never pollute
the neighborhood with smoke. Smoke crawling out of the chimney means
lots of unburnt particles in there so dampering a fire down too much is
actually a wasteful use of firewood. This is the key fact that most
self-proclaimed "experienced" wood stove users do not understand.

Perhaps, today. But when I was a boy wood fires were apparently much
better understood although no one worried about smoke in the sense of
contaminating the atmosphere but certainly in the sense that they
weren't burning the wood efficiently and therefore "wasting" wood...


I remember the not so good old days when as a cyclist I came through
small valleys or villages during winter and had to cough. There are
undoubtedly lots of people who lived there and needlessly and gruesomely
died of lung cancer because residents didn't know how to properly
operate a wood stove.

When I was a boy growing up in a northern New England town everyone
heated their house with either wood or coal, some people, my paternal
grandmother for example, were still cooking with wood, and I can't
remember any fumes floating around. Granted that 50 or 60 year old
memory is perhaps not so acute, but still, I think if the town had
been covered with a choking cloud of smoke I would have remembered it.


It's not the memory, it that you were used to it. Just like we all were
used to the fumes of car traffic while nowadays I can immediately smell
if a vintage car passing me had a stock engine or a modern one.


You just wrote, " I came through small valleys or villages during
winter and had to cough". Perhaps I should have been more explicate
and said that I don't remember ever having to ca ugh when I walked
down town.

As for your idea that it was because we were used to it, I think that
you are wrong. We lived about a mile outside the built up area of the
town and I walked to school and coming from the "country" with two
houses in a half a mile to a built up area with a house every 50 yards
I can't remember notice any bad smells.

I think that you are exaggerating.



remember that in a northern New England climate where things certainly
do freeze that what's in the woodshed has to last until spring as the
snow is too deep to get to the woods to cut more.

My grandfather used to spend a month a year cutting trees in his "wood
lot", cutting to length, splitting and hauling back to town in order
to heat his house for the winter.


We have become decadent and now buy 3-4 cords/year. I add about a cord
each year from our yard and from splitting rounds that neighbors didn't
want.


Four cords of wood is about 512 cubic feet of wood. My grand dad's
"wood shed" was a building about (from memory) 25 ft long 10 ft wide
and probably 12 feet high. He packed it, literally, to the rafters by
late September or maybe October and burned it all by spring.



NE is a very cold area of the country in winter. We and neighbors used
to get by with two cords. Then global warming ... didn't happen and now
it has crept up to about four cords. Just fired it up again.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #104  
Old November 14th 19, 11:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Basso Loto [OT]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:48:08 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/14/2019 2:14 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
:On 11/14/2019 11:38 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
: Frank Krygowski wrote:
: :On 11/13/2019 9:21 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
: : jbeattie wrote:
: :
: :
: : Don't you guys have NG?
: : https://energykinetics.com/savingshe...elcomparisons/ NG beats every
: : other fuel in terms of cost per therm and low levels of pollutants.
: :
: : -- Jay Beattie.
: :
: :
: : In the Pacific Northwest, electrically powered heat pumps rate better than
: : in New England, due to cheaper electricity rates, higher SEER due to higher
: : ambient temperatures, and zero emissions from hydroelectric dams.
:
: :That seems to make sense. I was surprised to read, several years ago,
: :that Ontario was heavily promoting heat pumps. They're not very
: :efficient at low air temperatures.
:
: There are lots of units that have an efficency of greater than 100%
: down to -14F.
:
: :https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...neer-1.4024786
:
: I'd have to see his numbers, but I expect he's under calculating the
: efficency of the heat pump.
:

:??
oes 'efficency of greater than 100%' mean you get more
:energy out than you put in?

Yes. That's how heat pumps work. They pump heat from where you don't
want it to where you do, which is more effecicent that making the heat.
In the case of an air source heat pump used for heat, that's the outside
to the inside. used for cooling, it's the other way around.


Instead of describing it as efficiency greater than 100%, it's normally
called the Coefficient of Performance. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeffi...of_performance But for heat
pumps COP is highly dependent on outside temperature. The colder it gets
outside, the worse the COP. It's analogous to pumping water up a higher
distance. It takes more work.

Heat pumps can be a good deal, especially where winters are mild and
summers are hot enough to need AC. You're paying for AC hardware
(compressor, a couple of heat exchangers, etc.) to pump heat out in
summer, so why not add a few valves to pump heat in during the winter?

I remain surprised it makes sense in a chillier place like Ontario,
where AC is much less a necessity. Seems payback period on that hardware
would be a lot longer, especially compared to inexpensive natural gas.
Not to mention tactics like super-insulation.

IIRC Carl Fogel had a heat pump and was pretty dissatisfied with it. I
don't remember why, though.


I wonder about the effectiveness of a heat pump in, oh say, Bangor,
Maine, where the temperature got so low some nights that kerosene
wouldn't flow in a pipe from the outside tank to the space heater?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #105  
Old November 15th 19, 12:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Basso Loto [OT]

On 2019-11-14 14:48, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:08 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-13 17:45, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:23:24 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-13 14:49, John B. wrote:


[...]


Perhaps, today. But when I was a boy wood fires were apparently much
better understood although no one worried about smoke in the sense of
contaminating the atmosphere but certainly in the sense that they
weren't burning the wood efficiently and therefore "wasting" wood...


I remember the not so good old days when as a cyclist I came through
small valleys or villages during winter and had to cough. There are
undoubtedly lots of people who lived there and needlessly and gruesomely
died of lung cancer because residents didn't know how to properly
operate a wood stove.

When I was a boy growing up in a northern New England town everyone
heated their house with either wood or coal, some people, my paternal
grandmother for example, were still cooking with wood, and I can't
remember any fumes floating around. Granted that 50 or 60 year old
memory is perhaps not so acute, but still, I think if the town had
been covered with a choking cloud of smoke I would have remembered it.


It's not the memory, it that you were used to it. Just like we all were
used to the fumes of car traffic while nowadays I can immediately smell
if a vintage car passing me had a stock engine or a modern one.


You just wrote, " I came through small valleys or villages during
winter and had to cough". Perhaps I should have been more explicate
and said that I don't remember ever having to ca ugh when I walked
down town.


That is because I am sensitive to exhaust byproducts. When I come back
via a county road during rush hour on my road bike I start coughing,
especially when a lot of Diesels pass by. That clears up a few minutes
after leaving that road. One of the many reasons why I prefer
well-segregated bike paths and even more so MTB trails.


As for your idea that it was because we were used to it, I think that
you are wrong. We lived about a mile outside the built up area of the
town and I walked to school and coming from the "country" with two
houses in a half a mile to a built up area with a house every 50 yards
I can't remember notice any bad smells.

I think that you are exaggerating.


No, that has been proven. People who were outdoors a lot in the 60's and
70's thought they were living in a clean environment. One generally only
notices how bad it is when being transported from A to B quickly and in
a contained environment such as an aircraft cabin or very fast train. I
had that reset happen after working in Scotland and on a North Sea oil
rig. Super clean air. When I flew back and stepped out of the aircraft
at the Cologne/Bonn airport in Germany I thought I'd stepped into a
stinky mess and that wasn't even during heavy traffic. I grew up there
and had never noticed until then.

This is also a reason why people who never smoked get lung cancer. It
just happened to a friend of ours. She lived and jogged in Los Angeles
in the 70's.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #106  
Old November 15th 19, 01:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Basso Loto [OT]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 21:55:18 +0000, David Scheidt wrote:


:Heat pumps can be a good deal, especially where winters are mild and
:summers are hot enough to need AC. You're paying for AC hardware
compressor, a couple of heat exchangers, etc.) to pump heat out in
:summer, so why not add a few valves to pump heat in during the winter?

You need to catch up. Heating with a heat pump makes sense economically
in quite a lot of the US.


Weirldy you describe the local situation, but many people here either
keep or add additional heating capacity to reverse cycle air-con
installations. It is the economics here. Electricvity as a heater is the
most expensive form and only used by the uneducated.
  #107  
Old November 15th 19, 01:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Basso Loto [OT]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 15:20:45 -0800, Joerg wrote:


No, that has been proven. People who were outdoors a lot in the 60's and
70's thought they were living in a clean environment. One generally only
notices how bad it is when being transported from A to B quickly and in
a contained environment such as an aircraft cabin or very fast train. I
had that reset happen after working in Scotland and on a North Sea oil
rig. Super clean air. When I flew back and stepped out of the aircraft
at the Cologne/Bonn airport in Germany I thought I'd stepped into a
stinky mess and that wasn't even during heavy traffic. I grew up there
and had never noticed until then.


Sound is the same. Until you have a few weeks in a really quiet place,
you might never realise how noisy your local environment is. A fact
exploited by the hearing aid industry.

This is also a reason why people who never smoked get lung cancer. It
just happened to a friend of ours. She lived and jogged in Los Angeles
in the 70's.


If "have you ever smoke" is the only question from a doctor, immediately
seek another.
  #108  
Old November 15th 19, 02:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Basso Loto [OT]

On 11/14/2019 4:55 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

:Heat pumps can be a good deal, especially where winters are mild and
:summers are hot enough to need AC. You're paying for AC hardware
compressor, a couple of heat exchangers, etc.) to pump heat out in
:summer, so why not add a few valves to pump heat in during the winter?

You need to catch up. Heating with a heat pump makes sense
economically in quite a lot of the US.

The COP of high end heat pumps is over 2 at -14F. It's over
4 at freezing. Gas is cheap these days, but very few places is it
twice as cheap as elecricity. And in much of Candada, there is no
gas, and houses are heated with resistive electric heaters. The pay
back is pretty fast.


I'm not convinced I need to "catch up." The first four or five sites I
examined seem to agree with me. For example,
https://www.homeadvisor.com/r/heat-pump-vs-furnace/
and
https://www.trane.com/residential/en...right-for-you/
and
https://www.pickhvac.com/faq/furnace...-vs-dual-fuel/

It's not just the COP. It's the life cycle cost of a gas system vs. a
heat pump, including installation costs, maintenance costs, expected
life, energy input costs, whether you need AC, etc. And some people have
claimed less personal comfort with a heat pump, probably based on lower
temperature of the circulating air.

I agree, though, it would be no contest if it were a heat pump vs.
electrical resistance heating. If gas is unavailable in much of Ontario,
that would explain government promotion of heat pumps.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #109  
Old November 15th 19, 02:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Basso Loto [OT]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 15:20:45 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-14 14:48, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:08 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-13 17:45, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:23:24 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-11-13 14:49, John B. wrote:


[...]


Perhaps, today. But when I was a boy wood fires were apparently much
better understood although no one worried about smoke in the sense of
contaminating the atmosphere but certainly in the sense that they
weren't burning the wood efficiently and therefore "wasting" wood...


I remember the not so good old days when as a cyclist I came through
small valleys or villages during winter and had to cough. There are
undoubtedly lots of people who lived there and needlessly and gruesomely
died of lung cancer because residents didn't know how to properly
operate a wood stove.

When I was a boy growing up in a northern New England town everyone
heated their house with either wood or coal, some people, my paternal
grandmother for example, were still cooking with wood, and I can't
remember any fumes floating around. Granted that 50 or 60 year old
memory is perhaps not so acute, but still, I think if the town had
been covered with a choking cloud of smoke I would have remembered it.


It's not the memory, it that you were used to it. Just like we all were
used to the fumes of car traffic while nowadays I can immediately smell
if a vintage car passing me had a stock engine or a modern one.


You just wrote, " I came through small valleys or villages during
winter and had to cough". Perhaps I should have been more explicate
and said that I don't remember ever having to ca ugh when I walked
down town.


That is because I am sensitive to exhaust byproducts. When I come back
via a county road during rush hour on my road bike I start coughing,
especially when a lot of Diesels pass by. That clears up a few minutes
after leaving that road. One of the many reasons why I prefer
well-segregated bike paths and even more so MTB trails.


As for your idea that it was because we were used to it, I think that
you are wrong. We lived about a mile outside the built up area of the
town and I walked to school and coming from the "country" with two
houses in a half a mile to a built up area with a house every 50 yards
I can't remember notice any bad smells.

I think that you are exaggerating.


No, that has been proven. People who were outdoors a lot in the 60's and
70's thought they were living in a clean environment. One generally only
notices how bad it is when being transported from A to B quickly and in
a contained environment such as an aircraft cabin or very fast train. I
had that reset happen after working in Scotland and on a North Sea oil
rig. Super clean air. When I flew back and stepped out of the aircraft
at the Cologne/Bonn airport in Germany I thought I'd stepped into a
stinky mess and that wasn't even during heavy traffic. I grew up there
and had never noticed until then.


Again I suggest that you exaggerate. I mentioned walking to school
from an environment of two houses in a half a mile to houses side by
side and never noticing anything, and you say that it was because the
change was made slowly. But yet, walking by the city block size Woolen
Mills further into town the smell was very noticeable as you walked
past.

This is also a reason why people who never smoked get lung cancer. It
just happened to a friend of ours. She lived and jogged in Los Angeles
in the 70's.


Again I believe that you exaggerate, or at least medical science says
that you do.

The Mayo Clinic, for example, says that "... lung cancer also occurs
in people who never smoked and in those who never had prolonged
exposure to secondhand smoke. In these cases, there may be no clear
cause of lung cancer."
--
cheers,

John B.

  #110  
Old November 15th 19, 04:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Basso Loto [OT]

On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:05:38 +0700, John B. wrote:


As for your idea that it was because we were used to it, I think that
you are wrong. We lived about a mile outside the built up area of the
town and I walked to school and coming from the "country" with two
houses in a half a mile to a built up area with a house every 50 yards
I can't remember notice any bad smells.

I think that you are exaggerating.


Naah, differnet noses. I'm crash hot on locating operating bakeries. some
people can not even detect the biscuit factory when they are outside the
door.

No, that has been proven. People who were outdoors a lot in the 60's and
70's thought they were living in a clean environment. One generally only
notices how bad it is when being transported from A to B quickly and in
a contained environment such as an aircraft cabin or very fast train. I
had that reset happen after working in Scotland and on a North Sea oil
rig. Super clean air. When I flew back and stepped out of the aircraft
at the Cologne/Bonn airport in Germany I thought I'd stepped into a
stinky mess and that wasn't even during heavy traffic. I grew up there
and had never noticed until then.


Again I suggest that you exaggerate. I mentioned walking to school from
an environment of two houses in a half a mile to houses side by side and
never noticing anything, and you say that it was because the change was
made slowly. But yet, walking by the city block size Woolen Mills
further into town the smell was very noticeable as you walked past.

This is also a reason why people who never smoked get lung cancer. It
just happened to a friend of ours. She lived and jogged in Los Angeles
in the 70's.


Again I believe that you exaggerate, or at least medical science says
that you do.

The Mayo Clinic, for example, says that "... lung cancer also occurs in
people who never smoked and in those who never had prolonged exposure to
secondhand smoke. In these cases, there may be no clear cause of lung
cancer."


You've just added the random disease factor, which doesn't disprove his
argument. Do you have a source of attributed causes of lung cancer? Of
course, that is only as valid as the rigourness of the data collectors.

 




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