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  #1  
Old July 21st 20, 12:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Default Tire width

I think we had this discussion before but it is time to revisit it. I have been riding Vittoria Corse G+ 25 mm tires. Somehow I had gotten the idea that these were faster than the 28 mm tires I had been using 5 or so years ago. Well, Since I have been switching over to clinchers again I got a set of Michelin Power 28 mm clinchers.

There is a sharp descent and a long slightly downhill section I travel on regularly. There is a radar speed limit sign on this route so that I can double check my speedo. My speed through this rough area is normally 24 mph on the sign and about that on my speedo. I just changed over to the 28 mm tires and did that section and the radar reported 26 mph through this section. And the fatter tires at a 10 psi less inflation pressure rode so much smoother that I cannot for the life of me remember why I changed to the 25's.

Before I had 23's on my Time and you simply could not ride that Time with 23's on it unless you had a butt of cast iron. When I changed to the 28's on the Time it was and entirely different bike.

As you probably know, I am 6'4" and 190 lbs so I'm sure there is some dividing point though I don't know where that might be since the Tour riders are using 26 mm sew-up tires on their bikes. But I can tell you I won't make that mistake again and I will be riding 28's from now on.
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  #2  
Old July 21st 20, 01:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 11,996
Default Tire width

On 7/20/2020 6:34 PM, wrote:
I think we had this discussion before but it is time to revisit it. I have been riding Vittoria Corse G+ 25 mm tires. Somehow I had gotten the idea that these were faster than the 28 mm tires I had been using 5 or so years ago. Well, Since I have been switching over to clinchers again I got a set of Michelin Power 28 mm clinchers.

There is a sharp descent and a long slightly downhill section I travel on regularly. There is a radar speed limit sign on this route so that I can double check my speedo. My speed through this rough area is normally 24 mph on the sign and about that on my speedo. I just changed over to the 28 mm tires and did that section and the radar reported 26 mph through this section. And the fatter tires at a 10 psi less inflation pressure rode so much smoother that I cannot for the life of me remember why I changed to the 25's.

Before I had 23's on my Time and you simply could not ride that Time with 23's on it unless you had a butt of cast iron. When I changed to the 28's on the Time it was and entirely different bike.

As you probably know, I am 6'4" and 190 lbs so I'm sure there is some dividing point though I don't know where that might be since the Tour riders are using 26 mm sew-up tires on their bikes. But I can tell you I won't make that mistake again and I will be riding 28's from now on.



I don't know but there are more factors such as ambient air
pressure and humidity, wind etc. Also new tires are
definitely faster than worn (flat center) tires.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #3  
Old July 21st 20, 03:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 9,965
Default Tire width

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 1:10:44 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/20/2020 6:34 PM, wrote:
I think we had this discussion before but it is time to revisit it. I have been riding Vittoria Corse G+ 25 mm tires. Somehow I had gotten the idea that these were faster than the 28 mm tires I had been using 5 or so years ago. Well, Since I have been switching over to clinchers again I got a set of Michelin Power 28 mm clinchers.

There is a sharp descent and a long slightly downhill section I travel on regularly. There is a radar speed limit sign on this route so that I can double check my speedo. My speed through this rough area is normally 24 mph on the sign and about that on my speedo. I just changed over to the 28 mm tires and did that section and the radar reported 26 mph through this section. And the fatter tires at a 10 psi less inflation pressure rode so much smoother that I cannot for the life of me remember why I changed to the 25's.

Before I had 23's on my Time and you simply could not ride that Time with 23's on it unless you had a butt of cast iron. When I changed to the 28's on the Time it was and entirely different bike.

As you probably know, I am 6'4" and 190 lbs so I'm sure there is some dividing point though I don't know where that might be since the Tour riders are using 26 mm sew-up tires on their bikes. But I can tell you I won't make that mistake again and I will be riding 28's from now on.



I don't know but there are more factors such as ambient air
pressure and humidity, wind etc. Also new tires are
definitely faster than worn (flat center) tires.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Not just a lot of factors, some of them of lesser importance than generally thought in cycling, some important only when weighed against the circumscribed power the rider can deliver through the pedals, but some counterintuitive to common sense (particularly in rolling resistance), and the huge amount of simply wrong street corner information purveys as gospel in cycling. (When I arrived on RBT I was amazed at the crap people who claimed to be engineers spouted on a TECH group. Some of the dealers then here also seemed to believe they had a god-given right to ask money for being stupid.)

Of course, I think of 25mm tyres as arse-splitters. A comfortable tyre starts at 50mm and is definitely adequate at 60mm, if designed for low pressure operation, which basically means it must have extremely flexible sidewalls and a stiff rolling surface until well over the shoulder to allow for all likely angles in cornering. On a bicycle tyre, where rolling resistance is thought to be important (I've never seen a truly convincing demonstration of rolling resistance being important outside the very top echelons of racing), it is fortunate that the general stiffening of anti-puncture bands are already "priced-in" not only to the money but the weight budget of the bike, because that Kevlar weighs plenty, yet without it the tyre will generally not work as a comfort generator because it also enables the low-pressure operation.

But regardless of what you define as a narrow or a wide tyre, for a roadie there's little sense in going wider unless he is also able to lower inflation pressure, because without the comfort and possibly lower rolling resistance that additional width and lower pressure in a correctly designed tyre can bring, there is no point in the extra cost and weight of a wider tyre. This assumes of course that the tyre isn't stupidly narrow to start with, a rolling blade rather than a suspension medium.

Sounds to me like you're heading to a golden meeting of bum with bike, Tom. I had the opportunity a few years ago on a manufacturer's site to see a whole bunch of serious cyclists, who'd believed the nonsense about narrow tyres, being convinced that wider tyres were better tyres not just for touring but for everyday sports cycling. It was an education.

Andre Jute
Hedonist
  #4  
Old July 21st 20, 04:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 9,166
Default Tire width

On 7/20/2020 8:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/20/2020 6:34 PM, wrote:
I think we had this discussion before but it is time to revisit it. I
have been riding Vittoria Corse G+ 25 mm tires. Somehow I had gotten
the idea that these were faster than the 28 mm tires I had been using
5 or so years ago. Well, Since I have been switching over to clinchers
again I got a set of Michelin Power 28 mm clinchers.

There is a sharp descent and a long slightly downhill section I travel
on regularly. There is a radar speed limit sign on this route so that
I can double check my speedo. My speed through this rough area is
normally 24 mph on the sign and about that on my speedo. I just
changed over to the 28 mm tires and did that section and the radar
reported 26 mph through this section. And the fatter tires at a 10 psi
less inflation pressure rode so much smoother that I cannot for the
life of me remember why I changed to the 25's.

Before I had 23's on my Time and you simply could not ride that Time
with 23's on it unless you had a butt of cast iron. When I changed to
the 28's on the Time it was and entirely different bike.

As you probably know, I am 6'4" and 190 lbs so I'm sure there is some
dividing point though I don't know where that might be since the Tour
riders are using 26 mm sew-up tires on their bikes. But I can tell you
I won't make that mistake again and I will be riding 28's from now on.



I don't know but there are more factors such as ambient air pressure and
humidity, wind etc. Also new tires are definitely faster than worn (flat
center) tires.


I wonder if there's data proving that. It's the kind of thing that's
really ripe for the placebo effect: "I put on new tires and they're SO
much better!"

Sort of related: I remember way back when some tires were sold with a
narrower center belt of rubber that protruded farther than the rest of
the tread surface. That center stripe might have been about 10mm wide on
a 32mm tire. As I recall, they were claimed to reduce rolling
resistance. It may have been Jobst who showed they increased it instead.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #5  
Old July 21st 20, 04:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,000
Default Tire width

On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 11:10:32 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/20/2020 8:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/20/2020 6:34 PM, wrote:
I think we had this discussion before but it is time to revisit it. I
have been riding Vittoria Corse G+ 25 mm tires. Somehow I had gotten
the idea that these were faster than the 28 mm tires I had been using
5 or so years ago. Well, Since I have been switching over to clinchers
again I got a set of Michelin Power 28 mm clinchers.

There is a sharp descent and a long slightly downhill section I travel
on regularly. There is a radar speed limit sign on this route so that
I can double check my speedo. My speed through this rough area is
normally 24 mph on the sign and about that on my speedo. I just
changed over to the 28 mm tires and did that section and the radar
reported 26 mph through this section. And the fatter tires at a 10 psi
less inflation pressure rode so much smoother that I cannot for the
life of me remember why I changed to the 25's.

Before I had 23's on my Time and you simply could not ride that Time
with 23's on it unless you had a butt of cast iron. When I changed to
the 28's on the Time it was and entirely different bike.

As you probably know, I am 6'4" and 190 lbs so I'm sure there is some
dividing point though I don't know where that might be since the Tour
riders are using 26 mm sew-up tires on their bikes. But I can tell you
I won't make that mistake again and I will be riding 28's from now on.



I don't know but there are more factors such as ambient air pressure and
humidity, wind etc. Also new tires are definitely faster than worn (flat
center) tires.


I wonder if there's data proving that. It's the kind of thing that's
really ripe for the placebo effect: "I put on new tires and they're SO
much better!"

Sort of related: I remember way back when some tires were sold with a
narrower center belt of rubber that protruded farther than the rest of
the tread surface. That center stripe might have been about 10mm wide on
a 32mm tire. As I recall, they were claimed to reduce rolling
resistance. It may have been Jobst who showed they increased it instead.

--
- Frank Krygowski


And they made/make leaning a bike way over in a tight corner rather interesting.

Cheers
  #6  
Old July 21st 20, 06:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
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Posts: 453
Default Tire width

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 5:10:32 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/20/2020 8:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/20/2020 6:34 PM, wrote:
I think we had this discussion before but it is time to revisit it. I
have been riding Vittoria Corse G+ 25 mm tires. Somehow I had gotten
the idea that these were faster than the 28 mm tires I had been using
5 or so years ago. Well, Since I have been switching over to clinchers
again I got a set of Michelin Power 28 mm clinchers.

There is a sharp descent and a long slightly downhill section I travel
on regularly. There is a radar speed limit sign on this route so that
I can double check my speedo. My speed through this rough area is
normally 24 mph on the sign and about that on my speedo. I just
changed over to the 28 mm tires and did that section and the radar
reported 26 mph through this section. And the fatter tires at a 10 psi
less inflation pressure rode so much smoother that I cannot for the
life of me remember why I changed to the 25's.

Before I had 23's on my Time and you simply could not ride that Time
with 23's on it unless you had a butt of cast iron. When I changed to
the 28's on the Time it was and entirely different bike.

As you probably know, I am 6'4" and 190 lbs so I'm sure there is some
dividing point though I don't know where that might be since the Tour
riders are using 26 mm sew-up tires on their bikes. But I can tell you
I won't make that mistake again and I will be riding 28's from now on.



I don't know but there are more factors such as ambient air pressure and
humidity, wind etc. Also new tires are definitely faster than worn (flat
center) tires.


I wonder if there's data proving that. It's the kind of thing that's
really ripe for the placebo effect: "I put on new tires and they're SO
much better!"

Sort of related: I remember way back when some tires were sold with a
narrower center belt of rubber that protruded farther than the rest of
the tread surface. That center stripe might have been about 10mm wide on
a 32mm tire. As I recall, they were claimed to reduce rolling
resistance. It may have been Jobst who showed they increased it instead.

--
- Frank Krygowski


I ignore all claims comparing different tire widths if the tires are not the same make and type. Let alone the riding conditions and fitness. That is ridiculous.

Lou
  #7  
Old July 21st 20, 06:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Tire width

On Monday, July 20, 2020 at 5:10:44 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/20/2020 6:34 PM, wrote:
I think we had this discussion before but it is time to revisit it. I have been riding Vittoria Corse G+ 25 mm tires. Somehow I had gotten the idea that these were faster than the 28 mm tires I had been using 5 or so years ago. Well, Since I have been switching over to clinchers again I got a set of Michelin Power 28 mm clinchers.

There is a sharp descent and a long slightly downhill section I travel on regularly. There is a radar speed limit sign on this route so that I can double check my speedo. My speed through this rough area is normally 24 mph on the sign and about that on my speedo. I just changed over to the 28 mm tires and did that section and the radar reported 26 mph through this section. And the fatter tires at a 10 psi less inflation pressure rode so much smoother that I cannot for the life of me remember why I changed to the 25's.

Before I had 23's on my Time and you simply could not ride that Time with 23's on it unless you had a butt of cast iron. When I changed to the 28's on the Time it was and entirely different bike.

As you probably know, I am 6'4" and 190 lbs so I'm sure there is some dividing point though I don't know where that might be since the Tour riders are using 26 mm sew-up tires on their bikes. But I can tell you I won't make that mistake again and I will be riding 28's from now on.



I don't know but there are more factors such as ambient air
pressure and humidity, wind etc. Also new tires are
definitely faster than worn (flat center) tires.


The Vittoria tires show no flat spots and are reportedly the tires with the lowest rolling resistance. It is my opinion that it has to do with the elimination of the vertical motion of the bike from the wider more compliant tires on this poor roads.

The Michelin tires are not known for low rolling resistance.
  #8  
Old July 21st 20, 07:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Tire width

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 10:35:04 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 5:10:32 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/20/2020 8:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/20/2020 6:34 PM, wrote:
I think we had this discussion before but it is time to revisit it. I
have been riding Vittoria Corse G+ 25 mm tires. Somehow I had gotten
the idea that these were faster than the 28 mm tires I had been using
5 or so years ago. Well, Since I have been switching over to clinchers
again I got a set of Michelin Power 28 mm clinchers.

There is a sharp descent and a long slightly downhill section I travel
on regularly. There is a radar speed limit sign on this route so that
I can double check my speedo. My speed through this rough area is
normally 24 mph on the sign and about that on my speedo. I just
changed over to the 28 mm tires and did that section and the radar
reported 26 mph through this section. And the fatter tires at a 10 psi
less inflation pressure rode so much smoother that I cannot for the
life of me remember why I changed to the 25's.

Before I had 23's on my Time and you simply could not ride that Time
with 23's on it unless you had a butt of cast iron. When I changed to
the 28's on the Time it was and entirely different bike.

As you probably know, I am 6'4" and 190 lbs so I'm sure there is some
dividing point though I don't know where that might be since the Tour
riders are using 26 mm sew-up tires on their bikes. But I can tell you
I won't make that mistake again and I will be riding 28's from now on.

  #9  
Old July 21st 20, 08:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 453
Default Tire width

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 8:07:06 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 10:35:04 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 5:10:32 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/20/2020 8:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/20/2020 6:34 PM, wrote:
I think we had this discussion before but it is time to revisit it.. I
have been riding Vittoria Corse G+ 25 mm tires. Somehow I had gotten
the idea that these were faster than the 28 mm tires I had been using
5 or so years ago. Well, Since I have been switching over to clinchers
again I got a set of Michelin Power 28 mm clinchers.

There is a sharp descent and a long slightly downhill section I travel
on regularly. There is a radar speed limit sign on this route so that
I can double check my speedo. My speed through this rough area is
normally 24 mph on the sign and about that on my speedo. I just
changed over to the 28 mm tires and did that section and the radar
reported 26 mph through this section. And the fatter tires at a 10 psi
less inflation pressure rode so much smoother that I cannot for the
life of me remember why I changed to the 25's.

Before I had 23's on my Time and you simply could not ride that Time
with 23's on it unless you had a butt of cast iron. When I changed to
the 28's on the Time it was and entirely different bike.

As you probably know, I am 6'4" and 190 lbs so I'm sure there is some
dividing point though I don't know where that might be since the Tour
riders are using 26 mm sew-up tires on their bikes. But I can tell you
I won't make that mistake again and I will be riding 28's from now on.



I don't know but there are more factors such as ambient air pressure and
humidity, wind etc. Also new tires are definitely faster than worn (flat
center) tires.

I wonder if there's data proving that. It's the kind of thing that's
really ripe for the placebo effect: "I put on new tires and they're SO
much better!"

Sort of related: I remember way back when some tires were sold with a
narrower center belt of rubber that protruded farther than the rest of
the tread surface. That center stripe might have been about 10mm wide on
a 32mm tire. As I recall, they were claimed to reduce rolling
resistance. It may have been Jobst who showed they increased it instead.

--
- Frank Krygowski


I ignore all claims comparing different tire widths if the tires are not the same make and type. Let alone the riding conditions and fitness. That is ridiculous.

Lou


Up to a point I agree with you. But the place where the radar speed sign is I have often gone by it and I am quite familiar with the speed I normally get there on several different bikes. And they are all comparable. In is in a canyon that blocks a great deal of the wind except at the very top of the climb.

Talking about same brand and model of tires is ridiculous when we have tire rolling resistance tests that show that my slower speeds were on faster tires. And high speeds on a slower tire. We know that the pro racers who are much smaller and lighter than I am are using tires much wider for their weight than I was doing.

I noticed this same rather surprising increase in speeds several years ago and wrote about it then. Again, I'm pretty convinced that it has to do with the vertical compliance instead of the rolling resistance. I will keep an eye on it and see. Do you think it could be that clinchers somehow roll faster than tubeless? Regardless of the various tests I didn't see any real decrease in rolling resistance with Tubeless so it must be pretty small.


At the moment I'm trying to compare Continental GP 5000 25 mm tires (7 bar pressure) on my Canyon Aeroad (7.2 kg) with Continental GP 5000 32 mm tires (5 bar pressure) on my Moots gravel bike (9.2 kg) both on the same Zipp rims. After several rides I still can't draw any conclusions. I only noticed and surprised that I am pretty fast on that tank of a gravel bike with aerodynamics of a hippo. I'm very pleased with that.

Lou
  #10  
Old July 21st 20, 08:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,108
Default Tire width

On 7/21/2020 12:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

snip

At the moment I'm trying to compare Continental GP 5000 25 mm tires (7 bar pressure) on my Canyon Aeroad (7.2 kg) with Continental GP 5000 32 mm tires (5 bar pressure) on my Moots gravel bike (9.2 kg) both on the same Zipp rims. After several rides I still can't draw any conclusions. I only noticed and surprised that I am pretty fast on that tank of a gravel bike with aerodynamics of a hippo. I'm very pleased with that.


I wish the manufacturers would also specify tire height. On road
bicycles with caliper brakes and limited clearance the height matters.
 




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