How can I blacken stainless steel spokes?

Bill Sornson wrote:

jim beam wrote:

Bill Sornson wrote:

Johan Bornman wrote:

Nowadays with all the spoke options I am hard-pressed to keep, or
indeed, find stock of all the permutations. How do they blacken
spokes and can this be done in a workshop as and when needed?

Wok with motor oil. *Turn on high.

destroys their strength.

sigh.

He's oversimplifying. Some surface treatments (e.g. oil residue) will
blacken well below the annealing point of stainless, and others
won't. For instance, the wok turns black without ever having reached
a temperature that would anneal steel or stainless. (I probably would
not want a greasy-wok-like finish on my spokes, unless they were for a
barbecue trike or something.) But if you heat clean stainless until
it glows and turns black just from exposure to air, you've crossed the
line and annealed it.

Anything that uses open flame to apply a surface color creates a risk
of annealing the spoke. Stainless steel has a low heat capacity and a
strong tendency to spot heat.

Chalo

jim beam wrote:
wrote:
he
Stainless Steel Blackener 370 is an acidic liquid concentrate used
full strength or diluted with up to 3 parts water to blacken stainless
steel at room temperature. Recommended for color coding parts and
blackening engravings on stainless steels. Produces a pleasing dark
gray/black finish. No sealer required.


link he

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/black.htm#stainless

========

This is a posibility.

There is a mention that there is a process of applying aluminum to
stainless steel and then anodizing it the color you want:

December 10, 2008


You can also treat stainless steel with IVD - ion vapour deposition -
to give an aluminium coating. You can then anodise it in the same way
as aluminium.

Andrew Pridmore
- Gillingham, Kent, UK

link he

http://www.finishing.com/245/20.shtml



Good luck, cause some of this stuff you would have to buy it, and the
cost is high compared to the need for black spokes.

hope this helps

greg

"Mike Rocket J Squirrel" wrote in
message ...
On 5/12/2009 1:42 PM wrote:

black anodized steel is a common thing, all you have to do is find
out how it is done and do it on a small scale for spokes.
hope this helps
greg
I'm pretty sure that anodizing isn't used on steel.

"Anodic films are most commonly applied to protect aluminium alloys,
although processes also exist for titanium, zinc, magnesium, and
niobium. This process is not a useful treatment for iron or carbon
steel because these metals exfoliate when oxidized; i.e. the iron
oxide (also known as rust) flakes off, constantly exposing the
underlying metal to corrosion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodize

I wonder how stainless parts are made black, commercially... some
Googling turned up:

"...there is a commercial proprietary product available for
blackening stainless steel based on copper-selenium chemistry. It is
used at room temperature. More information can be obtained by doing
an internet search under the term �blackening process.�

http://www.pfonline.com/articles/cli...cl_plate3.html

you guys, with respect, are smoking crack. the per-item cost to do all
this stuff is just ridiculously high compared to purchase of the
requisite parts form an expert manufacturer that will not weaken or
fatigue or corrode their own product. just buy the freakin' things and
quit this ridiculous festival of ignorance.

Mr Beam and I agree.
What exactly is the problem with stainless steel spokes
anyway?? Black on stainless is virtually a burka on a babe.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi wrote:
jim beam wrote:
wrote:
he
Stainless Steel Blackener 370 is an acidic liquid concentrate used
full strength or diluted with up to 3 parts water to blacken
stainless steel at room temperature. Recommended for color coding
parts and blackening engravings on stainless steels. Produces a
pleasing dark gray/black finish. No sealer required.


link he

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/black.htm#stainless

========

This is a posibility.

There is a mention that there is a process of applying aluminum to
stainless steel and then anodizing it the color you want:

December 10, 2008


You can also treat stainless steel with IVD - ion vapour deposition -
to give an aluminium coating. You can then anodise it in the same way
as aluminium.

Andrew Pridmore
- Gillingham, Kent, UK

link he

http://www.finishing.com/245/20.shtml



Good luck, cause some of this stuff you would have to buy it, and the
cost is high compared to the need for black spokes.

hope this helps

greg

"Mike Rocket J Squirrel" wrote in
message ...
On 5/12/2009 1:42 PM wrote:

black anodized steel is a common thing, all you have to do is find
out how it is done and do it on a small scale for spokes.
hope this helps
greg
I'm pretty sure that anodizing isn't used on steel.

"Anodic films are most commonly applied to protect aluminium alloys,
although processes also exist for titanium, zinc, magnesium, and
niobium. This process is not a useful treatment for iron or carbon
steel because these metals exfoliate when oxidized; i.e. the iron
oxide (also known as rust) flakes off, constantly exposing the
underlying metal to corrosion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodize

I wonder how stainless parts are made black, commercially... some
Googling turned up:

"...there is a commercial proprietary product available for
blackening stainless steel based on copper-selenium chemistry. It is
used at room temperature. More information can be obtained by doing
an internet search under the term �blackening process.�

http://www.pfonline.com/articles/cli...cl_plate3.html

you guys, with respect, are smoking crack. the per-item cost to do
all this stuff is just ridiculously high compared to purchase of the
requisite parts form an expert manufacturer that will not weaken or
fatigue or corrode their own product. just buy the freakin' things
and quit this ridiculous festival of ignorance.

Mr Beam and I agree.
What exactly is the problem with stainless steel spokes anyway?? Black
on stainless is virtually a burka on a babe.


I think from the context, it's obvious that spoke blackening is not a
DIY activity. Nobody is praising black spokes, either. I don't like
nukes, wouldn't consider making one at home, but that doesn't mean I
don't find the subject interesting.

I have done anodizing, electro-polishing and plating, for fun, not
profit. Cool stuff. This is rec.bike.tech, right? Not rec.bike.consumer,
or rec.bike.fashion.

On 5/13/2009 3:05 PM Peter Cole wrote:

AMuzi wrote:
jim beam wrote:
wrote:
he
Stainless Steel Blackener 370 is an acidic liquid concentrate used
full strength or diluted with up to 3 parts water to blacken
stainless steel at room temperature. Recommended for color coding
parts and blackening engravings on stainless steels. Produces a
pleasing dark gray/black finish. No sealer required.


link he

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/black.htm#stainless

========

This is a posibility.

There is a mention that there is a process of applying aluminum to
stainless steel and then anodizing it the color you want:

December 10, 2008


You can also treat stainless steel with IVD - ion vapour deposition
- to give an aluminium coating. You can then anodise it in the same
way as aluminium.

Andrew Pridmore
- Gillingham, Kent, UK

link he

http://www.finishing.com/245/20.shtml



Good luck, cause some of this stuff you would have to buy it, and
the cost is high compared to the need for black spokes.

hope this helps

greg

"Mike Rocket J Squirrel" wrote in
message ...
On 5/12/2009 1:42 PM wrote:

black anodized steel is a common thing, all you have to do is find
out how it is done and do it on a small scale for spokes.
hope this helps
greg
I'm pretty sure that anodizing isn't used on steel.

"Anodic films are most commonly applied to protect aluminium
alloys, although processes also exist for titanium, zinc,
magnesium, and niobium. This process is not a useful treatment for
iron or carbon steel because these metals exfoliate when oxidized;
i.e. the iron oxide (also known as rust) flakes off, constantly
exposing the underlying metal to corrosion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodize

I wonder how stainless parts are made black, commercially... some
Googling turned up:

"...there is a commercial proprietary product available for
blackening stainless steel based on copper-selenium chemistry. It
is used at room temperature. More information can be obtained by
doing an internet search under the term �blackening process.�

http://www.pfonline.com/articles/cli...cl_plate3.html

you guys, with respect, are smoking crack. the per-item cost to do
all this stuff is just ridiculously high compared to purchase of the
requisite parts form an expert manufacturer that will not weaken or
fatigue or corrode their own product. just buy the freakin' things
and quit this ridiculous festival of ignorance.

Mr Beam and I agree.
What exactly is the problem with stainless steel spokes anyway?? Black
on stainless is virtually a burka on a babe.


I think from the context, it's obvious that spoke blackening is not a
DIY activity. Nobody is praising black spokes, either. I don't like
nukes, wouldn't consider making one at home, but that doesn't mean I
don't find the subject interesting.

Right on. That was the the spirit in which I took the question.

I have done anodizing, electro-polishing and plating, for fun, not
profit. Cool stuff. This is rec.bike.tech, right? Not rec.bike.consumer,
or rec.bike.fashion.

Need a rec.metalplating NG to fully explore this.

Followed closely by
rec.metalplating.help-Ive-just-been-diagnosed-with-pancreatic-cancer-and-theres-a-guy-from-the-
EPA-in-the-driveway

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
Bend, Oregon

On Wed, 13 May 2009 21:16:02 -0400, Still Just Me
wrote:

On Wed, 13 May 2009 22:05:52 GMT, Peter Cole
wrote:

I don't like
nukes, wouldn't consider making one at home, but that doesn't mean I
don't find the subject interesting.

I think you need to open up your horizons a little more. Backyard
ICBM's can be an enjoyable hobby.

Neighborhood Nuclear Superiority is the new stainless gas grill.

On 5/13/2009 6:44 PM RonSonic wrote:

On Wed, 13 May 2009 21:16:02 -0400, Still Just Me
wrote:

On Wed, 13 May 2009 22:05:52 GMT, Peter Cole
wrote:

I don't like
nukes, wouldn't consider making one at home, but that doesn't mean I
don't find the subject interesting.
I think you need to open up your horizons a little more. Backyard
ICBM's can be an enjoyable hobby.

Neighborhood Nuclear Superiority is the new stainless gas grill.

Which we can make black.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
Bend, Oregon

Carl Sundquist wrote:
Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
On 5/12/2009 10:26 PM Carl Sundquist wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
On May 12, 8:18 pm, Johan Bornman wrote:
Nowadays with all the spoke options I am hard-pressed to keep, or
indeed, find stock of all the permutations. How do they blacken spokes
and can this be done in a workshop as and when needed?

You can have the spokes polished and black-chromed . However.
chromeplating covers cracks and may even cause them, which is why
stressed parts should not be chrome-plated.

The same applies to ion-plating, which is good for a matte result.

Or you can dip the spokes in hot oil and then bake it on in an oven. I
don't know if a microwave will do the the job.

Is there any sort of oxide treatment that might be suitable?

Black oxide is the usual finish for blackening steel, but I don't know
whether it works on stainless. For normal steel, black oxide does not
prevent moisture from getting on the steel, so either wax or oil is
applied as a rust preventative.

As Peter Chisholm say, probably miles easier to buy black spokes.


Why would rust be any more of a factor on an oxided stainless spoke than
an uncoated stainless one?

local electrode potentials and thus pitting. potentially anyway.

Chalo wrote:
Bill Sornson wrote:
jim beam wrote:
Bill Sornson wrote:
Johan Bornman wrote:
Nowadays with all the spoke options I am hard-pressed to keep, or
indeed, find stock of all the permutations. How do they blacken
spokes and can this be done in a workshop as and when needed?
Wok with motor oil. �Turn on high.
destroys their strength.
sigh.

He's oversimplifying. Some surface treatments (e.g. oil residue) will
blacken well below the annealing point of stainless,

you can soften well below annealing chalo. you /do/ know about
martensitic transitions don't you?


and others
won't. For instance, the wok turns black without ever having reached
a temperature that would anneal steel or stainless. (I probably would
not want a greasy-wok-like finish on my spokes, unless they were for a
barbecue trike or something.) But if you heat clean stainless until
it glows and turns black just from exposure to air, you've crossed the
line and annealed it.

Anything that uses open flame to apply a surface color creates a risk
of annealing the spoke. Stainless steel has a low heat capacity and a
strong tendency to spot heat.

listen to the expert!

Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
On 5/13/2009 6:44 PM RonSonic wrote:

On Wed, 13 May 2009 21:16:02 -0400, Still Just Me
wrote:

On Wed, 13 May 2009 22:05:52 GMT, Peter Cole
wrote:

I don't like nukes, wouldn't consider making one at home, but that
doesn't mean I don't find the subject interesting.
I think you need to open up your horizons a little more. Backyard
ICBM's can be an enjoyable hobby.

Neighborhood Nuclear Superiority is the new stainless gas grill.

Which we can make black.

Not without annealing the metal and causing nuclear Armagedon.

jim beam wrote:

Chalo wrote:

Bill Sornson wrote:

jim beam wrote:

Bill Sornson wrote:

Johan Bornman wrote:

Nowadays with all the spoke options I am hard-pressed to keep, or
indeed, find stock of all the permutations. How do they blacken
spokes and can this be done in a workshop as and when needed?

Wok with motor oil. Turn on high.

destroys their strength.

sigh.

He's oversimplifying. *Some surface treatments (e.g. oil residue) will
blacken well below the annealing point of stainless,

you can soften well below annealing chalo. *you /do/ know about
martensitic transitions don't you?

Stainless spokes are always made of 300-series _austenitic_ stainless
alloy, doctor. They don't heat treat. You can have martensitic
spokes or whatever you like, but you'll have to make them yourself.

A distinguished metallurgical expert like you certainly knows that at
about 1100F, or about the temperature at which a steel item _glows red
in normal room lighting_, 304 stainless begins to become "sensitized",
or what most of us would think of as starting the annealing process.
By the time it reaches 1850F it's fully annealed.

It'd take a hell of a wok to dish up 1100F. By then you'd have a fire
anyway if there were oil involved.

Maybe you were thinking about those, ahem, "clever" aluminum spokes
made by your favorite rim manufacturer?

Chalo