Bike Touring Company

This is a little unexpected. I knew that my friend Ji Yang was
planning on setting up a bike touring company for trips around Hainan,
and I knew that I was going to be in on it, and I recently knew that
he was going to ask the mother of a riding buddy of ours for some
venture capital...

But I did not expect that said mom (who is a very successful
businesswoman and already uber wealthy) would have very VERY big
ideas. It's nice when the person you present with an idea when you
ask for venture capital says "how about you do this other thing" five
times as big and I give you ten times as much money as you asked for.

Which is why we're about to go buy 40 bikes.

Well, mostly - he. I'm in but I'm mostly on the sidelines since I've
got a bike race and two telecommuting jobs right now. Doesn't really
give me enough time to also start a touring company.

I'm angling for us *not* getting forty 105 equipped road bikes with
brifters (mom's idea) cause anyone Chinese who is enough into bike to
have any idea how to use a brifter will be bringing their own bike
with them.

I want to bounce some ideas off people and see if you think my
preferred equipment choices would be good for not especially good (or
strong) riders who will be paying relatively large sums of money per
person.

The riders will be going on generally excellent roads with some
hills. They are unlikely to carry luggage in anything other than a
support vehicle. They are unlikely to ride in the rain.

1) flat bar OR butterfly bars
2) mountain bike thumb clickies
3) 105 hubs
4) 105 crankset (compact?)
5) 105 front derailleur
6) atb 11-32 cassette
7) mountain bike rear derailleur
8) aluminum cyclocross frame with clearance
9) 700x25 tires

I'm thinking this should come in around 3000rmb a bike or less
(especially considering that we'll be buying 40 at once), leaving
enough for the place in Shenzhen that charges 500rmb/frame+fork to do
custom paint jobs and get each bike with a Hainan theme and the
company name painted on the downtube.

What do you think of the equipment list?

Anything I should change?

-M

In article
,
Marian wrote:

This is a little unexpected. I knew that my friend Ji Yang was
planning on setting up a bike touring company for trips around Hainan,
and I knew that I was going to be in on it, and I recently knew that
he was going to ask the mother of a riding buddy of ours for some
venture capital...

But I did not expect that said mom (who is a very successful
businesswoman and already uber wealthy) would have very VERY big
ideas. It's nice when the person you present with an idea when you
ask for venture capital says "how about you do this other thing" five
times as big and I give you ten times as much money as you asked for.

Which is why we're about to go buy 40 bikes.

Well, mostly - he. I'm in but I'm mostly on the sidelines since I've
got a bike race and two telecommuting jobs right now. Doesn't really
give me enough time to also start a touring company.

I'm angling for us *not* getting forty 105 equipped road bikes with
brifters (mom's idea) cause anyone Chinese who is enough into bike to
have any idea how to use a brifter will be bringing their own bike
with them.

I want to bounce some ideas off people and see if you think my
preferred equipment choices would be good for not especially good (or
strong) riders who will be paying relatively large sums of money per
person.

The riders will be going on generally excellent roads with some
hills. They are unlikely to carry luggage in anything other than a
support vehicle. They are unlikely to ride in the rain.

1) flat bar OR butterfly bars
2) mountain bike thumb clickies
3) 105 hubs
4) 105 crankset (compact?)
5) 105 front derailleur
6) atb 11-32 cassette
7) mountain bike rear derailleur
8) aluminum cyclocross frame with clearance
9) 700x25 tires

I'm thinking this should come in around 3000rmb a bike or less
(especially considering that we'll be buying 40 at once), leaving
enough for the place in Shenzhen that charges 500rmb/frame+fork to do
custom paint jobs and get each bike with a Hainan theme and the
company name painted on the downtube.

The people you need to crib from are existing tour operators who do
stuff like "tour the alps!" tours.

What do you think of the equipment list?

Defensible, but I would suggest throwing in some standard road bikes
into the mix (a few, maybe five?) to accommodate serious riders who
might not want to bring their own bike, given the cost and annoyances of
checking a bike these days.

Also, rather than specify a CX frame, consider preferring an
off-the-shelf "fitness"/flat-bar frame, which is likely to avoid a few
quirks of a proper CX design. In particular, CX frames avoid compact
geometry because a large triangle makes the frame easier to carry; for
your tourists a compact design means a more forgiving standover and more
flexible rider-fitting.

That's just one of many minor foibles of a CX design. I'd also recommend
opting for caliper brakes if at all possible, as they tend to be much
less fussy in their setup than cantis, though V-brakes aren't too hard
to set up. I'm not sure whether V- or caliper brakes would require more
mid-pad-wear adjustment.

Anything I should change?

I'd go triple rather than compact for this application. A wider choice
of gears is useful for the diverse abilities of your riders. Also, by
"thumb clickies" I assume you mean modern trigger shifters activated by
thumb and index finger.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Marian wrote:

I want to bounce some ideas off people and see if you think my
preferred equipment choices would be good for not especially good (or
strong) riders who will be paying relatively large sums of money per
person.

snip

Marian, check this link for the optimal bicycle for these tours.

"http://tinyurl.com/6xa4tx"

Personally I wouldn't do any organized tour in China unless it was on
Flying Pigeons. Also, the way the world economy is going you may want
the tour company to offer some two-star hotel tours as well as the more
luxurious tours, in order to expand your TAM.

When I went on a bicycle tour of China, two decades ago, I chose the
low-budget tour because a) I didn't care about 5 star hotels, and b) I
didn't want to spend $3500, but $1800 was fine (this was for 23 days
including airfare). There were no fancy bikes, no 5 star hotels, and
some of us had to travel in hard sleeper). I think it was the best trip
I've ever been on. No one complained about the accommodations because we
knew in advance what we were getting into.

Marian wrote:
This is a little unexpected. I knew that my friend Ji Yang was
planning on setting up a bike touring company for trips around Hainan,
and I knew that I was going to be in on it, and I recently knew that
he was going to ask the mother of a riding buddy of ours for some
venture capital...

But I did not expect that said mom (who is a very successful
businesswoman and already uber wealthy) would have very VERY big
ideas. It's nice when the person you present with an idea when you
ask for venture capital says "how about you do this other thing" five
times as big and I give you ten times as much money as you asked for.

Which is why we're about to go buy 40 bikes.

Well, mostly - he. I'm in but I'm mostly on the sidelines since I've
got a bike race and two telecommuting jobs right now. Doesn't really
give me enough time to also start a touring company.

I'm angling for us *not* getting forty 105 equipped road bikes with
brifters (mom's idea) cause anyone Chinese who is enough into bike to
have any idea how to use a brifter will be bringing their own bike
with them.

I want to bounce some ideas off people and see if you think my
preferred equipment choices would be good for not especially good (or
strong) riders who will be paying relatively large sums of money per
person.

The riders will be going on generally excellent roads with some
hills. They are unlikely to carry luggage in anything other than a
support vehicle. They are unlikely to ride in the rain.

1) flat bar OR butterfly bars
2) mountain bike thumb clickies
3) 105 hubs
4) 105 crankset (compact?)
5) 105 front derailleur
6) atb 11-32 cassette
7) mountain bike rear derailleur
8) aluminum cyclocross frame with clearance
9) 700x25 tires

I'm thinking this should come in around 3000rmb a bike or less
(especially considering that we'll be buying 40 at once), leaving
enough for the place in Shenzhen that charges 500rmb/frame+fork to do
custom paint jobs and get each bike with a Hainan theme and the
company name painted on the downtube.

What do you think of the equipment list?

Anything I should change?

-M

avoid mixing road and mtb front derailleur parts, it doesn't work properly.

I'd would think hard about a standard Deore groupset with 36H hubs, 48t
chainring option, and maybe 57mm roadbrakes (Tektro R 538?, audax frame
required) and 35mm tyres. And maybe some bikes with a Nexus hub for the
really clueless.
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

nmp wrote:


I think you will need plenty of spare parts too.


Yes, and figure out how you are going to unload and replace your current
bikes (neutral graphics or repaint?) every year to keep the fleet fresh
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

nmp wrote:
I want to bounce some ideas off people and see if you think my preferred
equipment choices would be good for not especially good (or strong)
riders who will be paying relatively large sums of money per person.

The riders will be going on generally excellent roads with some hills.
They are unlikely to carry luggage in anything other than a support
vehicle. They are unlikely to ride in the rain.

1) flat bar OR butterfly bars

Your target clientele, unless they are racing wannabes, are probably
going to *love* the butterfly bars. Also, on the fly adjustable stems,
something like http://tinyurl.com/6397ea or
http://tinyurl.com/66p3pg. Also makes the tour leader's life easier
(don't need tools to adjust everything to everyone's liking).

2) mountain bike thumb clickies
3) 105 hubs
4) 105 crankset (compact?)

Triple, like the previous poster said.

agreed.


5) 105 front derailleur
6) atb 11-32 cassette

Are they really going to need an 11 or even 12?

Need? No. Want? Quite possibly. It seems the clients are likely to
be cycling newbies. Newbies don't spin, and usually end up in the
smallest cog. Not sure what the consequences would be of denying them
this indulgence; don't be surprised if they complain that the high gear
is too low, as absurd as that is!

Keep in mind that client desires at this level are not likely driven by
an understanding of efficient cycling, nor the corresponding physiology.
In addition to asking this group for technical advice, some
experimentation with the target audience is called for.


7) mountain bike rear derailleur
8) aluminum cyclocross frame with clearance
9) 700x25 tires

Why not try something a little bigger. Like fat slicks

Or even 35mm tyres, for just a little extra comfort.

Agreed.

Mark J.

Off topic, I suppose, but every time I read this subject line I think
about a touring company of a stage production.

Perhaps the bicycle version of "Oklahoma!" - featuring that classic,
"Surly with the Brooks on Top."

Treks and 'Dales will all go home early
When I take a ride on my Surly
When I take a ride on the Surly with the Brooks on top!
Watch those rivets, see how they glisten
It don't squeak much if you don't really listen
Jealous folks will peek from their Nissans and their eyes will pop!
At that shiny green Surly with the Brooks on the top.

nmp wrote:
M-gineering wrote:

nmp wrote:


I think you will need plenty of spare parts too.


Yes, and figure out how you are going to unload and replace your current
bikes (neutral graphics or repaint?) every year to keep the fleet fresh

That is not just logic, that is the kind of practical advice that only
someone who actually knows what he is talking about would give

sorry, my mistake

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

In article
,
Marian wrote:

This is a little unexpected. I knew that my friend Ji Yang was
planning on setting up a bike touring company for trips around Hainan,
and I knew that I was going to be in on it, and I recently knew that
he was going to ask the mother of a riding buddy of ours for some
venture capital...

But I did not expect that said mom (who is a very successful
businesswoman and already uber wealthy) would have very VERY big
ideas. It's nice when the person you present with an idea when you
ask for venture capital says "how about you do this other thing" five
times as big and I give you ten times as much money as you asked for.

Which is why we're about to go buy 40 bikes.

Well, mostly - he. I'm in but I'm mostly on the sidelines since I've
got a bike race and two telecommuting jobs right now. Doesn't really
give me enough time to also start a touring company.

I'm angling for us *not* getting forty 105 equipped road bikes with
brifters (mom's idea) cause anyone Chinese who is enough into bike to
have any idea how to use a brifter will be bringing their own bike
with them.

I want to bounce some ideas off people and see if you think my
preferred equipment choices would be good for not especially good (or
strong) riders who will be paying relatively large sums of money per
person.

The riders will be going on generally excellent roads with some
hills. They are unlikely to carry luggage in anything other than a
support vehicle. They are unlikely to ride in the rain.

1) flat bar OR butterfly bars
2) mountain bike thumb clickies
3) 105 hubs
4) 105 crankset (compact?)
5) 105 front derailleur
6) atb 11-32 cassette
7) mountain bike rear derailleur
8) aluminum cyclocross frame with clearance
9) 700x25 tires

I'm thinking this should come in around 3000rmb a bike or less
(especially considering that we'll be buying 40 at once), leaving
enough for the place in Shenzhen that charges 500rmb/frame+fork to do
custom paint jobs and get each bike with a Hainan theme and the
company name painted on the downtube.

What do you think of the equipment list?

For your consideration:

Some bicycles should have drop bars.
622x25 tires might be too narrow, 622x32 probably better
threaded eyes on the drop outs and fork ends
racks
mudguards and mud flaps
hard, not squishy saddles

Also you need a plan for fitting people to a bicycle,
and coaching them into good riding habits.

--
Michael Press

Marian wrote:
This is a little unexpected. I knew that my friend Ji Yang was
planning on setting up a bike touring company for trips around Hainan,
and I knew that I was going to be in on it, and I recently knew that
he was going to ask the mother of a riding buddy of ours for some
venture capital...

But I did not expect that said mom (who is a very successful
businesswoman and already uber wealthy) would have very VERY big
ideas. It's nice when the person you present with an idea when you
ask for venture capital says "how about you do this other thing" five
times as big and I give you ten times as much money as you asked for.

Which is why we're about to go buy 40 bikes.

Well, mostly - he. I'm in but I'm mostly on the sidelines since I've
got a bike race and two telecommuting jobs right now. Doesn't really
give me enough time to also start a touring company.

I'm angling for us *not* getting forty 105 equipped road bikes with
brifters (mom's idea) cause anyone Chinese who is enough into bike to
have any idea how to use a brifter will be bringing their own bike
with them.

I want to bounce some ideas off people and see if you think my
preferred equipment choices would be good for not especially good (or
strong) riders who will be paying relatively large sums of money per
person.

The riders will be going on generally excellent roads with some
hills. They are unlikely to carry luggage in anything other than a
support vehicle. They are unlikely to ride in the rain.

1) flat bar OR butterfly bars

Look at the bars at
"http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/handlebars_stems_and_tape?page=2#product=none".

Most riders will likely prefer one of the upright bar choices.

2) mountain bike thumb clickies
3) 105 hubs
4) 105 crankset (compact?)
5) 105 front derailleur
6) atb 11-32 cassette
7) mountain bike rear derailleur
8) aluminum cyclocross frame with clearance
9) 700x25 tires

Do 700 x 35 or 700 x 38


I'm thinking this should come in around 3000rmb a bike or less
(especially considering that we'll be buying 40 at once), leaving
enough for the place in Shenzhen that charges 500rmb/frame+fork to do
custom paint jobs and get each bike with a Hainan theme and the
company name painted on the downtube.

What do you think of the equipment list?

You should get some low step-over frame models.

Anything I should change?

Go with adjustable height stems. If you don't get quill stems, there are
several companies that make quick-adjust systems for threadless headsets.

Make sure the seat tube is long enough for a good range of height
adjustments.

Use adjustable reach (in addition to adjustable height) stems.

Be prepared for pedal swaps if people have their own shoes.

Handlebar bags with the company logo for people to keep their small
cameras in (it's good advertising too).

Rear racks that actually fit the bicycle properly.

Sufficient water bottle cages, two on every bicycle.