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#11
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Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag
Am Thu, 2 Jul 2020 08:23:33 +0200 schrieb Rolf Mantel
: Am 01.07.2020 um 23:27 schrieb Frank Krygowski: On 7/1/2020 4:39 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 8:44:21 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: Speaking of shoes: I recently took delivery of a new pair of cycling shoes. It involved quite a search, since I don't use clipless pedals (that a person clips into). I like toe clips and straps. I needed to find shoes that came with a proper cleat cover, and it seems those are becoming rare. Plus, I'm not into psychedelic shoe colors. With double-sided SPD platform pedals and endless SPD stealth-shoe styles, I can't imagine why anyone would want to use toe clips, particularly on a tandem. Personally, I frequently ride without "suiting up." In the last couple of weeks, I've ridden that tandem twice with a little kid on the back (using a kid-back attachment I fabricated myself, years ago). Should I really have donned special shoes to ride 7 miles on neighborhood streets, or two miles to a store and back? The double-sided SPD pedals would work after a fashion, but if I were not in SPD shoes I'd be on flat pedals without toe clips. For me, that's less desirable. The double-sided SPD pedals are the best compromise between special shoes for longer distances and "normal shoes" for going into town only. Perhaps. I got rid of my two sided M323 in 2008 on the bicycle used in winter, because I disliked the reduced clearance in curves. It it's not worth putting on special cycling shoes, the lack of foot retention does not matter either. Right. On the other hand, it is amazingly easy to ride on M520 with sturdy shoes, when retention doesn't matter. On the 7 miles to work, I forget to put on the cycling shoes maybe once a year and I'm too lazy to go back into the house again, the difference is quite noticable. Indeed. It's just like riding on a classic rubber-block pedal. Riding on M520 or similar with sturdy shoes is like riding on worn out classic rubber-block pedals. I is something to avoid, but usefull on occasion. But I would never want to ride those 7 milse with something as inferior as toe clips vs. SPD the rest of the year just to get an improvement for that one day per year. Interestingly, my wife is perfectly able to switch between what I'd call "rubber-block pedal riding" on her old and trusty utility bike and how we ride on our road bikes. It is a different style. I mostly avoid riding in groups, but when riding on my road bike together with people on standard biycles, I notice that it's actually easier to do by not using the SPD mechanics. -- Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen |
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#12
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Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag
On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 9:50:16 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 2:27:19 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/1/2020 4:39 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 8:44:21 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: Speaking of shoes: I recently took delivery of a new pair of cycling shoes. It involved quite a search, since I don't use clipless pedals (that a person clips into). I like toe clips and straps. I needed to find shoes that came with a proper cleat cover, and it seems those are becoming rare. Plus, I'm not into psychedelic shoe colors. With double-sided SPD platform pedals and endless SPD stealth-shoe styles, I can't imagine why anyone would want to use toe clips, particularly on a tandem. Hmm. Is that yet more intolerance for others' choices? No, I question your choice when you're already buying special shoes, and particularly when double sided pedals are well suited to tandems. Entry is faster since there is no flip phase, which makes it easier to get into your pedals as you're wobbling off the start. Exit is easier too, depending on the soles of your toe clip shoes and whether you tighten your straps or have multiple straps. I also thought you owned at least one bike with SPD pedals. No? -- Jay Beattie. I can understand the appeal of pedals that you can use comfortable with any shoes that you are wearing at that moment. For me that are platform pedals because they are two sided. The disadvantage for me is that your position is not fixed and you have to look for the right one every time you put your foot on the pedal. For my utility bike I accept this, but for a tandem you don't use to just hop on to get a loaf of bread my choice would be definitely double sided SPD pedals with walkable cycling shoes. Lou |
#13
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Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag
On 7/2/2020 3:50 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 2:27:19 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/1/2020 4:39 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 8:44:21 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: Speaking of shoes: I recently took delivery of a new pair of cycling shoes. It involved quite a search, since I don't use clipless pedals (that a person clips into). I like toe clips and straps. I needed to find shoes that came with a proper cleat cover, and it seems those are becoming rare. Plus, I'm not into psychedelic shoe colors. With double-sided SPD platform pedals and endless SPD stealth-shoe styles, I can't imagine why anyone would want to use toe clips, particularly on a tandem. Hmm. Is that yet more intolerance for others' choices? No, I question your choice when you're already buying special shoes, and particularly when double sided pedals are well suited to tandems. OK, you're questioning my choice, not showing intolerance for my choice. At least that allows more civil discussion. Entry is faster since there is no flip phase, which makes it easier to get into your pedals as you're wobbling off the start. Perhaps I don't understand which SPD pedals you mean. The double sided ones with "no flip phase" still need to be oriented so they're not edgewise, which is not hard. But those are lousy for riding in ordinary shoes. They are a tiny target for pedaling forces and are too easy to slip off of. Pedals like PD-T421 SPDs have a flat platform side, but they still need to be flipped to the proper side depending what shoes you chose that day. Our tandem (like most bikes here) is fitted with Lyotard Mod 23 pedals or their MKS Urban Platform clones. Sheldon agreed with me that these, with toe clips, are the easiest pedals of all to slide into. The opening is like a big funnel. I can get my foot in faster than my friends can clip into their pedals. (On a couple other bikes, I've achieved the same thing with a little bolt-on attachment for the pedal.) If it didn't work, I wouldn't do this. Exit is easier too, depending on the soles of your toe clip shoes and whether you tighten your straps or have multiple straps. I keep the straps just a little loose. I can pull up in the very few instances that's really valuable. (It's usually a myth.) But I can slide out instantaneously. I also thought you owned at least one bike with SPD pedals. No? No. My kid does. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag
On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 13:39:41 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote: I can see wanting to avoid special shoes, but you're buying special shoes. I don't like to change my pedals when I change my shoes. -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ |
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Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag
On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:42:57 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote: On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 13:39:41 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: I can see wanting to avoid special shoes, but you're buying special shoes. I don't like to change my pedals when I change my shoes. Shimano makes at least one model of dual sided pedal. Flat on one side and SPD cleat on the other. One model is the M324 and I think there is a second but can't find a reference to them at the moment. The M324's that I have, on 2 bikes, once they are "broken in" hang almost vertically so to use the flat side you sort of kick the top of the pedal backward and to use the cleat side you kick the top forward. I find that after ridding them for a while it becomes almost automatic to kick the right way to get the side that you want. -- Cheers, John B. |
#16
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Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag
On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 13:01:58 -0400,
Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/2/2020 3:50 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 2:27:19 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/1/2020 4:39 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 8:44:21 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: Speaking of shoes: I recently took delivery of a new pair of cycling shoes. It involved quite a search, since I don't use clipless pedals (that a person clips into). I like toe clips and straps. I needed to find shoes that came with a proper cleat cover, and it seems those are becoming rare. Plus, I'm not into psychedelic shoe colors. Frank, elsewhere in your post you mentioned possibly needing to adjust strap length. I don't quite understand what you were getting at, because I tend to adjust mine every time I ride. After all, it seems most are designed to do just that, and with little hassle. With double-sided SPD platform pedals and endless SPD stealth-shoe styles, I can't imagine why anyone would want to use toe clips, particularly on a tandem. I've had toeclips and straps on my fixed gear bike for most of its life. For me, this makes a good commuter bike. It allows me to just wear my work shoes on the ride to and from the office. Despite years of use and relatively good skill getting in and out, I would not choose such a pedal for my tandem. [snipped semantic jousting] Entry is faster since there is no flip phase, which makes it easier to get into your pedals as you're wobbling off the start. Our tandem (like most bikes here) is fitted with Lyotard Mod 23 pedals or their MKS Urban Platform clones. Sheldon agreed with me that these, with toe clips, are the easiest pedals of all to slide into. The opening is like a big funnel. I can get my foot in faster than my friends can clip into their pedals. Well, my hat is off to you. I'm pretty practiced, and it still takes me an extra go-round or two to get the second pedal flipped so the toe clip is up. Maybe you don't mind the toe clip dragging on the ground for a stroke or two. Maybe it's less of an issue without a fixed gear. In any case, I find double sided pedals (I use original Speedplays) much easier to get into. Exit is easier too, depending on the soles of your toe clip shoes and whether you tighten your straps or have multiple straps. I keep the straps just a little loose. I can pull up in the very few instances that's really valuable. (It's usually a myth.) But I can slide out instantaneously. Yeah, I generally run the straps on the loose side too. I'm not typicallly riding at high effort when on my bike with toe clips. -- Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA |
#17
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Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag
On 7/3/2020 9:03 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 13:01:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/2/2020 3:50 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 2:27:19 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/1/2020 4:39 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 8:44:21 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: Speaking of shoes: I recently took delivery of a new pair of cycling shoes. It involved quite a search, since I don't use clipless pedals (that a person clips into). I like toe clips and straps. I needed to find shoes that came with a proper cleat cover, and it seems those are becoming rare. Plus, I'm not into psychedelic shoe colors. Frank, elsewhere in your post you mentioned possibly needing to adjust strap length. I don't quite understand what you were getting at, because I tend to adjust mine every time I ride. After all, it seems most are designed to do just that, and with little hassle. My default length for the straps is sort of slightly loose. They're loose enough that I can pull my foot out instantaneously, but tight enough to prevent my foot slipping off the pedal if I hit a bump, etc. On single bikes, they're tight enough that I can bunny hop. Since most of the rides on the tandem have been done with the same shoes (because we're less likely to use it for utility rides), the straps have been adjusted for those shoes. The only time I tighten the straps more is if it's going to be a really long or hard (for me) "sport" ride. Sadly, those are rare these days. Our tandem (like most bikes here) is fitted with Lyotard Mod 23 pedals or their MKS Urban Platform clones. Sheldon agreed with me that these, with toe clips, are the easiest pedals of all to slide into. The opening is like a big funnel. I can get my foot in faster than my friends can clip into their pedals. Well, my hat is off to you. I'm pretty practiced, and it still takes me an extra go-round or two to get the second pedal flipped so the toe clip is up. Maybe you don't mind the toe clip dragging on the ground for a stroke or two. The Lyotards are amazingly easy to get into. I just checked to see how it happens, so here are details: The pedal naturally hangs upside down, and the weight of the toe clip means the pedal surface is not exactly horizontal. The toe clip makes it tilt back a bit. When astride the bike and ready to go, my habit (now decades old) is to touch my left foot horizontally to the underside of the pedal, so the pedal pivots from its equilibrium position to horizontal and inverted. When I take my foot off the underside, the pedal swings forward and presents the long rear tab of the Lyotard to my toe. That swing seems to be the key. I slide in easily. That's how I get my left foot in while stationary. When I pedal, I normally do one or two strokes with my right foot on that pedal's underside, but same swinging action makes it dead easy to get my right foot in. Toe clips almost never scrape. That's more than you want to know, I suppose. It's more than I knew until I started this post. I never analyzed it; it all developed by instinct. BTW, I think I found the easiest answer to my slippery sole problem. The front of the tandem has the classic Lyotard M23 pedals, which have a somewhat small platform. The rear has the MKS clones. They're similar, but wider and with a somewhat different top surface. Yesterday I tried my shoes on those pedals and they seem fine, so new pedals are on order. Soon our tandem will have properly matching front and rear pedals. For Jeff: The downside is I won't learn as much about glue and rubber technology. (But thanks for that technical content.) -- - Frank Krygowski |
#18
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Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400,
Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/3/2020 9:03 AM, Ted Heise wrote: On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 13:01:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: Our tandem (like most bikes here) is fitted with Lyotard Mod 23 pedals or their MKS Urban Platform clones. Sheldon agreed with me that these, with toe clips, are the easiest pedals of all to slide into. The opening is like a big funnel. I can get my foot in faster than my friends can clip into their pedals. Well, my hat is off to you. I'm pretty practiced, and it still takes me an extra go-round or two to get the second pedal flipped so the toe clip is up. Maybe you don't mind the toe clip dragging on the ground for a stroke or two. The Lyotards are amazingly easy to get into. I just checked to see how it happens, so here are details: The pedal naturally hangs upside down, and the weight of the toe clip means the pedal surface is not exactly horizontal. The toe clip makes it tilt back a bit. When astride the bike and ready to go, my habit (now decades old) is to touch my left foot horizontally to the underside of the pedal, so the pedal pivots from its equilibrium position to horizontal and inverted. When I take my foot off the underside, the pedal swings forward and presents the long rear tab of the Lyotard to my toe. That swing seems to be the key. I slide in easily. So are you saying the pedal does a roughly 180 degree rotation after you lower your foot from its underside? That doesn't sound right, so I'm probably missing something. I think my technique may be somewhat similar. I place my foot on top of the pedal (toe clip side downward, where it naturally hangs), and when I take my foot off the pedal it swings forward just enough for me to get the toe of my shoe over the other face of the pedal. If I catch it right (maybe 60-70% of the time?), I can then get it pulled around far enough the same direction to let me slide the toe of my shoe in. Maybe that curved tab on the model you use helps a lot. I've got Campagnolo Superleggeri pedals, so they are pretty much flat with both edges the same. And the 'decades old" practice makes me wonder if it was really that simple when you began with it. That's how I get my left foot in while stationary. When I pedal, I normally do one or two strokes with my right foot on that pedal's underside, but same swinging action makes it dead easy to get my right foot in. Toe clips almost never scrape. How can you take one or two strokes without scraping? This doesn't make sense to me, but maybe you angle the pedal somehow. -- Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA |
#19
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Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag
On 7/3/2020 3:08 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/3/2020 9:03 AM, Ted Heise wrote: On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 13:01:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: Our tandem (like most bikes here) is fitted with Lyotard Mod 23 pedals or their MKS Urban Platform clones. Sheldon agreed with me that these, with toe clips, are the easiest pedals of all to slide into. The opening is like a big funnel. I can get my foot in faster than my friends can clip into their pedals. Well, my hat is off to you. I'm pretty practiced, and it still takes me an extra go-round or two to get the second pedal flipped so the toe clip is up. Maybe you don't mind the toe clip dragging on the ground for a stroke or two. The Lyotards are amazingly easy to get into. I just checked to see how it happens, so here are details: The pedal naturally hangs upside down, and the weight of the toe clip means the pedal surface is not exactly horizontal. The toe clip makes it tilt back a bit. When astride the bike and ready to go, my habit (now decades old) is to touch my left foot horizontally to the underside of the pedal, so the pedal pivots from its equilibrium position to horizontal and inverted. When I take my foot off the underside, the pedal swings forward and presents the long rear tab of the Lyotard to my toe. That swing seems to be the key. I slide in easily. So are you saying the pedal does a roughly 180 degree rotation after you lower your foot from its underside? That doesn't sound right, so I'm probably missing something. I think my technique may be somewhat similar. I place my foot on top of the pedal (toe clip side downward, where it naturally hangs), and when I take my foot off the pedal it swings forward just enough for me to get the toe of my shoe over the other face of the pedal. If I catch it right (maybe 60-70% of the time?), I can then get it pulled around far enough the same direction to let me slide the toe of my shoe in. It sounds to me like we do exactly the same thing. Except these pedals are so easy to get into, I slide in well over 90% of the time. Probably about 99%, actually. Maybe that curved tab on the model you use helps a lot. I've got Campagnolo Superleggeri pedals, so they are pretty much flat with both edges the same. It really does help a lot. FWIW, the pedals on my touring bike are different - they're the original quill style pedal that came with the bike. I added "Toe Flips" to the back edges of those pedals - a thin steel accessory that works similarly to the scoop or tab on the Lyotards. Here's a link, although you can't see the shape very well: https://aroundthecycle.com/products/...=8757518827580 I see that MKS markets something with similar intent, but very tiny: https://www.jensonusa.com/MKS-Spin-Pedal-Flips I'd be surprised if those helped as much. And the 'decades old" practice makes me wonder if it was really that simple when you began with it. Yes, it might have taken a while. Can't recall. That's how I get my left foot in while stationary. When I pedal, I normally do one or two strokes with my right foot on that pedal's underside, but same swinging action makes it dead easy to get my right foot in. Toe clips almost never scrape. How can you take one or two strokes without scraping? This doesn't make sense to me, but maybe you angle the pedal somehow. No, I don't even think about it. There is some ground clearance between the toe clip and the inverted pedal. Remember, it's not hanging loose; my foot is on it as it sits inverted. It's not that it never scrapes; but it is seldom. I just measured about 1.5" ground clearance. Obviously, that would vary with crank length, bottom bracket height and toe clip contours. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#20
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Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag
On Friday, July 3, 2020 at 1:47:27 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/3/2020 3:08 PM, Ted Heise wrote: On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/3/2020 9:03 AM, Ted Heise wrote: On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 13:01:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: Our tandem (like most bikes here) is fitted with Lyotard Mod 23 pedals or their MKS Urban Platform clones. Sheldon agreed with me that these, with toe clips, are the easiest pedals of all to slide into. The opening is like a big funnel. I can get my foot in faster than my friends can clip into their pedals. Well, my hat is off to you. I'm pretty practiced, and it still takes me an extra go-round or two to get the second pedal flipped so the toe clip is up. Maybe you don't mind the toe clip dragging on the ground for a stroke or two. The Lyotards are amazingly easy to get into. I just checked to see how it happens, so here are details: The pedal naturally hangs upside down, and the weight of the toe clip means the pedal surface is not exactly horizontal. The toe clip makes it tilt back a bit. When astride the bike and ready to go, my habit (now decades old) is to touch my left foot horizontally to the underside of the pedal, so the pedal pivots from its equilibrium position to horizontal and inverted. When I take my foot off the underside, the pedal swings forward and presents the long rear tab of the Lyotard to my toe. That swing seems to be the key. I slide in easily. So are you saying the pedal does a roughly 180 degree rotation after you lower your foot from its underside? That doesn't sound right, so I'm probably missing something. I think my technique may be somewhat similar. I place my foot on top of the pedal (toe clip side downward, where it naturally hangs), and when I take my foot off the pedal it swings forward just enough for me to get the toe of my shoe over the other face of the pedal. If I catch it right (maybe 60-70% of the time?), I can then get it pulled around far enough the same direction to let me slide the toe of my shoe in. It sounds to me like we do exactly the same thing. Except these pedals are so easy to get into, I slide in well over 90% of the time. Probably about 99%, actually. Maybe that curved tab on the model you use helps a lot. I've got Campagnolo Superleggeri pedals, so they are pretty much flat with both edges the same. It really does help a lot. FWIW, the pedals on my touring bike are different - they're the original quill style pedal that came with the bike. I added "Toe Flips" to the back edges of those pedals - a thin steel accessory that works similarly to the scoop or tab on the Lyotards. Here's a link, although you can't see the shape very well: https://aroundthecycle.com/products/...=8757518827580 I see that MKS markets something with similar intent, but very tiny: https://www.jensonusa.com/MKS-Spin-Pedal-Flips I'd be surprised if those helped as much. And the 'decades old" practice makes me wonder if it was really that simple when you began with it. Yes, it might have taken a while. Can't recall. That's how I get my left foot in while stationary. When I pedal, I normally do one or two strokes with my right foot on that pedal's underside, but same swinging action makes it dead easy to get my right foot in. Toe clips almost never scrape. How can you take one or two strokes without scraping? This doesn't make sense to me, but maybe you angle the pedal somehow. No, I don't even think about it. There is some ground clearance between the toe clip and the inverted pedal. Remember, it's not hanging loose; my foot is on it as it sits inverted. It's not that it never scrapes; but it is seldom. I just measured about 1.5" ground clearance. Obviously, that would vary with crank length, bottom bracket height and toe clip contours. I used to blow through Lyotard platform pedals because they were relatively cheap and had poor/non-existent seals. Cones would pit and bearings would fail, particularly since I wasn't that diligent repacking them every time I rode in the rain. Anyway, this points out another benefit of the M520s or better -- they have great seals. I repacked a set of pedals that were a decade old and that had been ridden in endless rain, and the grease was still intact and in good shape. Speaking of rain, another benefit of clipless is that your booties don't get beat-up by toe clips and don't hang-up on the toe clips when you're getting in to the pedal. My booties are not cheap. Back in the toe-clip days, I sewed my own booties. They were junk, but riding in California, they were rarely used and good enough. -- Jay Beattie. |
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