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  #91  
Old July 31st 20, 01:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 12,012
Default Adjusting brakes

On 7/30/2020 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 10:37:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:39 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 8:22:42 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:02 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 6:53:26 AM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:

If they need to adjust it, never, ever, take it back.

What you are saying is that you do not know anything about truing a wheel. So your advice is questionable to say the least. Riding a bike, especially those with carbon wheels, beds the spoke nipples, also spoke tension bends the rim differently on a stand than on the road under the jarring of the potholes and bad roads and almost always requires a minor straightening after a hundred miles or so


That's ridiculous.
If we had to ship new wheels back here and then out again
we'd be out of business.

Mr Tosspot had it exactly right that rework means it wasn't
built well to start.



All you're saying is that your customers are willing to accept a mm or two out of true or round.


No, they would scream bloody murder[1].
And they would be right.

[1] American English translation = 'refund'


I'm having a little problem with your claim. Since I had my Madone in the shop a couple of weeks ago the owner told me to bring it back in a couple of weeks so that they could check everything and TRUE THE WHEELS. Now Robby was one of the mechanics for 7/11 when Andy Hampsten won the Giro and in those days they would build all of their own wheels. So it isn't as if he isn't familiar with wheel building. Robby's shop is called "Wheelworks"


When Mr Hampsten and his brother worked for me, they were
taught by my head wheelbuilder at the time, Mr J K Herro.
Andy knows wheels. If a wheel isn't reliable and stable for
100 miles, most classics stages are impossible. I'm not
besmirching your local shop, but 100 miles is a small
interval for a new wheel.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Ads
  #92  
Old July 31st 20, 01:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 29
Default Adjusting brakes

On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 10:22:28 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 7/30/2020 10:02 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 6:53:26 AM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:

If they need to adjust it, never, ever, take it back.


What you are saying is that you do not know anything about truing a wheel. So your advice is questionable to say the least. Riding a bike, especially those with carbon wheels, beds the spoke nipples, also spoke tension bends the rim differently on a stand than on the road under the jarring of the potholes and bad roads and almost always requires a minor straightening after a hundred miles or so


That's ridiculous.
If we had to ship new wheels back here and then out again
we'd be out of business.

Mr Tosspot had it exactly right that rework means it wasn't
built well to start.


To underwrite Andrew's statement I bent a "good" aluminum rim and in
order to avoid laying up the bike while I located another rim I went
down to my local bike shop and bought a set of the cheapest Shimano
wheels that they had in stock, came home put tires on and started
riding the bike... Now some 4 years later the damned wheels are still
straight and I've never bothered to rebuild the old wheel :-)

Cheers,
John B.
  #93  
Old July 31st 20, 07:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sepp Ruf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 373
Default Adjusting brakes

AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 10:37:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:39 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 8:22:42 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:02 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 6:53:26 AM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:

If they need to adjust it, never, ever, take it back.

What you are saying is that you do not know anything about
truing a wheel. So your advice is questionable to say the
least. Riding a bike, especially those with carbon wheels, beds
the spoke nipples, also spoke tension bends the rim differently
on a stand than on the road under the jarring of the potholes
and bad roads and almost always requires a minor straightening
after a hundred miles or so


Why would carbon wheels behave differently?

That's ridiculous. If we had to ship new wheels back here and
then out again we'd be out of business.

Mr Tosspot had it exactly right that rework means it wasn't built
well to start.



All you're saying is that your customers are willing to accept a mm
or two out of true or round.


No, they would scream bloody murder[1]. And they would be right.

[1] American English translation = 'refund'


I'm having a little problem with your claim. Since I had my Madone in
the shop a couple of weeks ago the owner told me to bring it back in a
couple of weeks so that they could check everything and TRUE THE
WHEELS. Now Robby was one of the mechanics for 7/11 when Andy Hampsten
won the Giro and in those days they would build all of their own
wheels. So it isn't as if he isn't familiar with wheel building.
Robby's shop is called "Wheelworks"


When Mr Hampsten and his brother worked for me, they were taught by my
head wheelbuilder at the time, Mr J K Herro. Andy knows wheels. If a
wheel isn't reliable and stable for 100 miles, most classics stages are
impossible. I'm not besmirching your local shop, but 100 miles is a small
interval for a new wheel.


Aren't there non-tech reasons for inviting buyers back?

* Trying to cover their behinds against any wheel-related legal nonsense

* Trying to make the customer feel grateful for "free service," especially
if his riding buddies boast that their (sloppy) shops offer "free checks and
fine-tunings" after x miles or weeks?

* Creating an opportunity to find something else to sell, fix, or tune
before the customer decides that the shop is at fault for something he
bought and is not completely pleased with?

  #94  
Old July 31st 20, 09:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,502
Default Adjusting brakes

On 30/07/2020 16.41, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/30/2020 11:22 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:02 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 6:53:26 AM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:

If they need to adjust it, never, ever, take it back.

What you are saying is that you do not know anything about truing a
wheel. So your advice is questionable to say the least. Riding a
bike, especially those with carbon wheels, beds the spoke nipples,
also spoke tension bends the rim differently on a stand than on the
road under the jarring of the potholes and bad roads and almost
always requires a minor straightening after a hundred miles or so


That's ridiculous.
If we had to ship new wheels back here and then out again we'd be out
of business.

Mr Tosspot had it exactly right that rework means it wasn't built well
to start.


I can remember having to re-true wheels in my very early days of wheel
building. Then I discovered pre-stressing the spokes, or stress
relieving them, as Jobst called it. It made a huge difference.


Exactly, I was the same, but I'm a ham-fisted amateur and even I can
build a true wheel that even in less than normal use stays true. A
tensiometer, care and a bit of practice, you can build a good wheel in
under an hour if you clear the decks, get it all set up, and a good mug
of Earl Grey on hand.
  #95  
Old July 31st 20, 09:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,502
Default Adjusting brakes

On 31/07/2020 07.49, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 10:37:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:39 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 8:22:42 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:02 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 6:53:26 AM UTC-7, Tosspot
wrote:

If they need to adjust it, never, ever, take it back.

What you are saying is that you do not know anything
about truing a wheel. So your advice is questionable to
say the least. Riding a bike, especially those with
carbon wheels, beds the spoke nipples, also spoke tension
bends the rim differently on a stand than on the road
under the jarring of the potholes and bad roads and
almost always requires a minor straightening after a
hundred miles or so


Why would carbon wheels behave differently?

That's ridiculous. If we had to ship new wheels back here
and then out again we'd be out of business.

Mr Tosspot had it exactly right that rework means it wasn't
built well to start.



All you're saying is that your customers are willing to
accept a mm or two out of true or round.


No, they would scream bloody murder[1]. And they would be
right.

[1] American English translation = 'refund'

I'm having a little problem with your claim. Since I had my
Madone in the shop a couple of weeks ago the owner told me to
bring it back in a couple of weeks so that they could check
everything and TRUE THE WHEELS. Now Robby was one of the
mechanics for 7/11 when Andy Hampsten won the Giro and in those
days they would build all of their own wheels. So it isn't as if
he isn't familiar with wheel building. Robby's shop is called
"Wheelworks"


When Mr Hampsten and his brother worked for me, they were taught by
my head wheelbuilder at the time, Mr J K Herro. Andy knows wheels.
If a wheel isn't reliable and stable for 100 miles, most classics
stages are impossible. I'm not besmirching your local shop, but 100
miles is a small interval for a new wheel.


Aren't there non-tech reasons for inviting buyers back?

* Trying to cover their behinds against any wheel-related legal
nonsense

* Trying to make the customer feel grateful for "free service,"
especially if his riding buddies boast that their (sloppy) shops
offer "free checks and fine-tunings" after x miles or weeks?

* Creating an opportunity to find something else to sell, fix, or
tune before the customer decides that the shop is at fault for
something he bought and is not completely pleased with?


I hadn't thought of this and I reckon Sepp is right. No wheel builder
advertises up front he/she is building **** wheels, it seems a likely
way of getting the customer back into the shop with the added fillip of
"Didn't I build those wheels well, they haven't budged a tenth!".

There's a reason I'm not in marketing :-(
  #96  
Old July 31st 20, 04:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Adjusting brakes

On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 5:25:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 10:37:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:39 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 8:22:42 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:02 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 6:53:26 AM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:

If they need to adjust it, never, ever, take it back.

What you are saying is that you do not know anything about truing a wheel. So your advice is questionable to say the least. Riding a bike, especially those with carbon wheels, beds the spoke nipples, also spoke tension bends the rim differently on a stand than on the road under the jarring of the potholes and bad roads and almost always requires a minor straightening after a hundred miles or so


That's ridiculous.
If we had to ship new wheels back here and then out again
we'd be out of business.

Mr Tosspot had it exactly right that rework means it wasn't
built well to start.



All you're saying is that your customers are willing to accept a mm or two out of true or round.


No, they would scream bloody murder[1].
And they would be right.

[1] American English translation = 'refund'


I'm having a little problem with your claim. Since I had my Madone in the shop a couple of weeks ago the owner told me to bring it back in a couple of weeks so that they could check everything and TRUE THE WHEELS. Now Robby was one of the mechanics for 7/11 when Andy Hampsten won the Giro and in those days they would build all of their own wheels. So it isn't as if he isn't familiar with wheel building. Robby's shop is called "Wheelworks"


When Mr Hampsten and his brother worked for me, they were
taught by my head wheelbuilder at the time, Mr J K Herro.
Andy knows wheels. If a wheel isn't reliable and stable for
100 miles, most classics stages are impossible. I'm not
besmirching your local shop, but 100 miles is a small
interval for a new wheel.


In my experience you only had to true the wheels once - after about 100 or less miles and they they remained stable for pretty much the life of the wheel unless you hit a hard pothole such as I did with my Campy Neurons. It is difficult to break a spoke without also stretching it.
  #97  
Old July 31st 20, 05:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Adjusting brakes

On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 11:49:42 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 10:37:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:39 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 8:22:42 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:02 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 6:53:26 AM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:

If they need to adjust it, never, ever, take it back.

What you are saying is that you do not know anything about
truing a wheel. So your advice is questionable to say the
least. Riding a bike, especially those with carbon wheels, beds
the spoke nipples, also spoke tension bends the rim differently
on a stand than on the road under the jarring of the potholes
and bad roads and almost always requires a minor straightening
after a hundred miles or so


Why would carbon wheels behave differently?

That's ridiculous. If we had to ship new wheels back here and
then out again we'd be out of business.

Mr Tosspot had it exactly right that rework means it wasn't built
well to start.



All you're saying is that your customers are willing to accept a mm
or two out of true or round.


No, they would scream bloody murder[1]. And they would be right.

[1] American English translation = 'refund'

I'm having a little problem with your claim. Since I had my Madone in
the shop a couple of weeks ago the owner told me to bring it back in a
couple of weeks so that they could check everything and TRUE THE
WHEELS. Now Robby was one of the mechanics for 7/11 when Andy Hampsten
won the Giro and in those days they would build all of their own
wheels. So it isn't as if he isn't familiar with wheel building.
Robby's shop is called "Wheelworks"


When Mr Hampsten and his brother worked for me, they were taught by my
head wheelbuilder at the time, Mr J K Herro. Andy knows wheels. If a
wheel isn't reliable and stable for 100 miles, most classics stages are
impossible. I'm not besmirching your local shop, but 100 miles is a small
interval for a new wheel.


Aren't there non-tech reasons for inviting buyers back?

* Trying to cover their behinds against any wheel-related legal nonsense

* Trying to make the customer feel grateful for "free service," especially
if his riding buddies boast that their (sloppy) shops offer "free checks and
fine-tunings" after x miles or weeks?

* Creating an opportunity to find something else to sell, fix, or tune
before the customer decides that the shop is at fault for something he
bought and is not completely pleased with?


The carbon fiber in the spoke bed is soft with fibers down in the bottom not being properly compressed and NOT round. So CF wheels from China at least, have widely varying spoke tensions. While you can set equal spoke tensions on an aluminum rim and the wheel will be pretty much round and true you can't do this with a CF wheel though I would some day like to check out the Zipp or Enve or Campy CF wheels. But I suspect that either they use a different molding process or they have exactly the same problems.

You will find that MOST riders don't even know that their wheels are out of true unless they are dragging on the brakes. Didn't we just see AK asking about brake adjustment when he didn't realize he had a broken spoke? This isn't something that is stupid or uncommon and most wheels sold are obtained by people with even less knowledge than AK. So a couple of mm out of true wouldn't even be noticed.

Why would you act as if people are all experienced mechanics with more highly developed senses than most people have? From his postings, dollars to donuts Frank wouldn't even notice a broken spoke if it was tearing the paint off of his chain stays.
  #98  
Old July 31st 20, 07:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 455
Default Adjusting brakes

On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 6:10:04 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 11:49:42 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 10:37:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:39 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 8:22:42 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:02 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 6:53:26 AM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:

If they need to adjust it, never, ever, take it back.

What you are saying is that you do not know anything about
truing a wheel. So your advice is questionable to say the
least. Riding a bike, especially those with carbon wheels, beds
the spoke nipples, also spoke tension bends the rim differently
on a stand than on the road under the jarring of the potholes
and bad roads and almost always requires a minor straightening
after a hundred miles or so


Why would carbon wheels behave differently?

That's ridiculous. If we had to ship new wheels back here and
then out again we'd be out of business.

Mr Tosspot had it exactly right that rework means it wasn't built
well to start.



All you're saying is that your customers are willing to accept a mm
or two out of true or round.


No, they would scream bloody murder[1]. And they would be right.

[1] American English translation = 'refund'

I'm having a little problem with your claim. Since I had my Madone in
the shop a couple of weeks ago the owner told me to bring it back in a
couple of weeks so that they could check everything and TRUE THE
WHEELS. Now Robby was one of the mechanics for 7/11 when Andy Hampsten
won the Giro and in those days they would build all of their own
wheels. So it isn't as if he isn't familiar with wheel building.
Robby's shop is called "Wheelworks"


When Mr Hampsten and his brother worked for me, they were taught by my
head wheelbuilder at the time, Mr J K Herro. Andy knows wheels. If a
wheel isn't reliable and stable for 100 miles, most classics stages are
impossible. I'm not besmirching your local shop, but 100 miles is a small
interval for a new wheel.


Aren't there non-tech reasons for inviting buyers back?

* Trying to cover their behinds against any wheel-related legal nonsense

* Trying to make the customer feel grateful for "free service," especially
if his riding buddies boast that their (sloppy) shops offer "free checks and
fine-tunings" after x miles or weeks?

* Creating an opportunity to find something else to sell, fix, or tune
before the customer decides that the shop is at fault for something he
bought and is not completely pleased with?


The carbon fiber in the spoke bed is soft with fibers down in the bottom not being properly compressed and NOT round. So CF wheels from China at least, have widely varying spoke tensions. While you can set equal spoke tensions on an aluminum rim and the wheel will be pretty much round and true you can't do this with a CF wheel though I would some day like to check out the Zipp or Enve or Campy CF wheels. But I suspect that either they use a different molding process or they have exactly the same problems.

You will find that MOST riders don't even know that their wheels are out of true unless they are dragging on the brakes. Didn't we just see AK asking about brake adjustment when he didn't realize he had a broken spoke? This isn't something that is stupid or uncommon and most wheels sold are obtained by people with even less knowledge than AK. So a couple of mm out of true wouldn't even be noticed.

Why would you act as if people are all experienced mechanics with more highly developed senses than most people have? From his postings, dollars to donuts Frank wouldn't even notice a broken spoke if it was tearing the paint off of his chain stays.


My experience with wheels with CF rims (Zipp and Campy) is that they stay true no matter what.

Lou
  #99  
Old July 31st 20, 07:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,502
Default Adjusting brakes

On 31/07/2020 19.21, Lou Holtman wrote:

snip

My experience with wheels with CF rims (Zipp and Campy) is that they
stay true no matter what.


Mine too. Get the spoke tensions even and the rim will be as straight
as it was manufactured. That might not be all that good depending, but
it will hold it's shape.
  #100  
Old July 31st 20, 08:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Adjusting brakes

On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 11:21:52 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 6:10:04 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 11:49:42 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 10:37:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:39 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 8:22:42 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/30/2020 10:02 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 6:53:26 AM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:

If they need to adjust it, never, ever, take it back.

What you are saying is that you do not know anything about
truing a wheel. So your advice is questionable to say the
least. Riding a bike, especially those with carbon wheels, beds
the spoke nipples, also spoke tension bends the rim differently
on a stand than on the road under the jarring of the potholes
and bad roads and almost always requires a minor straightening
after a hundred miles or so

Why would carbon wheels behave differently?

That's ridiculous. If we had to ship new wheels back here and
then out again we'd be out of business.

Mr Tosspot had it exactly right that rework means it wasn't built
well to start.



All you're saying is that your customers are willing to accept a mm
or two out of true or round.


No, they would scream bloody murder[1]. And they would be right.

[1] American English translation = 'refund'

I'm having a little problem with your claim. Since I had my Madone in
the shop a couple of weeks ago the owner told me to bring it back in a
couple of weeks so that they could check everything and TRUE THE
WHEELS. Now Robby was one of the mechanics for 7/11 when Andy Hampsten
won the Giro and in those days they would build all of their own
wheels. So it isn't as if he isn't familiar with wheel building.
Robby's shop is called "Wheelworks"


When Mr Hampsten and his brother worked for me, they were taught by my
head wheelbuilder at the time, Mr J K Herro. Andy knows wheels. If a
wheel isn't reliable and stable for 100 miles, most classics stages are
impossible. I'm not besmirching your local shop, but 100 miles is a small
interval for a new wheel.

Aren't there non-tech reasons for inviting buyers back?

* Trying to cover their behinds against any wheel-related legal nonsense

* Trying to make the customer feel grateful for "free service," especially
if his riding buddies boast that their (sloppy) shops offer "free checks and
fine-tunings" after x miles or weeks?

* Creating an opportunity to find something else to sell, fix, or tune
before the customer decides that the shop is at fault for something he
bought and is not completely pleased with?


The carbon fiber in the spoke bed is soft with fibers down in the bottom not being properly compressed and NOT round. So CF wheels from China at least, have widely varying spoke tensions. While you can set equal spoke tensions on an aluminum rim and the wheel will be pretty much round and true you can't do this with a CF wheel though I would some day like to check out the Zipp or Enve or Campy CF wheels. But I suspect that either they use a different molding process or they have exactly the same problems.

You will find that MOST riders don't even know that their wheels are out of true unless they are dragging on the brakes. Didn't we just see AK asking about brake adjustment when he didn't realize he had a broken spoke? This isn't something that is stupid or uncommon and most wheels sold are obtained by people with even less knowledge than AK. So a couple of mm out of true wouldn't even be noticed.

Why would you act as if people are all experienced mechanics with more highly developed senses than most people have? From his postings, dollars to donuts Frank wouldn't even notice a broken spoke if it was tearing the paint off of his chain stays.


My experience with wheels with CF rims (Zipp and Campy) is that they stay true no matter what.


And I am sure you can do that if you're willing to load the wheels for awhile before sending them out. What is your experience with equal spoke tension? I'm willing to guess that you could make a better nipple bed with much more complicated molds. But the Chinese wheels are all over the map. And with the older "plate style" "aero" spokes you cannot get a tensiometer to read correctly because the spokes are simply too stiff. Remember, a tensiometer measures the bending of the spoke while under tension so it assumes a rather weak spoke in bending.
 




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