|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#81
|
|||
|
|||
Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 7:01:00 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/14/2017 6:11 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/14/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4, wrote: Snipped The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The Federal government is nearly as bad. Snipped You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done anything more than patched them in the most egregious places. Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just themselves. Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes. We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!) times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe. And yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as bike paths. You complain a lot about America. Why not move back to Europe? Since November I am not complaining too much :-) When one has lived in several countries one can compare and try to bring some of the better ideas to the new place. America has some major upsides versus Europe such as better fostering of free enterprise (on the federal level, not the Californian level) So the only major upside of America you mention doesn't exist in California? But you chose to live in California? You're not sounding brilliant, Joerg. Do you think you are Frank? |
Ads |
#82
|
|||
|
|||
Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure
On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 12:15:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-12 07:24, wrote: On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote: https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit. Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S. has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of distance, and the highest death rate. No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the numbers on slide 6 are what they are. When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands (Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those 20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with fast traffic at times which some potentially interested cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun. But there's no end to that argument. People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not useful in any way. I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would have taken far longer than just biking the whole way. But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate: http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434 "Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-) Yes, that's one of their all-time best. My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence to every destination is ridiculous. And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads. My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn. Out of curiosity, how many is that? Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass closely or leaned on the horn. Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of beep. Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray? A couple of blocks from my home is a store. A bike lane runs along the curb and then ends abruptly a hundred feet from the intersection. This is a right turn must turn right lane plus there are four driveways in and out of the shopping center. So I ride in the middle lane which ends up going straight, instead of in the dangerous bike lane. Almost every time I do that I have people whom I would BLOCK if I were in the bike lane screaming at me to get in the bike lane.. You have to picture this - people are driving in the #2 lane and at the last second pulling into the #3 lane simply to give me grief. And since this is only a couple of blocks from my house I go this way almost every ride. Going in the opposite direction is almost the same situation. The #2 lane is a right turn only and people will drive in that with a perfectly clear #1 lane just to pass close to me. Again - EVERY TIME that I go out with only rare exceptions. They will do this even when you can look ahead and see a heavy truck blocking part of the right lane. So don't use the excuse that this doesn't happen too frequently. Every ride I go on at lease once I get a close pass of someone yelling at me to get out of the way. And even when I'm in a bike lane - people driving and the road bending right will NOT stay in their lane - they will pull almost to the curb crossing completely over the bike lane. The bike lanes are directly adjacent to the parking lane and an SUV or a two door door will totally cover the bike lane and traffic will speed up in order to force you to stop instead of allowing you to go around the blockage.. Sunday on two occasions cars almost turned left into me because they misjudged my speed. And I was wearing a dayglow green jacket. None of Joerg's complaints are unfounded. Because I refuse to be pushed off of a public road doesn't mean that these sorts of things do not frighten the overwhelming majority of people that could be bike riders. I find it offensive to put up with these things every ride and have people on this group pretend that it's all in my or Joerg's head. The only thing I can think is that people that do not see this are either blind or stupid. |
#83
|
|||
|
|||
Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 5:21:44 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:55:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/14/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4, wrote: Snipped The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The Federal government is nearly as bad. Snipped You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done anything more than patched them in the most egregious places. Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just themselves. Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes. We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!) times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe. And yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as bike paths. You complain a lot about America. Why not move back to Europe? What is ignored is that average salaries in Europe are much lower then in 'The land of opportunity". As an example, the Web tells us that the *average* Mechanical Engineering salary in France is 40,250 Euro, approximately US$47,350, while In The Netherlands (the land of bicycles) it is 38,704 Euro, about US$45,534. In the Sacramento area of California it is $70,603. -- Cheers, John B. How much is it in phuket, bang-kok, and manila? |
#85
|
|||
|
|||
Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 8:20:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 12:15:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-12 07:24, wrote: On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote: https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit. Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S. has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of distance, and the highest death rate. No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the numbers on slide 6 are what they are. When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands (Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those 20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with fast traffic at times which some potentially interested cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun. But there's no end to that argument. People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not useful in any way. I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would have taken far longer than just biking the whole way. But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate: http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434 "Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-) Yes, that's one of their all-time best. My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence to every destination is ridiculous. And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads. My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn.. Out of curiosity, how many is that? Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass closely or leaned on the horn. Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of beep. Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray? A couple of blocks from my home is a store. A bike lane runs along the curb and then ends abruptly a hundred feet from the intersection. This is a right turn must turn right lane plus there are four driveways in and out of the shopping center. So I ride in the middle lane which ends up going straight, instead of in the dangerous bike lane. Almost every time I do that I have people whom I would BLOCK if I were in the bike lane screaming at me to get in the bike lane. You have to picture this - people are driving in the #2 lane and at the last second pulling into the #3 lane simply to give me grief. And since this is only a couple of blocks from my house I go this way almost every ride. Going in the opposite direction is almost the same situation. The #2 lane is a right turn only and people will drive in that with a perfectly clear #1 lane just to pass close to me. Again - EVERY TIME that I go out with only rare exceptions. They will do this even when you can look ahead and see a heavy truck blocking part of the right lane. So don't use the excuse that this doesn't happen too frequently. Every ride I go on at lease once I get a close pass of someone yelling at me to get out of the way. And even when I'm in a bike lane - people driving and the road bending right will NOT stay in their lane - they will pull almost to the curb crossing completely over the bike lane. The bike lanes are directly adjacent to the parking lane and an SUV or a two door door will totally cover the bike lane and traffic will speed up in order to force you to stop instead of allowing you to go around the blockage. Sunday on two occasions cars almost turned left into me because they misjudged my speed. And I was wearing a dayglow green jacket. None of Joerg's complaints are unfounded. Because I refuse to be pushed off of a public road doesn't mean that these sorts of things do not frighten the overwhelming majority of people that could be bike riders. I find it offensive to put up with these things every ride and have people on this group pretend that it's all in my or Joerg's head. The only thing I can think is that people that do not see this are either blind or stupid.. That's fair. Traffic can be miserable, but as a practical matter, you're not going to get separate bike paths everywhere. You're going to have to get on the road sometime, even in Amsterdam. So, that means cars and bikes have to learn the rules -- as you know. Frank has a point about education, and maybe he also has balls of steel and can ride anywhere without fear. Not me. There are places where I say "f*** that!" and take a side path or some other less convenient route. Sometimes it's not about fear and more about being unpleasant. OTOH, some bike paths are a PITA, and I prefer the road which others find "scary." Some people have an amazingly low threshold for scary. -- Jay Beattie. |
#86
|
|||
|
|||
Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure
On 8/15/2017 8:20 AM, wrote:
I find it offensive to put up with these things every ride and have people on this group pretend that it's all in my or Joerg's head. The only thing I can think is that people that do not see this are either blind or stupid. They are neither. They have an agenda to promote, and pretending that it's all in your head is essential to promoting that agenda. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#87
|
|||
|
|||
Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:05:08 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2017-08-14 23:15, John B. wrote: On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 22:00:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/14/2017 6:11 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/14/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4, wrote: Snipped The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The Federal government is nearly as bad. Snipped You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done anything more than patched them in the most egregious places. Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just themselves. Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes. We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!) times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe. And yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as bike paths. You complain a lot about America. Why not move back to Europe? Since November I am not complaining too much :-) When one has lived in several countries one can compare and try to bring some of the better ideas to the new place. America has some major upsides versus Europe such as better fostering of free enterprise (on the federal level, not the Californian level) So the only major upside of America you mention doesn't exist in California? To a large extent it doesn't. ... But you chose to live in California? No. My employer chose that. IWe would like to move out of state but moving is such a hassle. One of the main things holding us back is our engagement in church and in the community. We are not special but, for example, it would be hard to find someone else willing to be with Alzheimer's patient (without getting nightmares after every time) and also has certified therapy dogs for this sort of service. You're not sounding brilliant, Joerg. You are the master of premature conclusions. Judging without knowing the facts. Given that the Virgin Group (net worth 5 - 5.5 billion Sterling, estimated in 2014) started with Richard Branson selling bootleg records out of the trunk of his car, it doesn't sound like a business is too difficult to get going in Europe. Look at where he does most of his business though. Today, yes. The point though was that Branson started a business selling bootleg records from the trunk of his car and built it into a billion dollar business. Although you argue that there is so much to impede a startup business in Europe. -- Cheers, John B. |
#88
|
|||
|
|||
Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:09:32 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2017-08-14 20:09, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:45:44 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 13:27, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 10:55:54 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4, wrote: Snipped The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The Federal government is nearly as bad. Snipped You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done anything more than patched them in the most egregious places. Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just themselves. Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes. We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!) times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe. And yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as bike paths. That's it! Try triple that in Portland -- or more, if you have a nice house. ... Time you guys had a taxpayer revolt like the Californian Proposition 13. I know a guy in New York who had a decent academic-level income yet his family was essentially taxed out of their home. There are reasons why New York, Orgeon and lots of other places are not on my list of potential retirement places. What the f*** are you complaining about? You think that for four-measly-thousand you're going to get bike trails to your door. You're crazy! Plus property taxes don't pay for transportation infrastructure -- that is funded through transportation taxes, usually the gas tax with general fund input. http://www.frontiergroup.org/reports/fg/who-pays-roads Quote "Most walking and bicycling takes place on local streets and roads that are primarily paid for through property taxes and other general local taxes". Well, that's just wrong -- particularly for you. AFAIK, property taxes in California may pay a tiny part of certain transportation projects -- like mass transit, highway lighting or pot-hole filling. They're not being used to build bike paths. Look at your tax bill and see if there are any bonds for bicycle infrastructure. And read this: http://www.calbike.org/funding_sources Quote from your link "Most of that is generated by your city or county" So how do they get it? Out of thin air? Print it cladestinely? Local taxes have two major sources, property taxes and sales taxes. We contribute to both and expect something for that. ... After Prop 13, there are few property tax dollars for transportation projects. Maybe SMS can weigh in on this. But I do know you pay practically nothing for property tax. I probably paid that much 20 years ago for a dinger house in a sketchy part of town. Why did you do that? Assuming that you are a normal, intelligent person the question might arise as to why you immigrated almost half way round the world to settle in a state with, perhaps the highest tax burden in the U.S., and now complain about it? -- Cheers, John B. |
#89
|
|||
|
|||
Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 12:15:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-12 07:24, wrote: On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote: https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit. Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S. has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of distance, and the highest death rate. No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the numbers on slide 6 are what they are. When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands (Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those 20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with fast traffic at times which some potentially interested cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun. But there's no end to that argument. People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not useful in any way. I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would have taken far longer than just biking the whole way. But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate: http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434 "Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-) Yes, that's one of their all-time best. My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence to every destination is ridiculous. And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads. My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn. Out of curiosity, how many is that? Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass closely or leaned on the horn. Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of beep. Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray? A couple of blocks from my home is a store. A bike lane runs along the curb and then ends abruptly a hundred feet from the intersection. This is a right turn must turn right lane plus there are four driveways in and out of the shopping center. So I ride in the middle lane which ends up going straight, instead of in the dangerous bike lane. Almost every time I do that I have people whom I would BLOCK if I were in the bike lane screaming at me to get in the bike lane. You have to picture this - people are driving in the #2 lane and at the last second pulling into the #3 lane simply to give me grief. And since this is only a couple of blocks from my house I go this way almost every ride. Going in the opposite direction is almost the same situation. The #2 lane is a right turn only and people will drive in that with a perfectly clear #1 lane just to pass close to me. Again - EVERY TIME that I go out with only rare exceptions. They will do this even when you can look ahead and see a heavy truck blocking part of the right lane. So don't use the excuse that this doesn't happen too frequently. Every ride I go on at lease once I get a close pass of someone yelling at me to get out of the way. And even when I'm in a bike lane - people driving and the road bending right will NOT stay in their lane - they will pull almost to the curb crossing completely over the bike lane. The bike lanes are directly adjacent to the parking lane and an SUV or a two door door will totally cover the bike lane and traffic will speed up in order to force you to stop instead of allowing you to go around the blockage. Sunday on two occasions cars almost turned left into me because they misjudged my speed. And I was wearing a dayglow green jacket. None of Joerg's complaints are unfounded. Because I refuse to be pushed off of a public road doesn't mean that these sorts of things do not frighten the overwhelming majority of people that could be bike riders. I find it offensive to put up with these things every ride and have people on this group pretend that it's all in my or Joerg's head. The only thing I can think is that people that do not see this are either blind or stupid. The Tourist Authority of Thailand dreamed up the nickname "The Land of Smiles" as an indication of how friendly the people are here. I can only assume that your country is named after an orifice in the other end of the body. Given that you are, from your writings, no longer employed one can only speculate on why you don't move. Or is the entire country that way? -- Cheers, John B. |
#90
|
|||
|
|||
Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:25:56 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 5:21:44 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:55:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/14/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4, wrote: Snipped The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The Federal government is nearly as bad. Snipped You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done anything more than patched them in the most egregious places. Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just themselves. Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes. We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!) times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe. And yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as bike paths. You complain a lot about America. Why not move back to Europe? What is ignored is that average salaries in Europe are much lower then in 'The land of opportunity". As an example, the Web tells us that the *average* Mechanical Engineering salary in France is 40,250 Euro, approximately US$47,350, while In The Netherlands (the land of bicycles) it is 38,704 Euro, about US$45,534. In the Sacramento area of California it is $70,603. -- Cheers, John B. How much is it in phuket, bang-kok, and manila? Much, much lower. On the other hand, there is no property tax, for a personal residence, in Thailand. Whether Phuket or Bangkok, which, of course, was the subject being discussed. -- Cheers, John B. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Bicycle Light Theft & Bicycle Parking Infrastructure | sms | Techniques | 18 | March 10th 17 11:51 PM |
Bicycle Infrastructure and Safety: Death in PDX | Jay Beattie | Techniques | 20 | May 26th 12 02:30 AM |
Cycle Infrastructure Design | Paul Luton[_2_] | UK | 15 | November 2nd 08 06:29 PM |
Sprocket design and analysis | bicycle_disciple | Techniques | 3 | October 2nd 06 04:57 PM |
How2 design ergo handle and stress on the arm/elbow | teachndad | Unicycling | 7 | November 22nd 04 09:19 AM |