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Will e-bikes expand cycling?



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 2nd 19, 02:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 6:03:55 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 2:33:10 PM UTC-7, Zen Cycle wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 2:12:01 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote

Now what we really need is a serious Congressional investigation into why NASA has been falsifying the temperature records. This is now to the point that they should criminally charge these people with lying under the cover of authority.

Get on it, Tom! Stop wasting your time here. Run for congress!

But the problem is a lot bigger than you've stated. It's not just NASA falsifying
data. There are dozens of countries in on the scam! They've even taking to
melting glaciers (doubtlessly using top secret technology) to convince people
of this global scam.

The world needs you to save us! Stop posting on r.b.tech about it - get out and
save the world!

- Frank Krygowski


And while he's at it may be he can convince jute to write something a publisher might be interested rather than trolling a news group every day.


Or maybe I can just simply note that not one single climate prediction has been accurate for over 40 years.


No, no, you still don't get it. Don't post that here. Put it on billboards.
Make it your campaign slogan. Broadcast it on the TV, radio, internet, and in
print.

Get out there and save the world from those who would save the world! (And
let us talk about bicycles.)

- Frank Krygowski
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  #12  
Old November 2nd 19, 03:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
pH
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Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 8:35:17 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 10:46:36 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:

There just are fewer electric bicycles. So far...

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I'm no longer so sure. I've of course heard all the talk of the coming e-bike revolution, but my own bike is now ten years old, and in that time I've seen precisely three e-bikes beside my own in a catchment are of 40-50,000 people. It is as well to describe them:

snip

Andre Jute
So how come I can't see the revolution I'm supposed to be leading?


Here in the Santa Cruz area I am seeing many more electric assist bikes.
I commuted to work for 15 years and saw virtually no electric bikes during the time...the occasional Currie-cycle.
I think what doomed those was the lead-acid technology. It would not take long for a non-battery savvy person to kill a lead acid battery.

The Li ion revolution seems to have saved the day.
So far I'm seeing bottom-bracket "pods" more than hub motors by about a 10:1 ratio.
I don't know the wattage of these things (I think that Bosch and Yamaha are the two main players...Muzi help me out here it there are popular others), but the 750 watt motor of your acquaintance/neighbor seems like it would be more than adequate, even for a Clydesdale as me.

Short answer: Lots around Santa Cruz so far. We'll see how they hold up over time.

pH

  #13  
Old November 2nd 19, 09:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On 11/1/2019 8:49 PM, pH wrote:

snip

The Li ion revolution seems to have saved the day.
So far I'm seeing bottom-bracket "pods" more than hub motors by about a 10:1 ratio.
I don't know the wattage of these things (I think that Bosch and Yamaha are the two main players...Muzi help me out here it there are popular others), but the 750 watt motor of your acquaintance/neighbor seems like it would be more than adequate, even for a Clydesdale as me.

Short answer: Lots around Santa Cruz so far. We'll see how they hold up over time.


In Silicon Valley I see far more hub motor e-bikes than mid-drive
models. Surprising if the opposite is true in Santa Cruz since a decent
mid-drive model starts at around $2000 and can be well over $4000, while
a decent hub-motor model can be found for under $1200.

You can do a retrofit for about $700 for a hub motor wheel plus a
sufficient battery while a mid-drive conversion kit is about $1500.
  #14  
Old November 2nd 19, 12:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 9,969
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 3:49:14 AM UTC, pH wrote:
On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 8:35:17 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 10:46:36 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:

There just are fewer electric bicycles. So far...

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I'm no longer so sure. I've of course heard all the talk of the coming e-bike revolution, but my own bike is now ten years old, and in that time I've seen precisely three e-bikes beside my own in a catchment are of 40-50,000 people. It is as well to describe them:

snip

Andre Jute
So how come I can't see the revolution I'm supposed to be leading?


Here in the Santa Cruz area I am seeing many more electric assist bikes.
I commuted to work for 15 years and saw virtually no electric bikes during the time...the occasional Currie-cycle.
I think what doomed those was the lead-acid technology. It would not take long for a non-battery savvy person to kill a lead acid battery.

The Li ion revolution seems to have saved the day.
So far I'm seeing bottom-bracket "pods" more than hub motors by about a 10:1 ratio.
I don't know the wattage of these things (I think that Bosch and Yamaha are the two main players...Muzi help me out here it there are popular others), but the 750 watt motor of your acquaintance/neighbor seems like it would be more than adequate, even for a Clydesdale as me.

Short answer: Lots around Santa Cruz so far. We'll see how they hold up over time.

pH


Mid motors just loom large in my mind because they're the only two I've seen on the road here, mine and the other guy's. But the electric bikes I know to be parked for good in garages are very likely all hub motors, because that's what was available back when there was a surge of interest. I too had a hub motor, as an experiment, before I installed the bottom bracket motor. I was not surprised when I burned out the hub motor in 3500 miles because I made up my mind before I installed it that a German-legal electric motor on a pedal bike is not a capital asset but an undersized consumable component with a definite if then unknown lifespan.

Scharfie's numbers are cockeyed, or else vendors saw him coming. (That wide swagger the techno-elite is unmistakable.) Bosch and perhaps others sell OEM motors with definitely legal power and crippled or low level software. It's what you get when you buy a top ride-away electric bike. In Germany you can buy an upmarket electric bike from Utopia and the other baukasten. The electric motor Utopia fits to their top, very stiff frames is very powerful for its rating, and probably long-lasting, but you pay for it and the thing is about twice as heavy as my installation on a Utopia Kranich. The software is crippled pedelec stuff, because all real Germans, and especially German cyclists and the manufacturers who cater to them, snap to attention when their lawmakers speak, and German lawmakers are responsible for a lot of the crap the rest of us cyclists have to put up with.

Smart people buy a good bike or frame, and electrify it themselves with a Bafang (also known as 8FUN, I swear I'm not making this up) BBS central motor and the very nice facia and software they supply with it, and the biggest battery they can afford. These Bafang motors run from 250W to 750W, but I don't see that any *cyclist* needs a bigger motor than 350W, because these Bafang motors are the natural successors to the BPM, also made by Bafang, which was for years the torquiest motor you could buy in any of its various size classes.

It's important to buy your motor from someone who will supply it including software untampered with. There are quite a few dealers who believe they are adjuncts to the police. They refuse to give you the thumb throttle supplied in the Bafang kit, they cripple software so that the top speed is 15mph, and, worse, so that you can't get at the nine performance settings built into the software, or the ability to have the motor give full torque regardless of pedal input. Compare the crippled software they think the law requires: When you get to a hill and your pedalling slows because of the incline, the power that the motor provides falls with your cadence. This is exactly arse about end; that is precisely when you need more power. I fitted the motor because my wife wanted to live up a hill that was too much for my heart, so if a dealer had done that to me I would have called on him to express my displeasure in person.

The other thing that is important if you do your own installation, is to buy the biggest battery you can afford. It doesn't matter that you don't need its nominal range. What matters is that the amount of oomph the motor delivers on a hill is directly related to instantaneously available current of the battery, and the bigger the battery is, the more current it has instantaneously available at any state of discharge. I call this the Coulomb rating of the battery. (The coulomb is the quantity of electricity transported in one second by a current of one ampere.) This is so important that Bafang on the fascia doesn't even give you idiot lights for the number of amp-hours left in the battery, but instead a graph that shows how much current you're drawing from the batter vs what is available: this graph doesn't move on the flat, regardless of what you demand from the battery, if it is big enough, of course, but near the top of a steep hill it starts falling fast; when it hits bottom, the motor dies (I think, I've never actually abused the battery that hard) even if the battery still shows fully charged on its own idiot light.

As I said, Scharfie's numbers are off. By about half. I fitted the Bafang centre motor, all the standard and best optional electronics, and the smallest dished chainring I could buy to preserve the Rohloff chainline, and a humongous best quality battery made with Samsung cells and EU approved control boards for charge and operation, and the cost was just over 800 euro, including carriage and all taxes, so around a thousand American dollars. I have no idea where Scharfie gets $1500 from, half more again than I spent; it must be featherbedding by his union chums.

One more thing: If you fit the smallest of the Bafang centre motors, and you aren't a kid but a responsible adult, you don't actually need a Rohloff gearbox. I had a Rohloff on the bike I wanted to convert already when I needed to electrify. NuVinci offers a very nice automatic CVT though the manual CVT is no hardship; either of those may do it if you remember to be smooth with the throttle.

Andre Jute
Hands-0n
Gotta sleep
  #15  
Old November 2nd 19, 06:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 5:55:17 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

snip

Smart people buy a good bike or frame, and electrify it themselves with a Bafang (also known as 8FUN, I swear I'm not making this up) BBS central motor and the very nice facia and software they supply with it, and the biggest battery they can afford. These Bafang motors run from 250W to 750W, but I don't see that any *cyclist* needs a bigger motor than 350W, because these Bafang motors are the natural successors to the BPM, also made by Bafang, which was for years the torquiest motor you could buy in any of its various size classes.


There is a lot of great reading to be had on "electricbike DOT com".

For instance, the latest offering from Bafang is their big, beefy, 1KW mid-drive. It can be programmed to behave like their 750watt offering to be street legal in California, but the more-robust construction is a 'good thing' for longevity for us bigger riders.
Another keen thing about Bafangs is that they have built-in controllers, so one less box to have to find a place to mount on the bike. The stock chainring that comes w/ them is 46T, but there is a popular 42T option. (Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at high rpm.)

The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as well.. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/ the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Apparently there are battery manufacturers that they recommend one *avoid* as well as the ones they say are keen and desirable (I think Samsung and Panasonic are two good ones, if memory serves.).

They have article categories for homebrew as well as the latest commercial offerings.

It seems by far and away that most of Europe seems to be limited to 250 watts, some other countries(s) I forget are 500W and I think CA is 750Watt (~1hp).



It's important to buy your motor from someone who will supply it including software untampered with. There are quite a few dealers who believe they are adjuncts to the police. They refuse to give you the thumb throttle supplied in the Bafang kit, they cripple software so that the top speed is 15mph, and, worse, so that you can't get at the nine performance settings built into the software, or the ability to have the motor give full torque regardless of pedal input. Compare the crippled software they think the law requires: When you get to a hill and your pedalling slows because of the incline, the power that the motor provides falls with your cadence. This is exactly arse about end; that is precisely when you need more power. I fitted the motor because my wife wanted to live up a hill that was too much for my heart, so if a dealer had done that to me I would have called on him to express my displeasure in person.

The other thing that is important if you do your own installation, is to buy the biggest battery you can afford. It doesn't matter that you don't need its nominal range. What matters is that the amount of oomph the motor delivers on a hill is directly related to instantaneously available current of the battery, and the bigger the battery is, the more current it has instantaneously available at any state of discharge. I call this the Coulomb rating of the battery. (The coulomb is the quantity of electricity transported in one second by a current of one ampere.) This is so important that Bafang on the fascia doesn't even give you idiot lights for the number of amp-hours left in the battery, but instead a graph that shows how much current you're drawing from the batter vs what is available: this graph doesn't move on the flat, regardless of what you demand from the battery, if it is big enough, of course, but near the top of a steep hill it starts falling fast; when it hits bottom, the motor dies (I think, I've never actually abused the battery that hard) even if the battery still shows fully charged on its own idiot light.

snip

Andre Jute
Hands-0n
Gotta sleep


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

My thinking was that the wife would be getting all the gas money and you-know-who would be the one stuck biking to work, including our exceptionally difficult out-of-code 1/4 long hill back home...so I thought a motor assist at the end of a long work day might be nice. (It was still a no-fun zig-zag up the hill in 1st gear despite the motor.)
I put it on a mountain bike that had been thrown down the hill that I happened to notice and rescue. (Novara--I think it's one of those box store brands.)
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot pedal assist.
(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

pH


  #16  
Old November 2nd 19, 09:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 6:38:01 PM UTC, wrote:

A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

My thinking was that the wife would be getting all the gas money and you-know-who would be the one stuck biking to work, including our exceptionally difficult out-of-code 1/4 long hill back home...so I thought a motor assist at the end of a long work day might be nice. (It was still a no-fun zig-zag up the hill in 1st gear despite the motor.)


This is why I'm so keen on a motor with hefty torque.

Thanks for the link, which I've saved to read on my treadmill (I live in Ireland where it is often wet and cold in the winter).

Andre Jute
$A5 per gallon of petrol -- we should be so lucky!
  #17  
Old November 2nd 19, 11:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
pH
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Posts: 77
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 5:55:17 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

snip


I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot pedal assist.
(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

pH


A follow-up to my own post...
The electric assist bike now lives up in Napa to use when I'm visiting my Mom. I still ride "normal" bikes in general, my good old '80s Cannondale touring bike and a recumbent Easy Racer.

When I rode to Trader Joes today I saw only 1 assist bike, a mid drive. Lots of "normal" bikes today. I'll try to keep a count of what I see over a week and report later.

pH
  #18  
Old November 3rd 19, 01:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 12:37:44 AM UTC+1, pH wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 5:55:17 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

snip


I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot pedal assist.
(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

pH


A follow-up to my own post...
The electric assist bike now lives up in Napa to use when I'm visiting my Mom. I still ride "normal" bikes in general, my good old '80s Cannondale touring bike and a recumbent Easy Racer.

When I rode to Trader Joes today I saw only 1 assist bike, a mid drive. Lots of "normal" bikes today. I'll try to keep a count of what I see over a week and report later.

pH


When I would sit on the sidewalk on a nice day along a popular route about 7 out of 10 non road bikes or ATB bikes that pass are electric assisted. It is an epidemic here in the Netherlands. So to the question 'does E-bikes expand cycling?' Definitely!


Lou
  #19  
Old November 3rd 19, 02:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 5:10:12 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 12:37:44 AM UTC+1, pH wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 5:55:17 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

snip


I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot pedal assist.
(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

pH


A follow-up to my own post...
The electric assist bike now lives up in Napa to use when I'm visiting my Mom. I still ride "normal" bikes in general, my good old '80s Cannondale touring bike and a recumbent Easy Racer.

When I rode to Trader Joes today I saw only 1 assist bike, a mid drive. Lots of "normal" bikes today. I'll try to keep a count of what I see over a week and report later.

pH


When I would sit on the sidewalk on a nice day along a popular route about 7 out of 10 non road bikes or ATB bikes that pass are electric assisted. It is an epidemic here in the Netherlands. So to the question 'does E-bikes expand cycling?' Definitely!


eBiking expands eBiking which resembles cycling but isn't. For many, it's just a way of beating traffic -- and all you have to do is move your legs around, simulate cylcing, and you can go 25-30mph in a bike lane -- up hill. Half the eBikes I see around here are basically eMotorcycles and should be in traffic and not in bike lanes.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #20  
Old November 3rd 19, 06:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,109
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On 11/3/2019 6:20 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

eBiking expands eBiking which resembles cycling but isn't. For many, it's just a way of beating traffic -- and all you have to do is move your legs around, simulate cylcing, and you can go 25-30mph in a bike lane -- up hill. Half the eBikes I see around here are basically eMotorcycles and should be in traffic and not in bike lanes.


True. They are taking advantage of the bicycle infrastructure to avoid
congestion. But as long as they aren't going 25MPH on an MUP, I think
that it's okay.
 




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