RIP John Forester

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:30:36 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 4:07 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

How is it that in the U.S. the lack of a bike lane it is deemed to be
unsafe?

Bicycling has the second-most number of fatalities on a per-trip basis,
second only to motorcycling.


Is it truly? I ask as I have tried for some years now to find a
definitive number for the actual number of bicyclists that use the
roads and to date I just can't find a reliable number. And yes, I do
find U.S. Census numbers for those who say that they ride a bike to
work but comparing that number to the Bicycle sales and it seems
obvious that a great many more bicycles are sold annually than numbers
of ride to work.

But you're asking the wrong question. Hard core cyclists are perfectly
happy to ride where there is no bike lane, bike path, or multi-use path,
in fact they often prefer it. It's getting the people that are less
enthusiastic about cycling out of their cars for short trips around
town, and for commuting.

You obviously can't be serious. Perhaps the most important feature of
a youngster's life is "the day I get my license".

But if you really do want to get people on bicycles, or perhaps better
stated as "out of cars", simply designate parts of town as "car free".
Thailand has done that in a number of cities quite successfully.


I might point out that in Thailand, where I currently reside, the
numbers killed in highway crashes is some of the highest in the world
but yet I can't remember being endangered by traffic.

Amazing, considering the number of motorcycle fatalities in Thailand.

I'm a bit confused here. I write that in Thailand "the numbers killed
in highway crashes is some of the highest in the world" and you reply,
"Amazing, considering the number of motorcycle fatalities in Thailand"

Didn't you realize the motorcycles drive on the highway?


But of course the personal experience of one person is not comprehensive
data. I've only been to Thailand once, and I did not see many cyclists
at all.

Probably not, as the usual tourist, or businessman for that matter, is
largely in the cities. But if you were in Bangkok did you visit
Lumpini Park? Where there are hordes of bicycles every day? As well as
hordes of runners and people sitting on the grass or practicing Tai
Chi. Oh yes, the best and, I believe largest, bicycle shop in Thailand
is on a street bounding the park :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On 4/28/2020 8:00 PM, sms wrote:
On 4/27/2020 2:19 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

snip

Much like politics folks that are dogmatic in the ideology rather than
been
pragmatic, personally my commute has a mix of parks, semi segregated and
very old segregated cycleways the latter is a boon as it has very few
give
ways.

Forester never denied that he was dogmatic. He had no use for any
bicycle infrastructure even though he admitted that many cyclists
preferred it.

It's quite common for "many cyclists" to "prefer" absolutely horrible
designs. Their mantra is "Well, at least they've done _something_ for us."

A local metropark installed a truly horribly designed bike lane, one bad
enough that our club went before park commissioners time and again
trying to get it corrected. I recall seeing two women riding a tandem
(obviously not from here) enter the bike lane, literally cussing out
loud at how stupid it was. Yet one guy I know phoned to say we shouldn't
complain. Why? "At least they've done _something_ for us."

The Jensen before-after study of cycletracks in Copenhagen contains
examples. Jensen's data clearly shows that bicycle crash rates went
significantly up after the sidepaths were installed. But bicyclists
still said they "felt safer" on the sidepaths, even though they were
less safe. And Jensen himself said it was OK if the cyclists were in
more danger, because if those sidepaths recruited (really, deluded) more
people into riding, it would be good for society.

Such dishonesty!

But his tactic of using misleading data and anecdotal evidence was also
clear. Remember the time he proclaimed that bicycle infrastructure
adjacent to a road was unsafe by riding at the same speed as was
possible in the road, then making a left turn from the bike path across
traffic─that "proved" that bicycle infrastructure was unsafe.

I've seen riders make left turns from right side bike lanes across the
path of motor vehicles! If Forester did demonstrate that, he was showing
what people actually do.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:01:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Is your
wallet really so heavy?

Mine weights one pound, ten ounces at the moment.

I have a special pocket in my jerseys for it, and support it with a
drawstring around my waist.

I take cards out of it and put them in a smaller wallet when I walk or
drive.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/28/2020 8:00 PM, sms wrote:
On 4/27/2020 2:19 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

snip

Much like politics folks that are dogmatic in the ideology rather than
been
pragmatic, personally my commute has a mix of parks, semi segregated and
very old segregated cycleways the latter is a boon as it has very few
give
ways.

Forester never denied that he was dogmatic. He had no use for any
bicycle infrastructure even though he admitted that many cyclists
preferred it.

It's quite common for "many cyclists" to "prefer" absolutely horrible
designs. Their mantra is "Well, at least they've done _something_ for us."

A local metropark installed a truly horribly designed bike lane, one bad
enough that our club went before park commissioners time and again
trying to get it corrected. I recall seeing two women riding a tandem
(obviously not from here) enter the bike lane, literally cussing out
loud at how stupid it was. Yet one guy I know phoned to say we shouldn't
complain. Why? "At least they've done _something_ for us."

Maybe some do, to be honest the folks I know be that in the club or locals
or folks on other online platforms and seen how folks use or don’t use the
various infrastructure.

some is just ignored as no real use my cycleway to work is one such though
as it’s direct and very few give ways, (less than the road it tracks) but
as a by pass very few use it, i generally seen no one. And equally there
are some that have no real use they don’t connect etc.

Others are used even if crap, such as CS7 in London it follows a natural
route in, the quality is poor and potentially dangerous.

We are though getting stuff like CS8 down the Embankment which is both
segregated physically and with paint but works well for the types of riders
using it at the moment ie long distance commuting.

In short the crap doesn’t get used or at least in the way intended, in
short on the whole my experience is that cyclists are critical of the
various cycle infrastructure.

The Jensen before-after study of cycletracks in Copenhagen contains
examples. Jensen's data clearly shows that bicycle crash rates went
significantly up after the sidepaths were installed. But bicyclists
still said they "felt safer" on the sidepaths, even though they were
less safe. And Jensen himself said it was OK if the cyclists were in
more danger, because if those sidepaths recruited (really, deluded) more
people into riding, it would be good for society.

Such dishonesty!

But his tactic of using misleading data and anecdotal evidence was also
clear. Remember the time he proclaimed that bicycle infrastructure
adjacent to a road was unsafe by riding at the same speed as was
possible in the road, then making a left turn from the bike path across
traffic─that "proved" that bicycle infrastructure was unsafe.

I've seen riders make left turns from right side bike lanes across the
path of motor vehicles! If Forester did demonstrate that, he was showing
what people actually do.


Roger Merriman

On 4/27/2020 1:16 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

What made me really sad was seeing that a humongous bicycle parking lot
at a large Dutch company I worked at in the early 80's was ... gone.

In this area, companies are putting in indoor bicycle storage
facilities. Often very elaborate, stacked racks, with security. The
outdoor bicycle parking, which was subject to weather and theft were
removed. In fact companies are discouraged from having surface parking
lots for vehicles at all.

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 2:12:18 PM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:16:54 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/28/2020 1:12 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 6:02:09 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/28/2020 5:09 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 10:31:33 AM UTC+2, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 27.04.2020 um 15:31 schrieb jbeattie:
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 5:51:53 PM UTC-7, Ted Heise wrote:

Did you find the wallet?

Nope. I'd already cancelled the credit card. So someone got $20 and some I.D.

That was a fairly lucky end. A few years ago, on the last day before
going on holidays, I just grabbed the wallet and biked to the superstore
to fetch a loaf a bread but lost the wallet on the way there. I noticed
5 minutes later but the wallet was gone.

The next morning, the wallet was laying on our doorstep, all cards,
passport etc included, only the €250 cache was missing. What an
expensive loaf of bread...

You carry 250 euro cash? Why? I don't understand people carrying a
wallet all the time with all their credit cards, bank cards, ID
cards, a lot of cash, drivers licence etc. etc. Why do you need all
of this all the time.

I don't carry anywhere near that amount of cash, but I don't understand
why someone would take the trouble to dig a credit card, their chosen
ID, their chosen amount of cash and whatever else out of a wallet before
a bike ride. Why not just take the wallet? Is it a weight thing? Is your
wallet really so heavy?

I have a small soft case from a pair of my binoculars. I find it
perfectly carries my cell phone, wallet and keys. It carries those in my
bike bag for my long rides and it goes into restaurants with me when I
stop.

For utility rides around town, my wallet stays in its usual pocket.

--
- Frank Krygowski

It is not the weight as in the weight of a bike but I don't like heavy
stuff in my back pockets of my cycling jersey; a cell phone is already
on the limit. More important is the trouble you have when losing it. It
is not the first time that something popped out of my pocket going over
a traffic bump at speed. I really don't want the trouble I have to go
through losing my ID card or drivers licence.

An. My pockets are empty except for a handkerchief, comb and the tiniest
Leatherman tool. Anything else I may need goes in my handlebar bag.

I admit there are minor downsides. Yesterday, yet again, someone asked
me to carry their jacket during our bike ride. But I imagine that person
will be willing to do me some favor some day.

A comb? I have my iPhone and my little travel wallet that had I.D., $20
and a credit card. I also had a Cliff Bar and GU packet and two water
bottles. This was for 100K no stops, although I stopped to talk to the
park ranger and did roll around a bit down at crown point. No hair combing.

-- Jay Beattie.


Same here but wtf do you do to not have a p stop in 100km? Be careful,
last guy I knew that did that has tubes in bad places now.

Gads, not only am I slow, I'm a failure at producing urine. What tubes does your acquaintance have and why did he get them? This is why I don't get a heart rate monitor and power meter -- just more metrics by which I can fail. Next thing, I'll be told I'm not producing enough phlegm.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 4/28/2020 11:21 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:01:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Is your
wallet really so heavy?

Mine weights one pound, ten ounces at the moment.

I have a special pocket in my jerseys for it, and support it with a
drawstring around my waist.

I take cards out of it and put them in a smaller wallet when I walk or
drive.

Wow. Mine's 4.5 ounces.


--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 2:12:18 PM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:16:54 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/28/2020 1:12 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 6:02:09 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/28/2020 5:09 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 10:31:33 AM UTC+2, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 27.04.2020 um 15:31 schrieb jbeattie:
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 5:51:53 PM UTC-7, Ted Heise wrote:

Did you find the wallet?

Nope. I'd already cancelled the credit card. So someone got $20 and some I.D.

That was a fairly lucky end. A few years ago, on the last day before
going on holidays, I just grabbed the wallet and biked to the superstore
to fetch a loaf a bread but lost the wallet on the way there. I noticed
5 minutes later but the wallet was gone.

The next morning, the wallet was laying on our doorstep, all cards,
passport etc included, only the €250 cache was missing. What an
expensive loaf of bread...

You carry 250 euro cash? Why? I don't understand people carrying a
wallet all the time with all their credit cards, bank cards, ID
cards, a lot of cash, drivers licence etc. etc. Why do you need all
of this all the time.

I don't carry anywhere near that amount of cash, but I don't understand
why someone would take the trouble to dig a credit card, their chosen
ID, their chosen amount of cash and whatever else out of a wallet before
a bike ride. Why not just take the wallet? Is it a weight thing? Is your
wallet really so heavy?

I have a small soft case from a pair of my binoculars. I find it
perfectly carries my cell phone, wallet and keys. It carries those in my
bike bag for my long rides and it goes into restaurants with me when I
stop.

For utility rides around town, my wallet stays in its usual pocket.

--
- Frank Krygowski

It is not the weight as in the weight of a bike but I don't like heavy
stuff in my back pockets of my cycling jersey; a cell phone is already
on the limit. More important is the trouble you have when losing it. It
is not the first time that something popped out of my pocket going over
a traffic bump at speed. I really don't want the trouble I have to go
through losing my ID card or drivers licence.

An. My pockets are empty except for a handkerchief, comb and the tiniest
Leatherman tool. Anything else I may need goes in my handlebar bag.

I admit there are minor downsides. Yesterday, yet again, someone asked
me to carry their jacket during our bike ride. But I imagine that person
will be willing to do me some favor some day.

A comb? I have my iPhone and my little travel wallet that had I.D., $20
and a credit card. I also had a Cliff Bar and GU packet and two water
bottles. This was for 100K no stops, although I stopped to talk to the
park ranger and did roll around a bit down at crown point. No hair combing.

-- Jay Beattie.


Same here but wtf do you do to not have a p stop in 100km? Be careful,
last guy I knew that did that has tubes in bad places now.

Gads, not only am I slow, I'm a failure at producing urine. What tubes
does your acquaintance have and why did he get them? This is why I don't
get a heart rate monitor and power meter -- just more metrics by which I
can fail. Next thing, I'll be told I'm not producing enough phlegm.

-- Jay Beattie.


Catheter. Damaged bladder.

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 12:46:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Wow. Mine's 4.5 ounces.

The wallet I'm carrying today is about five ounces.

It's my walking wallet because there's a chance I'll have to undress
into the washing machine, it's easier to wash, and I'm not planning to
stop anywhere anyway. (The first time I made this trip, Dave texted
"You make good time when you aren't stopping.")

The light weight is convenient; I'm wearing an old jersey that doesn't
have a drawstring because I don't want to wear out my nice new jersey,
and the two old jerseys that do have drawstrings probably wouldn't
survive another trip through the machine.

I'm sure glad that I remembered that this jersey was at the back of
the closet; I'd been trying to figure out how to ride in a T-shirt.

--------------------

Turned out that I didn't need to undress into the washing machine.
Probably will tomorrow; it's another dry day (the last for a while),
the courthouse Farmers' Market is scheduled to open, and I'd like to
see (it's carefully not reported) whether the fairgrounds market will
also be open.

On the other hand, I may stay home and make chocolate-covered black
walnuts.

I get to make the Animal-Welfare-League run again on the next dry day:
When I got home, I realized that I'd overlooked an entire dozen cans
of food Al won't eat.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Fri, 01 May 2020 23:26:25 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

I get to make the Animal-Welfare-League run again on the next dry day:
When I got home, I realized that I'd overlooked an entire dozen cans
of food Al won't eat.

And when I put the hot whites in to soak for tomorrow's washing, I
found a couple of ragged bath mats. AWL is always short of old
towels.

Did go to the Farmers' Markets on Saturday, did undress into the
washing machine and take a shower. I passed by the fairgrounds market
without turning off the road; only one booth was in evidence.

Since the courthouse market is in the street, I walked down one
sidewalk -- wanted to come back by the other, but there were too many
people. Hardly anyone on my sidewalk, but it took some jumping to
avoid them, and almost nobody was polite enough to wear a mask.

I loaded enough quarters into my walking wallet to make it weigh a bit
more than five ounces, but wasn't rash enough to get close enough to
anybody to spend any. Four hours in the hospital Friday afternoon was
*quite* enough; I don't want him checked in. (Most of that time was
waiting for tests to turn out negative.)

I'm getting the hang of washing the wallet. Leave the coins in, move
the pins to make sure the coins don't fall out in the washing machine,
hand wash the drivers' license, hairpins, etc., iron the paper.

It's past bedtime.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/