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LBS owner's essay



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 2nd 20, 07:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sepp Ruf
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Posts: 373
Default LBS owner's essay

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/1/2020 5:48 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote: On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 5:45:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:

When I needed a replacement 10.5mm x 26 TPI nut for an SRAM 3x7 hub


Anyone surprised that SMS did not care to look up the part# or the specs in
the SRAM manuals?

SRAM Part # 65 0516 003 100 Axle Nut FG10,5
65 0516 107 000 Axle Cap Nut FG10,5

I first drove to 4 local shops. Forget it. One shop knew what I was
talking about at least. Ordered it from YOUR shop. I wasn't trying
to save money by ordering it, I just wanted the darn part and no LBS
could help me. Later I found one LBS that had the "close enough"
13/32 x 26 TPI Sturmey-Archer axle nuts (that shop is now out of
business).


Because SMS, the pathetically cheap Walmart + China shopper, and his "smart"
constituents, assume that an LBS can survive on selling a few, somewhat
exotic, axle nuts a year, preferably stocked, to lazy cagers who smugly feel
as if they are "supporting their LBS" by their grandiose spare nut purchases?

Neither a 1.0 metric nor a 26tpi gauge fits exactly on those axles and
Sachs/SRAM doesn't state the thread. Even if you decided that 'something
close' would do, there are no m11x1.0 nuts in common use anywhere, not
autos, not McMaster-Carr or what have you.


From the SRAM techmanual gearhubsystems pdf (archive):
Axle - Ends Diameter - FG 10,5

(FG = Fahrradgewinde)

Your old Winkler-Rauch (book) has all the data on it:
Steigung 0,977; Flankenwinkel 60°;
Außendurchmesser 10,444; Flankendurchmesser 9,924; Kerndurchmesser 9,404;
Gangzahl pro Zoll 26; Gewindetiefe 0,520; Gewinderundung 0,163


I do think it's strange that they settled on non-standard threading for
such a simple part. Despite claims, it can't be for reasons of strength.


Just because Frank Krygowski (or some lean-brained, Chicago corn trader MBA
bozo at SRAM, excuse my Polish), "thinks" a part is non-standard does not
mean it really is not.

Andrew, any clue why they would have done that?


When they decided that the usual, thinner FG9,5 rear hub axles weren't
strong enough for the growing O.L.D. of gear hubs, somewhere past the 2sp
IGH era.

Vaguely related: I'm in the habit of stripping fasteners or other
potentially useful bits out of devices I'm discarding. So I've got
several small drawers of 1/4-20 sorted by length, a small drawer of
5mmx0.8 stuff, one of 6mmx1, etc.

And I've got a small drawer marked "Metric Misc." which is mostly
fasteners that really shouldn't exist. They don't fit any standard I can
find.


As mentioned above, it might not be the (British, or DIN 79012, or whatever)
standards' fault.
https://www.fahrradmonteur.de/Fahrradgewinde
Ads
  #22  
Old August 2nd 20, 04:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,174
Default LBS owner's essay

On 8/2/2020 2:25 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/1/2020 5:48 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote: On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 5:45:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:

When I needed a replacement 10.5mm x 26 TPI nut for an SRAM 3x7 hub

Anyone surprised that SMS did not care to look up the part# or the specs in
the SRAM manuals?

SRAM Part # 65 0516 003 100 Axle Nut FG10,5
65 0516 107 000 Axle Cap Nut FG10,5

I first drove to 4 local shops. Forget it. One shop knew what I was
talking about at least. Ordered it from YOUR shop. I wasn't trying
to save money by ordering it, I just wanted the darn part and no LBS
could help me. Later I found one LBS that had the "close enough"
13/32 x 26 TPI Sturmey-Archer axle nuts (that shop is now out of
business).

Because SMS, the pathetically cheap Walmart + China shopper, and his "smart"
constituents, assume that an LBS can survive on selling a few, somewhat
exotic, axle nuts a year, preferably stocked, to lazy cagers who smugly feel
as if they are "supporting their LBS" by their grandiose spare nut purchases?

Neither a 1.0 metric nor a 26tpi gauge fits exactly on those axles and
Sachs/SRAM doesn't state the thread. Even if you decided that 'something
close' would do, there are no m11x1.0 nuts in common use anywhere, not
autos, not McMaster-Carr or what have you.

From the SRAM techmanual gearhubsystems pdf (archive):
Axle - Ends Diameter - FG 10,5

(FG = Fahrradgewinde)

Your old Winkler-Rauch (book) has all the data on it:
Steigung 0,977; Flankenwinkel 60°;
Außendurchmesser 10,444; Flankendurchmesser 9,924; Kerndurchmesser 9,404;
Gangzahl pro Zoll 26; Gewindetiefe 0,520; Gewinderundung 0,163


I do think it's strange that they settled on non-standard threading for
such a simple part. Despite claims, it can't be for reasons of strength.


Just because Frank Krygowski (or some lean-brained, Chicago corn trader MBA
bozo at SRAM, excuse my Polish), "thinks" a part is non-standard does not
mean it really is not.


I've got no problem with non-standard _parts_. I do have a problem with
non-standard _threads_. Threading standards have been pretty stable for
many, many decades.


Andrew, any clue why they would have done that?


When they decided that the usual, thinner FG9,5 rear hub axles weren't
strong enough for the growing O.L.D. of gear hubs, somewhere past the 2sp
IGH era.


So was there a specific reason they couldn't go with 12mm threads? (See
"Preferred Sizes" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread

I recently worked on an old Shimano 3 speed hub. The left side of the
axle had a larger diameter where it entered the hub, and a smaller
diameter where it passed through the dropouts. I assume this is for
adequate strength at the bearing, yet fitting standard dropouts.

Of course, these days "standard dropout" is probably an archaic term.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #23  
Old August 2nd 20, 04:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,012
Default LBS owner's essay

On 8/1/2020 6:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/1/2020 5:48 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote: On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 5:45:42 PM
UTC-7, sms wrote:

When I needed a replacement 10.5mm x 26 TPI nut for an
SRAM 3x7 hub


Anyone surprised that SMS did not care to look up the
part# or the specs in
the SRAM manuals?

SRAM Part # 65 0516 003 100 Axle Nut FG10,5
65 0516 107 000 Axle Cap Nut FG10,5

I first drove to 4 local shops. Forget it. One shop
knew what I was
talking about at least. Ordered it from YOUR shop. I
wasn't trying
to save money by ordering it, I just wanted the darn
part and no LBS
could help me. Later I found one LBS that had the
"close enough"
13/32 x 26 TPI Sturmey-Archer axle nuts (that shop is
now out of
business).


Because SMS, the pathetically cheap Walmart + China
shopper, and his "smart"
constituents, assume that an LBS can survive on selling a
few, somewhat
exotic, axle nuts a year, preferably stocked, to lazy
cagers who smugly feel
as if they are "supporting their LBS" by their grandiose
spare nut purchases?

Neither a 1.0 metric nor a 26tpi gauge fits exactly on
those axles and
Sachs/SRAM doesn't state the thread. Even if you decided
that 'something
close' would do, there are no m11x1.0 nuts in common use
anywhere, not
autos, not McMaster-Carr or what have you.


From the SRAM techmanual gearhubsystems pdf (archive):
Axle - Ends Diameter - FG 10,5

(FG = Fahrradgewinde)

Your old Winkler-Rauch (book) has all the data on it:
Steigung 0,977; Flankenwinkel 60°;
Außendurchmesser 10,444; Flankendurchmesser 9,924;
Kerndurchmesser 9,404;
Gangzahl pro Zoll 26; Gewindetiefe 0,520; Gewinderundung
0,163


I do think it's strange that they settled on non-standard
threading for such a simple part. Despite claims, it can't
be for reasons of strength.

Andrew, any clue why they would have done that?

Vaguely related: I'm in the habit of stripping fasteners or
other potentially useful bits out of devices I'm discarding.
So I've got several small drawers of 1/4-20 sorted by
length, a small drawer of 5mmx0.8 stuff, one of 6mmx1, etc.

And I've got a small drawer marked "Metric Misc." which is
mostly fasteners that really shouldn't exist. They don't fit
any standard I can find.

- Frank Krygowski


Japanese and German (JIS and DIN) metric m5 are 0.8 which
are the overwhelming bulk of hardware now. French metric m5
are 0.9. There are more variants in other sizes and places.

As Mr Brown noted, standards are wonderful, which is why we
have so many.

Lest you scorn 'them foreigners', AF/AC, UNF/UNC, SAE and so
on.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #24  
Old August 2nd 20, 08:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,109
Default LBS owner's essay

On 8/1/2020 2:48 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

snip

Because SMS, the pathetically cheap Walmart + China shopper, and his "smart"
constituents, assume that an LBS can survive on selling a few, somewhat
exotic, axle nuts a year, preferably stocked, to lazy cagers who smugly feel
as if they are "supporting their LBS" by their grandiose spare nut purchases?


Wow, you're really a piece of work.

It's _because_ I know that most LBSes can't be bothered to sell esoteric
parts and accessories that I have no problem ordering them Yellow Jersey
or from eBay sellers (there was one eBay seller, Aaron's Bicycle Repair,
which specializes in internal hub repair, that also sold that particular
nut for way more than Andrew charged). I think that it's great that a
brick and mortar store also has a robust online business, it's a great
way for them to survive.

By the same token, an LBS that doesn't stock things like axle nuts which
have been used on a LOT of bicycles, really can't complain about a
customer getting into the habit of assuming that the shop has little
interest in anything than selling current-model bicycles, clothing, and
whatever the highest margin accessories are.

We had a local store that was a Trek Tied Shop. It was really annoying
to go in there to buy accessories because almost everything they sold
was one of Trek's brands and these were rarely the best product in that
category. If I wanted a Blackburn rack they insisted that the Trek rack
was better. If I wanted a Cateye light, they insisted that the Trek
light was better. If I wanted Schwalbe tires then they insisted
Bontrager was better. It was like listening to a car salesman. I ordered
a replacement wheel there once, and it came from QBP and they didn't
even look at it prior to handing it to me. When I asked if they had
checked it to see if it was true they looked annoyed but they took it
back to the shop to true it. That store closed about three years ago.

I doubt if any LBS is upset about people ordering items that most LBSes
would not be interested in stocking because they sell in such low
volumes and have so many different variations.

Tom is probably now heading off to Ace Hardware where he will be in
shock that they have no 10.5mm/26TPI nuts.

For complete bicycles of course I buy them from an LBS. Looking back at
my bicycle-purchasing history since being out on my own, 15 bicycles
purchased from LBS or store with full service bicycle department, 3
direct from the manufacturer.

Disclaimer: in college, around 1975, I did purchase a 3 speed Columbia
bicycle from Woolco (Woolworth's) department store.
  #25  
Old August 2nd 20, 08:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,109
Default LBS owner's essay

On 8/1/2020 2:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

The unique axle thread discussed here is on Sachs Super Seven and P5
besides other products:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/suprsevn.html


I thought that the SRAM Dual Drive was a very elegant design, especially
suited for folding bicycles. You could get full range of gears without
the need for a front derailleur. Now, with 11 x 1 and 12 x 1 gearing
there's less of a need for that level of expense and complexity, though
on small-wheeled folders there would still be an advantage.
  #26  
Old August 2nd 20, 08:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,109
Default LBS owner's essay

On 8/1/2020 6:10 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Really, you expect a shop to carry an axle bolt that is rare even on the interweb? I could understand your complaint if they didn't have a standard inner-tube, but I would expect a shop to order some Dodo bird part from the manufacturer or some distributor and not keeping it in stock, waiting for that one guy with a SRAM leisure hub -- who somehow LOST a hub nut -- to come into the shop. Its not like a wear item.


Because it was widely used I would expect a long-time store to have some
in their shop. Andrew's store had them. And to be fair, at least
Off-Ramp had the somewhat compatible Sturmey-Archer nuts that Sheldon
said could be used in a pinch.

But the point I was making is that an LBS can't get upset when you order
stuff online that they have no interest in selling anyway.
  #27  
Old August 2nd 20, 08:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,109
Default LBS owner's essay

On 8/1/2020 6:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 1, 2020 at 6:10:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:


snip

Really, you expect a shop to carry an axle bolt that is rare even on the interweb? I could understand your complaint if they didn't have a standard inner-tube, but I would expect a shop to order some Dodo bird part from the manufacturer or some distributor and not keeping it in stock, waiting for that one guy with a SRAM leisure hub -- who somehow LOST a hub nut -- to come into the shop. Its not like a wear item.

-- Jay Beattie.


Make that an axle nut.


Didn't lose it. It was cracked.
  #28  
Old August 2nd 20, 10:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,985
Default LBS owner's essay

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 12:27:11 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 8/1/2020 6:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 1, 2020 at 6:10:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:


snip

Really, you expect a shop to carry an axle bolt that is rare even on the interweb? I could understand your complaint if they didn't have a standard inner-tube, but I would expect a shop to order some Dodo bird part from the manufacturer or some distributor and not keeping it in stock, waiting for that one guy with a SRAM leisure hub -- who somehow LOST a hub nut -- to come into the shop. Its not like a wear item.

-- Jay Beattie.


Make that an axle nut.


Didn't lose it. It was cracked.


So its a P[OS] axle nut to boot. I would have made whatever shop sold you the bike warranty it. Where did you get the bike? Write them a threatening letter on your mayor letterhead claiming that you could have died from a catastrophic nut failure. They'll probably send you a whole new bike.

Every time I hear your stories, I wonder if you're hallucinating or if the whole SCV bike culture has gone down the toilet. When I lived down there, San Jose had all sorts of scary old bike shops where you could buy odd-ball nuts and bolts. What about Cupertino Bikes? You're mayor of the GD town, and they're using your name. Wheel Away? They've been around forever. Palo Alto?

Back when I lived there, we had scary old Faber's Cyclery for all the old parts -- which apparently burned down, probably fueled by a lot of old parts and dust.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #29  
Old August 2nd 20, 10:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sepp Ruf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 373
Default LBS owner's essay

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/2/2020 2:25 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/1/2020 5:48 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote:


Neither a 1.0 metric nor a 26tpi gauge fits exactly on those axles and
Sachs/SRAM doesn't state the thread. Even if you decided that 'something
close' would do, there are no m11x1.0 nuts in common use anywhere, not
autos, not McMaster-Carr or what have you.

From the SRAM techmanual gearhubsystems pdf (archive):
Axle - Ends Diameter - FG 10,5

(FG = Fahrradgewinde)

Your old Winkler-Rauch (book) has all the data on it:
Steigung 0,977; Flankenwinkel 60°;
Außendurchmesser 10,444; Flankendurchmesser 9,924; Kerndurchmesser 9,404;
Gangzahl pro Zoll 26; Gewindetiefe 0,520; Gewinderundung 0,163

I do think it's strange that they settled on non-standard threading for
such a simple part. Despite claims, it can't be for reasons of strength.


Just because Frank Krygowski (or some lean-brained, Chicago corn trader MBA
bozo at SRAM, excuse my Polish), "thinks" a part is non-standard does not
mean it really is not.


I've got no problem with non-standard _parts_. I do have a problem with
non-standard _threads_. Threading standards have been pretty stable for
many, many decades.


FG threads, whether they are copies of British threads or not, were around
decades earlier than post-WW2 ISO.
[] any clue why they would have done that?


When they decided that the usual, thinner FG9,5 rear hub axles weren't
strong enough for the growing O.L.D. of gear hubs, somewhere past the 2sp
IGH era.


That was at least inaccurate. I just looked at a technical drawing of a
1930's 2sp Torpedo hub with FG9,5 on the left, and FG10,5 on the right side
which includes the connection from the cable to the internal shifting mechanism.

So was there a specific reason they couldn't go with 12mm threads? (See
"Preferred Sizes" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread


Why would they? In the 1920's, did anyone engineer to facilitate sourcing a
million nuts from the lowest Asian bidder?

I recently worked on an old Shimano 3 speed hub. The left side of the
axle had a larger diameter where it entered the hub, and a smaller
diameter where it passed through the dropouts. I assume this is for
adequate strength at the bearing, yet fitting standard dropouts.


Don't remind me of the next scheduled Shimano Nexus gear bath!
  #30  
Old August 3rd 20, 12:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 988
Default LBS owner's essay

On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 12:25:49 -0700, sms wrote:


Because it was widely used I would expect a long-time store to have some
in their shop.


sadly, some parts are just not economical for them to stock.

Andrew's store had them. And to be fair, at least
Off-Ramp had the somewhat compatible Sturmey-Archer nuts that Sheldon
said could be used in a pinch.

But the point I was making is that an LBS can't get upset when you order
stuff online that they have no interest in selling anyway.


For me, it s 27" tubes and tyres. All the local BS have moved to only
stocking whatever the latest fashion is.

 




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