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#101
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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.
Sandy wrote: Can we let it drop, and maybe he'll get more creative. Or disappear. I don't see his posts any longer, unless others repeat and answer them. Just a nudge toward a workable, easy solution. I've got kids in the house and am used to abuse g. (quiet thud, sound of steps backing off a few paces). --D-y |
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#102
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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.
Jasper Janssen writes:
That part is hardened, and was made by Campagnolo, while the stays are not. And you're wrong about the method of construction. The forged dropouts are forged in one piece. They are brazed into the frame. There is normally no welding involved. And they are not hardened. You saying forging doesn't harden steel? No, it doesn't. Forging does things to the steel that cause it to be harder, but it doesn't harden it. We've been through this too often. The term hardening is a misnomer similar to chain stretch. In its primary sense, hardness is the elasticity of the substance and that remains unchanged. The modulus of elasticity of carpentry nails and HS drills is the same while yield strength is vastly different, the stress at which they take a set when bent. Alloying, work hardening, and heat treatment all affect the yield stress but not the modulus of elasticity. Probably the main reason it was called hardness is that a "hardened" punch can but a dimple in a steel sample that has not been "hardened". Beyond that, the lossiness of the sample changes with "hardening" so that a nail makes a clunk when struck while a HS Drill rings. All this has little bearing on the subject at hand because the dropouts are not "hardened" and yield as easily as steel tubes to which they are attached, that are also not treated, heat or otherwise. Jobst Brandt |
#103
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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.
RonSonic wrote:
If he produced a design that was rugged, light and economical to produce (the holy trinity of bike engineering) and found that while freewheeling there was a small and benign runout, why would he change it. It's not small. We're talking 2 mm of wobble. That looks like it's either "something wrong" or a deliberate insertion of eccentricity. The aesthetic pleasure of such perfection will be trumped immediately by the reliable, light, cheap triumvirate. I need science, here, not portmanteau economics. --Blair "I'll save that for axle width." |
#104
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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.
Ed Sullivan wrote:
Blair P. Houghton wrote: Ed Sullivan wrote: Dear Blair P. Houghton Go away and never come back. Thanks, Ed You're already dead, Ed. "And your show was overrated." Dear Blair P. Houghton, I live in the hearts and memories of millions. So do Adolph Hitler and Mike Godwin. --Blair "This thread's overness is now self-referential." |
#105
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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.
Rick wrote:
Blair P. Houghton wrote: Dennis P. Harris wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:14:27 GMT in rec.bicycles.tech, Blair P. Houghton wrote: You say it's easy, why don't you pony up and indemnify the process against any sort of mechanical error for the $20k or so this frame is really worth to me. oh, bullpucky. no frame is worth that much, and you're just obsessive. PLONK. I work about 100 feet from a guy who paid $3 million for a baseball he never hit himself. There are only two reasons one pays $3M for a baseball: 1) bragging rights 2) they think they can sell it for more in the future Neither of these apply to your bike frame. Realistically, your frame is worth hundreds, not thousands. No one will pay for your sentiment, no insurance will indemnify for it either. Only two reasons. You don't understand the economics of irrational actors nearly as much as you think. Get a copy of Greg Mankiw's treatise on it and study up. Conversely, in the right context, no frame is worth the price of postage. Wrong. I shipped a frame/fork to Colorado (from California) at the beginning of the summer. $16. The frame was certainly worth more than $16. I don't want that frame. You'd have to pay the postage to ship it to me. --Blair "In the right context, he repeated..." |
#106
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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.
Rick wrote:
Blair P. Houghton wrote: StaceyJ wrote: Blair P. Houghton wrote: ---snipping Blair's concerns--- Ok. Simple solution. Ditch the Neuvations. Look for a pair of NOS 7 speed freehubs (E-bay has tons). These will be 126mm spacing. Have a Some will. Not many mention 126mm in the ads, and those that do aren't NOS, they're recycled. And 36 spokes... And what is the problem with 36 spokes? Or older hubs? I have a We're going aero here. Older hubs would be fine. But I want to use the spokes and rim from this Neuvation I now have. 24 hole rim == constraint = 24-hole hub. Hard to find those in NOS. But if I could, I would. It'd be nice to keep the Neuvation rim and spokes (they're all aero) and find a compatible hub. But how many 24-spoke, 126-mm hubs are there? What's the obsession with those rims and spokes? It's not an obsession. It's an economization and a desire to try them out. If I could trade them straight up for something similar, I might. And 24 spokes is a recipe for problems at some point. PLONK, and then the wheel has a major wobble and you are consigned to carrying the bike home. That could happen with any spoke count. And I'm using the 20-spoke front wheel I got. --Blair "Maybe I need alloy dubs..." |
#107
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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.
wrote:
Blair P. Houghton wrote: Or I could tell you to take your bad attitude about a simple problem and shove it up your ass. But then I'd have a bad attitude about a simple problem. But then it'd be your fault. So shove it up your ass. --Blair "Thanks for the moral authority." Let's see. I, and several others, some with volumes of experience, Appeal to popularity; argumentum ad verecundiam; offered you some advice that follows accepted practices; advice you post hoc ergo propter hoc; asked for to start out with. You didn't know what to do in the first false cause*; * (i asked for advice, got some in an area i did not want to pursue, asked for different advice, and some people persisted in giving the advice in the area i had rejected; others began berating me for rejecting it, though i'd done nothing antisocial in the process of rejecting it, simply stating that i preferred a different solution) place. You didn't know how the DO's were attached to the frame, you nit; *(care to define weld and braze without reference to melted metal?) thought the Campy DO's were "hardened", and you seemed to think that false presumption*; (they are hardened by forging) the posters would suggest a risky procedure (given a sound frame). You true enough*; * (what's riskier; bending a frame or getting an axle that fit?) bragged about being able to curl 70lbs with each hand, yet seemed to have problems getting the stays spread a quarter of an inch to put that wheel in there. failure to pay attention*; * (i bragged about curling 70 lbs with each hand in order to show that i'm not kidding when i say the frame is stiffer than i expected it to be) You ordered that rear wheel without aparently knowing about spacing issues, failure to pay attention*; * (i admitted in the original post that i had somehow measured my rear dropout spacing wrong mm before i even started looking at buying a new rear wheel) and then went wandering through the parts dept. looking for axles, spacers, cogs that would solve your problem, instead of doing as Jobst Brandt said, which would have taken maybe 15 minutes, argumentum ad verecundiam; or taken the frame to a pro shop for a (possibly more accurate) alignment with the "tip tools" that I supplied a "picture story" link to, since you didn't seem to have any familiarity with the subject at hand. false presumption*; * (if i'm not willing to bend the stays, am i willing to bend the dropouts even more?) The problem, and the "bad attitude" is that you, even apparently lacking *any* knowledge about cold setting or DO alignment, didn't hear what you wanted to hear. I said that I didn't want to hear that the first time someone said "bend the frame." And I said it politely. Others apparently didn't hear what they wanted to hear from me. They insisted I bend the frame, rather than using their massive experience to suggest the rest of the possible solutions. Someone got testy, and I responded in kind. Welcome to the Internet. Is that your ass on the floor? No, don't get up; I'll hand it back to you. Got any more clever comebacks? You mean besides a whole stack of annotations of your fallacious reasoning? Riding that bike yet? --TP Been riding it the whole time. The old rear wheel wasn't broken. The old front wheel just had a spoke-hole rivet sliding around on one spoke. The only degradation in my riding experience is that I can't fit the sending ring for my Avocet 30 computer onto the funky non-round front hub without doing some creative zip-tying. But I'm in the market for a computer anyway, so when I get into a bike-part buying mood again (got a couple of other priorities at the moment) I'll probably solve that. Without your help, I'd bet. --Blair "I'd pay off that bet win or lose if you'd promise not to make me laugh this hard ever again." |
#108
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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.
"Blair P. Houghton" wrote in message ... Rick wrote: Blair P. Houghton wrote: StaceyJ wrote: Blair P. Houghton wrote: ---snipping Blair's concerns--- Ok. Simple solution. Ditch the Neuvations. Look for a pair of NOS 7 speed freehubs (E-bay has tons). These will be 126mm spacing. Have a Some will. Not many mention 126mm in the ads, and those that do aren't NOS, they're recycled. And 36 spokes... And what is the problem with 36 spokes? Or older hubs? I have a We're going aero here. Older hubs would be fine. But I want to use the spokes and rim from this Neuvation I now have. 24 hole rim == constraint = 24-hole hub. Hard to find those in NOS. But if I could, I would. It'd be nice to keep the Neuvation rim and spokes (they're all aero) and find a compatible hub. But how many 24-spoke, 126-mm hubs are there? What's the obsession with those rims and spokes? It's not an obsession. It's an economization and a desire to try them out. If I could trade them straight up for something similar, I might. And 24 spokes is a recipe for problems at some point. PLONK, and then the wheel has a major wobble and you are consigned to carrying the bike home. That could happen with any spoke count. And I'm using the 20-spoke front wheel I got. --Blair "Maybe I need alloy dubs..." When I upgraded my older bike I had to get new wheels. These wheels are low spoke count and fairly light. I have to say that I did not notice that much of a difference while riding compared to my 25 year old 36 spoke wheels. You may find that solving your wheel problem may end up not being worth it. By the way, when I spread the stays on my bike it only took five minutes with a wood working spreader clamp. It's only about 3/16 of an inch. Neal |
#109
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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:44:05 GMT Blair P. Houghton wrote:
Jim Adney wrote: If you care to stop by sometime, I have a supply of Campy 1010s, 1010As, and 1010Bs which I'll let you take a file to. None of them are hardened. Not the verticals, either. You saying forging doesn't harden steel? That's correct. Forging certainly improves other properties, but it doesn't harden. The proof is in the finished object. If you take a file to a hardened piece of steel it will not dig in but will just slide across the surface. If you take a file to a dropout the file will readily dig in. This is a fairly standard test, and a lot of machinists will keep a small file in their pocket just to test material they're about to work with. - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- |
#110
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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.
Blair P. Houghton wrote: wrote: Blair P. Houghton wrote: That part is hardened, and was made by Campagnolo, while the stays are not. And you're wrong about the method of construction. The forged dropouts are forged in one piece. They are brazed into the frame. There is normally no welding involved. And they are not hardened. You saying forging doesn't harden steel? --Blair "News to the steel." Forging doesn't harden steel. Or, more specifically, as it's usually done, forging doesn't harden steel to any practical degree. Others have described the common "file test" for steel parts. Steels that are hardened to any practical degree won't be easily cut by a file. Try a good file on your dropouts. My bet is a file will readily cut into them. I've heard of dropouts that had (IIRC) stainless steel faces brazed on to the surfaces that the QR clamps, but this is a fancy-pants custom frame builder's tiny detail trick. I suppose Holdsworth _could_ have done this, but I doubt it. So, again: And you're wrong about the method of construction. The forged dropouts are forged in one piece. They are brazed into the frame. There is normally no welding involved. And they are not hardened. But again, what you do with your bike is up to you. - Frank Krygowski |
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