Octalink ES25 replacement?

On 2017-08-15 14:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2017 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:

[...]


... They do not start creaking after a short
time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction
under
load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have
helped replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These
weren't much bigger and they are exposed to way more load
and hammering. Fully loaded bike, rider, tent, food, booze,
clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over rutted trails
at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k miles.
They weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup
isn't plastic I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was
but maybe I am out of luck for the MTB even though it's a
2103 model year.


You misunderstood Tom and probably most of our comments recently.

A crank for square taper has a set of matching BB options.

A spline crank has a different set of options.

One of the many outboard systems has a crank/spindle with matching
bearing/bearing cup protocols.

Each system has recommended parts and then crappier cheaper aftermarket
alternatives and then again pricier better quality options as well.


I think I understood it. It means if I go outboard I need new cranks
which is something I might do later (when the current ones are shot).
Then the challenge will be to find a combination of outboard BB plus
crank set that will result in the same chain line as my current Shimano
ES25 and M522 and offers 42/32/24T or something close.

My MTB buddy has a titanium hardtail with outboard bearings. The cranks
don't look much different from mine but his frame is. IOW it's not that
his small chain ring is cradling the right-side outboard bearing, which
is what I'd need.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 3:47:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 14:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2017 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:

[...]


... They do not start creaking after a short
time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction
under
load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have
helped replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These
weren't much bigger and they are exposed to way more load
and hammering. Fully loaded bike, rider, tent, food, booze,
clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over rutted trails
at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k miles.
They weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup
isn't plastic I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was
but maybe I am out of luck for the MTB even though it's a
2103 model year.


You misunderstood Tom and probably most of our comments recently.

A crank for square taper has a set of matching BB options.

A spline crank has a different set of options.

One of the many outboard systems has a crank/spindle with matching
bearing/bearing cup protocols.

Each system has recommended parts and then crappier cheaper aftermarket
alternatives and then again pricier better quality options as well.


I think I understood it. It means if I go outboard I need new cranks
which is something I might do later (when the current ones are shot).
Then the challenge will be to find a combination of outboard BB plus
crank set that will result in the same chain line as my current Shimano
ES25 and M522 and offers 42/32/24T or something close.

My MTB buddy has a titanium hardtail with outboard bearings. The cranks
don't look much different from mine but his frame is. IOW it's not that
his small chain ring is cradling the right-side outboard bearing, which
is what I'd need.

Replacement may be sooner than you think. The "ticking" you described in your original post and "slight play" is typical of smashed splines in the crank. You may have a crank problem rather than a BB problem -- or both. Had you removed and re-installed the crank recently? Before you dump money on a new BB, try tightening the hell out of the crank and see what happens. If the ticking and slop goes away and then comes back, your splines are shot.

On 8/15/2017 6:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 3:47:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 14:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2017 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:

[...]


... They do not start creaking after a short
time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction
under
load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have
helped replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These
weren't much bigger and they are exposed to way more load
and hammering. Fully loaded bike, rider, tent, food, booze,
clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over rutted trails
at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k miles.
They weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup
isn't plastic I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was
but maybe I am out of luck for the MTB even though it's a
2103 model year.


You misunderstood Tom and probably most of our comments recently.

A crank for square taper has a set of matching BB options.

A spline crank has a different set of options.

One of the many outboard systems has a crank/spindle with matching
bearing/bearing cup protocols.

Each system has recommended parts and then crappier cheaper aftermarket
alternatives and then again pricier better quality options as well.


I think I understood it. It means if I go outboard I need new cranks
which is something I might do later (when the current ones are shot).
Then the challenge will be to find a combination of outboard BB plus
crank set that will result in the same chain line as my current Shimano
ES25 and M522 and offers 42/32/24T or something close.

My MTB buddy has a titanium hardtail with outboard bearings. The cranks
don't look much different from mine but his frame is. IOW it's not that
his small chain ring is cradling the right-side outboard bearing, which
is what I'd need.

Replacement may be sooner than you think. The "ticking" you described in your original post and "slight play" is typical of smashed splines in the crank. You may have a crank problem rather than a BB problem -- or both. Had you removed and re-installed the crank recently? Before you dump money on a new BB, try tightening the hell out of the crank and see what happens. If the ticking and slop goes away and then comes back, your splines are shot.


+1
That was my first reply in this thread.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:14:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-14 19:03, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:31:38 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-14 10:17, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/14/2017 12:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 08:51, wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

Quit whining and buy a 105 compact crank with a $16 external
bearing BB. Your bike has no historical value and maintaining a bad
standard will just bring you back in one or two years with the same
complaints -- and the endless comparisons to the longevity of 25lb
car parts.

Well I have to agree with your idea if not your attitude.


When buying a $1k mainstream bicycle I expect things to last. People
with external bearings out here fare no better as their BBs also
develop creaks and bearing play after a few thousand miles.

It's similar with road bikes. A friend only buys high-class hubs
costing north of $200 a pop. They don't last longer than mine.

You need to move out of that Bermuda-Triangle-hell-hole where everything
breaks, nothing works, everything is dangerous and bicyclists can barely
survive.


If you read more carefully, as suggested often, you'd have noticed that
it isn't broken but simply _worn_ out.

But even a casual look at available You Tube films shows a guy
successfully rebuilding a cartridge BB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lar7mIMmTRE


It's a square taper BB.


And another replacing the O.B. model's bearings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hklHC2ae04g


That one would not fit my MTB.


My mother used to say, when I was whining about something, "The Good
Lord helps those who help themselves".


I have seen such videos when looking for a replacement for my road bike.
As I have mentioned in this thread one of the objectives is not to have
that dreaded plastic left cup anymore. Plastic has IMHO no place in a
high-stress area on a bicycle. For the road bike I could replace with
UN-55. It has an aluminum left cup which isn't ideal but at least not
plastic. So it'll hopefully last longer than 5k miles.

You seem to have a multitude of reasons why you cannot undertake
something that other's have successfully accomplished... and posted a
video showing how to do it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:24:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings.

There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width
or they are simply wider. ...


Right now there is less than 0.020" clearance so this would require
buying new cranks and throwing out the current ones I have that are
still good (less a tooth here and there but who cares). I'd also have to
try my best to calculate the chain line before ordering, often from
scarce data.


... They do not start creaking after a short
time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under
load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have helped
replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These weren't much bigger
and they are exposed to way more load and hammering. Fully loaded bike,
rider, tent, food, booze, clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over
rutted trails at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k
miles. They weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't plastic
I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe I am out of luck
for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model year.

You keep talking about that plastic cup. Is this because you *think*
it might fail or because it *has* failed? I suspect the former as had
it actually failed you would have trumpeted the fact to the Heavens.

Mr. Muzi probably has more experience with those cartridge BB's then
(again) probably the rest of the group combined. I wonder whether he
might care to comment on the frequency, in his experience, that those
plastic cups fail?

Of course Mr. Muzi is not from California and I'm sure he doesn't
spend all his time drinking home brewed beer, but still, his
experiences might prove informative.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/15/2017 7:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:24:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings.

There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width
or they are simply wider. ...


Right now there is less than 0.020" clearance so this would require
buying new cranks and throwing out the current ones I have that are
still good (less a tooth here and there but who cares). I'd also have to
try my best to calculate the chain line before ordering, often from
scarce data.


... They do not start creaking after a short
time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under
load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have helped
replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These weren't much bigger
and they are exposed to way more load and hammering. Fully loaded bike,
rider, tent, food, booze, clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over
rutted trails at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k
miles. They weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't plastic
I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe I am out of luck
for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model year.

You keep talking about that plastic cup. Is this because you *think*
it might fail or because it *has* failed? I suspect the former as had
it actually failed you would have trumpeted the fact to the Heavens.

Mr. Muzi probably has more experience with those cartridge BB's then
(again) probably the rest of the group combined. I wonder whether he
might care to comment on the frequency, in his experience, that those
plastic cups fail?

Of course Mr. Muzi is not from California and I'm sure he doesn't
spend all his time drinking home brewed beer, but still, his
experiences might prove informative.


You are correct. Nylon cups, while ugly and inexpensive
(perhaps a feature, maybe merely declasse) are much less
trouble than steel or aluminum cups. They don't move,
corrode or crack as metal cups sometimes do /in extremis/ .

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:47:56 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 14:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2017 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:

[...]


... They do not start creaking after a short
time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction
under
load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have
helped replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These
weren't much bigger and they are exposed to way more load
and hammering. Fully loaded bike, rider, tent, food, booze,
clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over rutted trails
at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k miles.
They weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup
isn't plastic I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was
but maybe I am out of luck for the MTB even though it's a
2103 model year.


You misunderstood Tom and probably most of our comments recently.

A crank for square taper has a set of matching BB options.

A spline crank has a different set of options.

One of the many outboard systems has a crank/spindle with matching
bearing/bearing cup protocols.

Each system has recommended parts and then crappier cheaper aftermarket
alternatives and then again pricier better quality options as well.


I think I understood it. It means if I go outboard I need new cranks
which is something I might do later (when the current ones are shot).
Then the challenge will be to find a combination of outboard BB plus
crank set that will result in the same chain line as my current Shimano
ES25 and M522 and offers 42/32/24T or something close.

Quite obviously you need to match the BB to the crank set. A square
tapered BB, for example, won't fit an Octalink crank set.

As for the chain line, that you worry so much about, those clever
little Nipponese have already designed and are making their external
bearing crank sets to provide the same chain line as their previous
BB's and crank sets provide.

My MTB buddy has a titanium hardtail with outboard bearings. The cranks
don't look much different from mine but his frame is. IOW it's not that
his small chain ring is cradling the right-side outboard bearing, which
is what I'd need.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 7:16:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 18:37, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 07:04:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-13 17:38, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 09:31:09 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-13 01:07, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 07:03:54 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-11 19:59, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:59:50 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-11 16:52, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:00:32 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to
a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever
so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.

How long do you guys let that go before replacing?

Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than
5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

I see Octalink bottom brackets for sale for four British pounds :-)
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/c...t/rp-prod34653
About $5.00.


I saw that as well. It's a clearance item in an odd diameter. $6.99 when
clicking the link in the US. I guess in new-speak that's called "target
group pricing" or something similar :-)


I believe in the grocery store marketing it is called a "loss Leader".


I meant different prices for different regions or people. One big player
recently got into trouble for that which netted them a not-so-honorary
mention in the Wall Street Journal.

Why ever not different prices for different people. My bike shop
certainly does it. If you come in they will charge you one price. If I
come in they charge me 15% less. My guess is that it is not uncommon.


Quantity discounts or loyal-customer rebates at a local store are ok.
Often people get 10% of at the LBS if they bought their bike there.
However, if an online retailer changes pricing on people depending on
what their zip code is or a bank sets loan rates based on the color of
one's skin that is a slippery slope.

Why? It is almost a normal practice and to my personal experience is
done just about everywhere I've been. In Maine the "summer folks" are
charged more then a "native", in fact this was so common that the term
"summer rate" was commonly used when I lived there. In every Asian
country I've lived in a "white skinned" foreigner was either charged a
higher price or not given as large a discount as a native. It is
probably not politically correct (in the U.S.) to say "white skinned"
although that is a commonly heard description in most Asian countries
:-(


You have probably been away from the US too long. Discrimination based
on race, gender, ethnicity and so on is a punishable offense here.

Thank the Lord I don't live in the U.S. any more. A place where people
can't say what they think.


In Phuket, Thailand the Bar Girls even have a "High Season" rate and a
"Low Season" rate. High Season is of course, when the tourists flock
in.


Setting prices higher or lower is fine as long as that isn't done based
on the looks of who is coming in.

I can assure you that in just about every Asian country I have lived
in, and that is six of them, you are treated by what you look like. In
fact in some of the countries you are treated not only by how you look
but also by what you sound like.

But why ever not? Do you think that humans aren't clannish? My family
against your family, my village against your village and my nation
against your nation, not to mention my god against your god, seems to
have been the determining factor in human relationships through out
history and is still true today.

Is it really better to be required by law to smile and say, "Yes Sir"
and "No Sir" while all the time thinking "you miserable no good
*whatever*" way down deep inside?

Required by law to be a liar?



In fact, if we go to an open market, where bargaining is the norm, my
wife will always be quoted a cheaper price then I would. (foreigners
are all rich!)


That is normal. We even had that where I lived in the Netherlands. If
you spoke the language with a local accent (I did) you have an easier
time negotiating a good deal for food items at the open air market.

[...]


I also see an ES300 for $16.68 and there are also Shimano Dura-Ace
Octalink BB's and although I don't know whether they fit, Dura-Ace is
usually considered as very high quality.


It may be time to write to Shimano, hoping they'll answer. To me this
flurry of model numbers is confusing and not all are 100% compatible.
The cranks have to fit and the chain line should remain roughly the same.

Take it to a good bike shop :-) I have a shop in Bangkok and another
in Phuket where they seem to know what they're doing.... as long as I
know enough to ask the right questions, that is.


I was hoping that someone had the same issue with paltry ES25 lifetime
and could tell me "Here, buy that one, lasts a lot longer" (and where it
fits well).

[...]

I wonder how popular the Octalink pedals were? I can't remember ever
seeing one on the road, or maybe I didn't look :-) Perhaps they
weren't that common that people talk about them.


AFAICT they were on all the bikes I looked at in early 2014. What do
bikes in the $1k range have in Thailand? Square taper is a good system
but I have only seen that on older bikes here like on my 1982 road bike.
I don't know why they went to Octalink. Maybe it saves half a few
hundred milligrams.

To be honest I don't pay as close attention to new bikes as I might.
Partly, I suppose, because I have three road bikes and a "knock
around" bike, all of which, well with the exception of one road bike
that I built myself, are more then ten years old, one of the road
bikes may be from the 1970's, and I don't lust after something just
because it is new.

But honestly, I can't ever remember seeing either a bike with an
octalink crank or for that matter any octalink parts in shops. Which
of course may only mean that I didn't have my eyes open that day :-)


You can't see it unless you have the clerk pull the spec sheet or take a
crank off.


But as for why they were made, I suspect that like many of the New!
Innovative! Wonderful! things that appear on the market they were
built simply to be New! Innovative! and Wonderful!

Are the modern press in BB bearings an actual improvement?


Most definitely not.


However they are much cheaper to manufacture :-)

... Or are they
just "same old" but in a new style "that we can announce as an
improvement and charge more money for"?


They are cheap alright but, as unfortunately usual for bike parts, have
a very paltry service life. For the same money my MTB buddy bought a
massive front wheel bearing assembly for his Chevy Express van and they
last hundreds of thousands of miles. Not just 5000.

That is a non sensible response. A front hub assembly for a Chevy
weighs in the neighborhood of 20 lbs... nearly as much as my entire
bicycle.


Gimmee a BB that weighs a pound and lasts forever.

That ship sailed when you got Octalink. Square drive -- maybe, but it would require maintenance. Any sealed unit (internal or external bearing) will fail after a period of time -- sometimes a very long period.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 7:16:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 18:37, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 07:04:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-13 17:38, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 09:31:09 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-13 01:07, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 07:03:54 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-11 19:59, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:59:50 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-11 16:52, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:00:32 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when
warmed up, sounds similar to a hot car engine
after it is turned off. It has also develoved
an ever so slight play, just a few mils. It is
an Shimano ES25 Octalink.

How long do you guys let that go before
replacing?

Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for
this that lasts longer than 5k miles and
doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

I see Octalink bottom brackets for sale for four
British pounds :-)
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/c...t/rp-prod34653


About $5.00.


I saw that as well. It's a clearance item in an odd
diameter. $6.99 when clicking the link in the US. I
guess in new-speak that's called "target group
pricing" or something similar :-)


I believe in the grocery store marketing it is called
a "loss Leader".


I meant different prices for different regions or
people. One big player recently got into trouble for
that which netted them a not-so-honorary mention in the
Wall Street Journal.

Why ever not different prices for different people. My
bike shop certainly does it. If you come in they will
charge you one price. If I come in they charge me 15%
less. My guess is that it is not uncommon.


Quantity discounts or loyal-customer rebates at a local
store are ok. Often people get 10% of at the LBS if they
bought their bike there. However, if an online retailer
changes pricing on people depending on what their zip code
is or a bank sets loan rates based on the color of one's
skin that is a slippery slope.

Why? It is almost a normal practice and to my personal
experience is done just about everywhere I've been. In Maine
the "summer folks" are charged more then a "native", in fact
this was so common that the term "summer rate" was commonly
used when I lived there. In every Asian country I've lived in
a "white skinned" foreigner was either charged a higher price
or not given as large a discount as a native. It is probably
not politically correct (in the U.S.) to say "white skinned"
although that is a commonly heard description in most Asian
countries :-(


You have probably been away from the US too long.
Discrimination based on race, gender, ethnicity and so on is a
punishable offense here.

Thank the Lord I don't live in the U.S. any more. A place where
people can't say what they think.


In Phuket, Thailand the Bar Girls even have a "High Season"
rate and a "Low Season" rate. High Season is of course, when
the tourists flock in.


Setting prices higher or lower is fine as long as that isn't
done based on the looks of who is coming in.

I can assure you that in just about every Asian country I have
lived in, and that is six of them, you are treated by what you
look like. In fact in some of the countries you are treated not
only by how you look but also by what you sound like.

But why ever not? Do you think that humans aren't clannish? My
family against your family, my village against your village and
my nation against your nation, not to mention my god against your
god, seems to have been the determining factor in human
relationships through out history and is still true today.

Is it really better to be required by law to smile and say, "Yes
Sir" and "No Sir" while all the time thinking "you miserable no
good *whatever*" way down deep inside?

Required by law to be a liar?



In fact, if we go to an open market, where bargaining is
the norm, my wife will always be quoted a cheaper price
then I would. (foreigners are all rich!)


That is normal. We even had that where I lived in the
Netherlands. If you spoke the language with a local accent
(I did) you have an easier time negotiating a good deal for
food items at the open air market.

[...]


I also see an ES300 for $16.68 and there are also
Shimano Dura-Ace Octalink BB's and although I don't
know whether they fit, Dura-Ace is usually considered
as very high quality.


It may be time to write to Shimano, hoping they'll
answer. To me this flurry of model numbers is confusing
and not all are 100% compatible. The cranks have to fit
and the chain line should remain roughly the same.

Take it to a good bike shop :-) I have a shop in Bangkok
and another in Phuket where they seem to know what
they're doing.... as long as I know enough to ask the
right questions, that is.


I was hoping that someone had the same issue with
paltry ES25 lifetime and could tell me "Here, buy that
one, lasts a lot longer" (and where it fits well).

[...]

I wonder how popular the Octalink pedals were? I can't
remember ever seeing one on the road, or maybe I didn't
look :-) Perhaps they weren't that common that people
talk about them.


AFAICT they were on all the bikes I looked at in early
2014. What do bikes in the $1k range have in Thailand?
Square taper is a good system but I have only seen that on
older bikes here like on my 1982 road bike. I don't know
why they went to Octalink. Maybe it saves half a few
hundred milligrams.

To be honest I don't pay as close attention to new bikes as I
might. Partly, I suppose, because I have three road bikes and
a "knock around" bike, all of which, well with the exception
of one road bike that I built myself, are more then ten years
old, one of the road bikes may be from the 1970's, and I
don't lust after something just because it is new.

But honestly, I can't ever remember seeing either a bike with
an octalink crank or for that matter any octalink parts in
shops. Which of course may only mean that I didn't have my
eyes open that day :-)


You can't see it unless you have the clerk pull the spec sheet
or take a crank off.


But as for why they were made, I suspect that like many of
the New! Innovative! Wonderful! things that appear on the
market they were built simply to be New! Innovative! and
Wonderful!

Are the modern press in BB bearings an actual improvement?


Most definitely not.


However they are much cheaper to manufacture :-)

... Or are they just "same old" but in a new style "that we
can announce as an improvement and charge more money for"?


They are cheap alright but, as unfortunately usual for bike
parts, have a very paltry service life. For the same money my
MTB buddy bought a massive front wheel bearing assembly for his
Chevy Express van and they last hundreds of thousands of miles.
Not just 5000.

That is a non sensible response. A front hub assembly for a
Chevy weighs in the neighborhood of 20 lbs... nearly as much as
my entire bicycle.


Gimmee a BB that weighs a pound and lasts forever.

That ship sailed when you got Octalink.


When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled there isn't
much choice.


... Square drive -- maybe, but
it would require maintenance. Any sealed unit (internal or external
bearing) will fail after a period of time -- sometimes a very long
period.


I now have a sealed UN-55 BB in my road bike which has square taper
cranks. So far there were adjustable Shimano 600 BBs in there but those
have become unobtanium, at least at reasonable prices.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-08-15 18:07, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2017 7:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:24:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings.

There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width
or they are simply wider. ...


Right now there is less than 0.020" clearance so this would require
buying new cranks and throwing out the current ones I have that are
still good (less a tooth here and there but who cares). I'd also have to
try my best to calculate the chain line before ordering, often from
scarce data.


... They do not start creaking after a short
time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under
load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have helped
replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These weren't much bigger
and they are exposed to way more load and hammering. Fully loaded bike,
rider, tent, food, booze, clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over
rutted trails at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k
miles. They weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't plastic
I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe I am out of luck
for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model year.

You keep talking about that plastic cup. Is this because you *think*
it might fail or because it *has* failed? I suspect the former as had
it actually failed you would have trumpeted the fact to the Heavens.


I have not seen those fail but lot of other plastic parts on bicycles.
Many of which I then replaced with aluminum.


Mr. Muzi probably has more experience with those cartridge BB's then
(again) probably the rest of the group combined. I wonder whether he
might care to comment on the frequency, in his experience, that those
plastic cups fail?

Of course Mr. Muzi is not from California and I'm sure he doesn't
spend all his time drinking home brewed beer, but still, his
experiences might prove informative.


You are correct. Nylon cups, while ugly and inexpensive (perhaps a
feature, maybe merely declasse) are much less trouble than steel or
aluminum cups. They don't move, corrode or crack as metal cups sometimes
do /in extremis/ .


Thanks. Then I'll just rip the thing out and replace it with another
ES25. And then 5k miles later another ...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/