bike broke; is it worth fixing?

"Pat Lamb" wrote in message
...
Broke the right chainstay on the way to work this morning, right ahead
of the dropout. It's a steel Fuji touring bike, vintage 1998, with
about 12,000 miles on it. I'm sure a welder can fix it, but is it
worthwhile to fix it?

Advantages of fixing, as I see it: I'm guessing repair cost of $300-500
for welding and paint job, vs. a lot more for a (new) replacement.
Makes all the other repair work from the last year worth it. I've got
the fit dialed in where I want it. It's customized and accessorized to
my liking.

Disadvantages (and advantages, new bike): After 12,000 miles, I wonder
what else is fatigued and ready to break next. (Derailleur hanger bent
and stripped last spring, for example.) Most attached things can be
moved over to a new bike, or kept as spare parts.

The technical issue in my mind boils down to whether this is likely to
be the last major problem for the next 5-10,000 miles, or is this a
harbinger of mechanical unreliability that will haunt me until I finally
give up?

Comments, advice (especially something I'm overlooking), and other input
welcome.

Pat

The best fix is to have the chainstay tube replaced by a competent frame
builder. You could have the damaged dropout replaced at the same time. The
frame may not be worth the expense of having this done.

This frame was probably assembled using brass brazing material. The remelt
temperature of the brass is going to be higher than it's original melting
point and can damage thin wall tubing through overheating. For this
reason, most of the frame builders that I know will cut off the chainstay
tube at the bottom bracket and remove the tubing remnant from the BB with
a carbide burr.

Several other posters have suggested that you can have the broken
chainstay welded. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with that kind of
repair.

When you weld the types steel tubing used in bike frames, the carbon in
the steel tends to migrate to the molten zone causing local
decarburization in the metal surrounding the heated area. The added carbon
that ends up in the weld can cause embrittlement.

There are some good microphotographs of decarburization in this link.

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/abstracts/M0.html

What this really means is the steel in the area surrounding the weld has
been weakened because of reduced carbon content. The weld itself can
become brittle because of the increased carbon content. It becomes more
sensitive to the quenching effect of fast cooling which will increase the
localized hardness. The strength of the steel surrounding the weld can be
reduced by up to 50% while the weld itself becomes much stronger.

As at least one of the welding proponents has mentioned his chainstay
broke again in the area near the weld. These problems can be correct with
the proper post welding heat treatment of the whole frame which would burn
off all of the paint.

A broken chain stay may give you enough warning to prevent the rear wheel
from shifting against the opposite chainstay bringing the bike to a halt.
I wouldn't risk my health and well being just to save a few bucks.

Chas.

* * Chas wrote:
"Pat Lamb" wrote in message
...
Broke the right chainstay on the way to work this morning, right ahead
of the dropout. It's a steel Fuji touring bike, vintage 1998, with
about 12,000 miles on it. I'm sure a welder can fix it, but is it
worthwhile to fix it?

Advantages of fixing, as I see it: I'm guessing repair cost of $300-500
for welding and paint job, vs. a lot more for a (new) replacement.
Makes all the other repair work from the last year worth it. I've got
the fit dialed in where I want it. It's customized and accessorized to
my liking.

Disadvantages (and advantages, new bike): After 12,000 miles, I wonder
what else is fatigued and ready to break next. (Derailleur hanger bent
and stripped last spring, for example.) Most attached things can be
moved over to a new bike, or kept as spare parts.

The technical issue in my mind boils down to whether this is likely to
be the last major problem for the next 5-10,000 miles, or is this a
harbinger of mechanical unreliability that will haunt me until I finally
give up?

Comments, advice (especially something I'm overlooking), and other input
welcome.

Pat

The best fix is to have the chainstay tube replaced by a competent frame
builder. You could have the damaged dropout replaced at the same time. The
frame may not be worth the expense of having this done.

This frame was probably assembled using brass brazing material. The remelt
temperature of the brass is going to be higher than it's original melting
point and can damage thin wall tubing through overheating. For this
reason, most of the frame builders that I know will cut off the chainstay
tube at the bottom bracket and remove the tubing remnant from the BB with
a carbide burr.

Several other posters have suggested that you can have the broken
chainstay welded. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with that kind of
repair.

When you weld the types steel tubing used in bike frames, the carbon in
the steel tends to migrate to the molten zone causing local
decarburization in the metal surrounding the heated area. The added carbon
that ends up in the weld can cause embrittlement.

There are some good microphotographs of decarburization in this link.

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/abstracts/M0.html

What this really means is the steel in the area surrounding the weld has
been weakened because of reduced carbon content. The weld itself can
become brittle because of the increased carbon content. It becomes more
sensitive to the quenching effect of fast cooling which will increase the
localized hardness. The strength of the steel surrounding the weld can be
reduced by up to 50% while the weld itself becomes much stronger.

As at least one of the welding proponents has mentioned his chainstay
broke again in the area near the weld. These problems can be correct with
the proper post welding heat treatment of the whole frame which would burn
off all of the paint.

A broken chain stay may give you enough warning to prevent the rear wheel
from shifting against the opposite chainstay bringing the bike to a halt.
I wouldn't risk my health and well being just to save a few bucks.


A rear wheel that locks at in inopportune time is "A Bad Thing ®". One
time several years ago I was riding across the Brooklyn Bridge on my
track bike. I was on the downward slope going probably 25+ mp/h.
Suddenly my chain jumped ship and got jammed along with the wheel
causing the wheel to lock. I must have skidded 200 yards, enough for
the tubular to get completely worn through and and rim to get almost
ruined scraping on the path. By some totally incomprehensible stroke of
fate, I did not crash. I was even able to reach down and loosen my
straps just before I came to a stop. That was by far an exception, any
other time a bike wheel locks unexpectedly, a crash is almost
gauranteed. And if you pick the wrong place to crash, the results can
be quite unfortunate.

My vote is for a new frame, either free on warranty, or new purchase.

Joseph

Ken Wright wrote:
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 07:38:26 -0800, landotter wrote:


Pat Lamb wrote:
Broke the right chainstay on the way to work this morning, right ahead
of the dropout. It's a steel Fuji touring bike, vintage 1998, with
about 12,000 miles on it. I'm sure a welder can fix it, but is it
worthwhile to fix it?

$50 to weld, tops, and $5 to rattlecan paint. Do it.

I agree with landotter. I have a Raleigh technium which had the same
break at about 27000 miles. My dad was a welder and fixed it with a
eutectic brazing rod. About a year after that the left side broke too.
Another braze fix. The right side broke again immediately in front
of the braze about a year ago at about 70000 miles. Another braze fix and
its still going.

Which technium do you have? Is it a "Prestige"? I had one, and it
broke on the downtube. The shifter bosses were actually squared off
where they went through the hole in the frame, and that started a
crack. Mine broke at about 25k miles.

As I remember, it had a steel rear triangle. Your father brazed it
with a brass rod?



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"Ken Wright" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 07:38:26 -0800, landotter wrote:


Pat Lamb wrote:
Broke the right chainstay on the way to work this morning, right ahead
of the dropout. It's a steel Fuji touring bike, vintage 1998, with
about 12,000 miles on it. I'm sure a welder can fix it, but is it
worthwhile to fix it?

$50 to weld, tops, and $5 to rattlecan paint. Do it.

I agree with landotter. I have a Raleigh technium which had the same
break at about 27000 miles. My dad was a welder and fixed it with a
eutectic brazing rod. About a year after that the left side broke too.
Another braze fix. The right side broke again immediately in front
of the braze about a year ago at about 70000 miles. Another braze fix and
its still going.

kw



That's the spirit!

Pat Lamb wrote:
Broke the right chainstay on the way to work this morning, right ahead
of the dropout. It's a steel Fuji touring bike, vintage 1998, with
about 12,000 miles on it. I'm sure a welder can fix it, but is it
worthwhile to fix it?

Advantages of fixing, as I see it: I'm guessing repair cost of $300-500
for welding and paint job, vs. a lot more for a (new) replacement.
Makes all the other repair work from the last year worth it. I've got
the fit dialed in where I want it. It's customized and accessorized to
my liking.

Disadvantages (and advantages, new bike): After 12,000 miles, I wonder
what else is fatigued and ready to break next. (Derailleur hanger bent
and stripped last spring, for example.) Most attached things can be
moved over to a new bike, or kept as spare parts.

The technical issue in my mind boils down to whether this is likely to
be the last major problem for the next 5-10,000 miles, or is this a
harbinger of mechanical unreliability that will haunt me until I finally
give up?

Comments, advice (especially something I'm overlooking), and other input
welcome.

Pat

you can repair anything is you want to pay enough. real question is
whether it's worth it - and in my opinion, the answer is "no". for $120
you can buy a brand new cheapo aluminum road frame from nashbar that
will outlast any likely repair or other breaks that are likely in the
works for your frame. nor will it rust. i have about 12k miles on
mine, and it's fantastic value for money.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:17:37 -0800, bill wrote:


Ken Wright wrote:
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 07:38:26 -0800, landotter wrote:


Pat Lamb wrote:
Broke the right chainstay on the way to work this morning, right ahead
of the dropout. It's a steel Fuji touring bike, vintage 1998, with
about 12,000 miles on it. I'm sure a welder can fix it, but is it
worthwhile to fix it?

$50 to weld, tops, and $5 to rattlecan paint. Do it.

I agree with landotter. I have a Raleigh technium which had the same
break at about 27000 miles. My dad was a welder and fixed it with a
eutectic brazing rod. About a year after that the left side broke too.
Another braze fix. The right side broke again immediately in front
of the braze about a year ago at about 70000 miles. Another braze fix and
its still going.

Which technium do you have? Is it a "Prestige"? I had one, and it
broke on the downtube. The shifter bosses were actually squared off
where they went through the hole in the frame, and that started a
crack. Mine broke at about 25k miles.

I don't know the model it just says Technium. I believe it is one of the
earliest models. It supposedly has chromoly chain and seat stays and cast
lugs. I don't believe I've ever had the shifters off all the way so I'm
not sure of the bosses.


As I remember, it had a steel rear triangle. Your father brazed it with
a brass rod?


I believe it is a silver alloy formulated for the lowest melting point.
You want to keep the temp down otherwise the original brazes on the
dropout will melt. For the repair the dropout was ground down to a V
shape on each side of the break. Wet rags placed on the stay and the
dropout to help keep the temp down. A rather thick fillet was made on each
side of the break so it is noticably thicker than the original dropout.

........
------\ /-------
Stay || Dropout
______/ \_______
........
^
Braze


kw

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Pat Lamb wrote:
Broke the right chainstay on the way to work this morning, right ahead
of the dropout. It's a steel Fuji touring bike, vintage 1998, with
about 12,000 miles on it. I'm sure a welder can fix it, but is it
worthwhile to fix it?

Advantages of fixing, as I see it: I'm guessing repair cost of $300-500
for welding and paint job, vs. a lot more for a (new) replacement.
Makes all the other repair work from the last year worth it. I've got
the fit dialed in where I want it. It's customized and accessorized to
my liking.

Disadvantages (and advantages, new bike): After 12,000 miles, I wonder
what else is fatigued and ready to break next. (Derailleur hanger bent
and stripped last spring, for example.) Most attached things can be
moved over to a new bike, or kept as spare parts.

The technical issue in my mind boils down to whether this is likely to
be the last major problem for the next 5-10,000 miles, or is this a
harbinger of mechanical unreliability that will haunt me until I finally
give up?

Comments, advice (especially something I'm overlooking), and other input
welcome.

Pat

I bought a NOS Fuji touring frame & fork last year on Ebay for under
$100 (I think it was 2002 model). I think of frames of this caliber as
disposable, I'd say it's time to dispose it.

Does Fuji have a lifetime frame warranty? Get a new frame!!!
Pat Lamb wrote:
Broke the right chainstay on the way to work this morning, right ahead
of the dropout. It's a steel Fuji touring bike, vintage 1998, with
about 12,000 miles on it. I'm sure a welder can fix it, but is it
worthwhile to fix it?

Advantages of fixing, as I see it: I'm guessing repair cost of $300-500
for welding and paint job, vs. a lot more for a (new) replacement.
Makes all the other repair work from the last year worth it. I've got
the fit dialed in where I want it. It's customized and accessorized to
my liking.

Disadvantages (and advantages, new bike): After 12,000 miles, I wonder
what else is fatigued and ready to break next. (Derailleur hanger bent
and stripped last spring, for example.) Most attached things can be
moved over to a new bike, or kept as spare parts.

The technical issue in my mind boils down to whether this is likely to
be the last major problem for the next 5-10,000 miles, or is this a
harbinger of mechanical unreliability that will haunt me until I finally
give up?

Comments, advice (especially something I'm overlooking), and other input
welcome.

Pat

wrote in message
oups.com...

* * Chas wrote:
"Pat Lamb" wrote in message
...
Broke the right chainstay on the way to work this morning, right ahead
of the dropout. It's a steel Fuji touring bike, vintage 1998, with
about 12,000 miles on it. I'm sure a welder can fix it, but is it
worthwhile to fix it?

Advantages of fixing, as I see it: I'm guessing repair cost of
$300-500
for welding and paint job, vs. a lot more for a (new) replacement.
Makes all the other repair work from the last year worth it. I've got
the fit dialed in where I want it. It's customized and accessorized
to
my liking.

Disadvantages (and advantages, new bike): After 12,000 miles, I
wonder
what else is fatigued and ready to break next. (Derailleur hanger
bent
and stripped last spring, for example.) Most attached things can be
moved over to a new bike, or kept as spare parts.

The technical issue in my mind boils down to whether this is likely to
be the last major problem for the next 5-10,000 miles, or is this a
harbinger of mechanical unreliability that will haunt me until I
finally
give up?

Comments, advice (especially something I'm overlooking), and other
input
welcome.

Pat

The best fix is to have the chainstay tube replaced by a competent frame
builder. You could have the damaged dropout replaced at the same time.
The
frame may not be worth the expense of having this done.

This frame was probably assembled using brass brazing material. The
remelt
temperature of the brass is going to be higher than it's original
melting
point and can damage thin wall tubing through overheating. For this
reason, most of the frame builders that I know will cut off the
chainstay
tube at the bottom bracket and remove the tubing remnant from the BB wit
h
a carbide burr.

Several other posters have suggested that you can have the broken
chainstay welded. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with that kind
of
repair.

When you weld the types steel tubing used in bike frames, the carbon in
the steel tends to migrate to the molten zone causing local
decarburization in the metal surrounding the heated area. The added
carbon
that ends up in the weld can cause embrittlement.

There are some good microphotographs of decarburization in this link.

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/abstracts/M0.html

What this really means is the steel in the area surrounding the weld has
been weakened because of reduced carbon content. The weld itself can
become brittle because of the increased carbon content. It becomes more
sensitive to the quenching effect of fast cooling which will increase
the
localized hardness. The strength of the steel surrounding the weld can
be
reduced by up to 50% while the weld itself becomes much stronger.

As at least one of the welding proponents has mentioned his chainstay
broke again in the area near the weld. These problems can be correct
with
the proper post welding heat treatment of the whole frame which would
burn
off all of the paint.

A broken chain stay may give you enough warning to prevent the rear
wheel
from shifting against the opposite chainstay bringing the bike to a
halt.
I wouldn't risk my health and well being just to save a few bucks.


A rear wheel that locks at in inopportune time is "A Bad Thing ®". One
time several years ago I was riding across the Brooklyn Bridge on my
track bike. I was on the downward slope going probably 25+ mp/h.
Suddenly my chain jumped ship and got jammed along with the wheel
causing the wheel to lock. I must have skidded 200 yards, enough for
the tubular to get completely worn through and and rim to get almost
ruined scraping on the path. By some totally incomprehensible stroke of
fate, I did not crash. I was even able to reach down and loosen my
straps just before I came to a stop. That was by far an exception, any
other time a bike wheel locks unexpectedly, a crash is almost
gauranteed. And if you pick the wrong place to crash, the results can
be quite unfortunate.

My vote is for a new frame, either free on warranty, or new purchase.

Joseph

I live in the middle of a short street with steep hills at both ends so
it's great for checking out gears and brakes. Twice in the last few months
I was road testing bikes that I had just worked on and the rear wheel
shifted and locked up against the left chainstay while honking up these
hills. The first time I was able to dismount and catch myself. The second
caused the bike to pitch to the left and I landed on my head. I was lucky,
just scuffed my helmet a little.

Both times the bikes had Shimano QR skewers which I had just tightened
before riding. I replaced them with Campys QRs, end of problem.

Chas.

* * Chas wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

* * Chas wrote:
"Pat Lamb" wrote in message
...
Broke the right chainstay on the way to work this morning, right ahead
of the dropout. It's a steel Fuji touring bike, vintage 1998, with
about 12,000 miles on it. I'm sure a welder can fix it, but is it
worthwhile to fix it?

Advantages of fixing, as I see it: I'm guessing repair cost of
$300-500
for welding and paint job, vs. a lot more for a (new) replacement.
Makes all the other repair work from the last year worth it. I've got
the fit dialed in where I want it. It's customized and accessorized
to
my liking.

Disadvantages (and advantages, new bike): After 12,000 miles, I
wonder
what else is fatigued and ready to break next. (Derailleur hanger
bent
and stripped last spring, for example.) Most attached things can be
moved over to a new bike, or kept as spare parts.

The technical issue in my mind boils down to whether this is likely to
be the last major problem for the next 5-10,000 miles, or is this a
harbinger of mechanical unreliability that will haunt me until I
finally
give up?

Comments, advice (especially something I'm overlooking), and other
input
welcome.

Pat
The best fix is to have the chainstay tube replaced by a competent frame
builder. You could have the damaged dropout replaced at the same time.
The
frame may not be worth the expense of having this done.

This frame was probably assembled using brass brazing material. The
remelt
temperature of the brass is going to be higher than it's original
melting
point and can damage thin wall tubing through overheating. For this
reason, most of the frame builders that I know will cut off the
chainstay
tube at the bottom bracket and remove the tubing remnant from the BB wit
h
a carbide burr.

Several other posters have suggested that you can have the broken
chainstay welded. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with that kind
of
repair.

When you weld the types steel tubing used in bike frames, the carbon in
the steel tends to migrate to the molten zone causing local
decarburization in the metal surrounding the heated area. The added
carbon
that ends up in the weld can cause embrittlement.

There are some good microphotographs of decarburization in this link.

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/abstracts/M0.html

What this really means is the steel in the area surrounding the weld has
been weakened because of reduced carbon content. The weld itself can
become brittle because of the increased carbon content. It becomes more
sensitive to the quenching effect of fast cooling which will increase
the
localized hardness. The strength of the steel surrounding the weld can
be
reduced by up to 50% while the weld itself becomes much stronger.

As at least one of the welding proponents has mentioned his chainstay
broke again in the area near the weld. These problems can be correct
with
the proper post welding heat treatment of the whole frame which would
burn
off all of the paint.

A broken chain stay may give you enough warning to prevent the rear
wheel
from shifting against the opposite chainstay bringing the bike to a
halt.
I wouldn't risk my health and well being just to save a few bucks.


A rear wheel that locks at in inopportune time is "A Bad Thing �". One
time several years ago I was riding across the Brooklyn Bridge on my
track bike. I was on the downward slope going probably 25+ mp/h.
Suddenly my chain jumped ship and got jammed along with the wheel
causing the wheel to lock. I must have skidded 200 yards, enough for
the tubular to get completely worn through and and rim to get almost
ruined scraping on the path. By some totally incomprehensible stroke of
fate, I did not crash. I was even able to reach down and loosen my
straps just before I came to a stop. That was by far an exception, any
other time a bike wheel locks unexpectedly, a crash is almost
gauranteed. And if you pick the wrong place to crash, the results can
be quite unfortunate.

My vote is for a new frame, either free on warranty, or new purchase.

Joseph

I live in the middle of a short street with steep hills at both ends so
it's great for checking out gears and brakes. Twice in the last few months
I was road testing bikes that I had just worked on and the rear wheel
shifted and locked up against the left chainstay while honking up these
hills. The first time I was able to dismount and catch myself. The second
caused the bike to pitch to the left and I landed on my head. I was lucky,
just scuffed my helmet a little.

Both times the bikes had Shimano QR skewers which I had just tightened
before riding. I replaced them with Campys QRs, end of problem.

Chas.


i thought the mechanical advantage of both types were the same - if so,
how can one clamp harder than the other? was there some other feature
on the campy skewer vs. the shimano skewer such as a sharp steel facing
on the thumb screw?