Actual data for the chain cleaning debate

On 07 Jan 2004 04:37:40 GMT, (TBGibb) may have said:

In article , David Reuteler
writes:

i'm confused -- with her? is this a euphemism for something? like playing
frisbee golf?

The kids played the game, competitively. Have you ever heard the title "soccer
Mom"?

It's an Americanism. He may indeed be unfamiliar with it. It refers
to a woman who gets the duty of hauling her kid (and sometimes
multiple others and some of the gear) to afternoon soccer practice.
Since it's in the US, the field is never within walking distance, even
if there is one that *would* be within walking distance. Because the
games are fairly long, the mothers tend to collect at a safe distance
and do anything except watch the game.



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(TBGibb) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Carl Fogel) writes:

But another explanation is that the measurements were
inherently inaccurate--a used chain will always be
longer after cleaning because the solvent removes most
of the minute layer of gritty lubricant between the pins
and rollers.

Every measurment was made after cleaning.

Tom Gibb

Dear Tom,

Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other?

I thought that you washed one chain section
washed in solvent once a month and then measured
it--a worn but freshly cleaned chain with far
less crud in its internal parts to tighten it
up, so to speak.

The other section, I thought, was never washed
in any significant way, just wiped off with a
rag and brush and then oiled, which would have
no effect on the gritty slime inside the rollers.

So one chain section was relatively clean inside
when measured and would never have more than a month
of internal build-up.

Meanwhile the other chain section was never cleaned
internally and eventually accumulated ten months of
gummy, oily paste.

Did I misunderstand your method?

I'm negotiating with a local bike shop for a few
truly filthy worn-out chains to measure before and
after cleaning to see if my theory that cleaning
results in elongation.

Carl Fogel

Werehatrack wrote:

I can think of some possible factors that may be involved. First, as
you touch on farther down, the washing may have removed the original
packing lube and eliminated the benefit provided by its presence.
Second, if the solvent stripped the lube completely, and the
reapplication was not getting into all of the pivots properly, then
the "washed" chain may have been operating partially dry. Third, some
dirt's presence between the side plates may have been acting to reduce
the amount of fresh grit getting to the pivots; dirt protecing against
dirt intrusion, as it were. Fourth, if the solvent was not drying out
completely before the oil was applied, the solvent may have reduced
the lube's effectiveness. There are probably other things that I
haven't thought of as well.

Very good points.

Many people make the mistake of using water based solvents, when they should
be using kerosene or other petroleum based solvent that evaporates more
quickly. So, as you state, there is still solvent inside the pivots when the
lubricant is applied, plus they probably did not remove the original
lubricant (which is a good thing, but now you have water mixed with
lubricant).

Many people make the mistake of re-applying lubricant by dripping or
spraying, which does not get lubricant deep into all the pivots.

If soaking the chain clean, it is best to use kerosene, it's cheap and
effective. The chain needs to be agitated in the solvent.

Following the soaking, you need to soak and agitate the chain in an
appropriate lubricant (chain saw oil is best, but SAE 30 oil (not 10W30) is
also okay). Almost as good, is a foaming spray lubricant for chains, as sold
in motorcycle parts stores. A big can of this will last you ten years!

I used to go through the whole rigamarole of removing the chain, soaking it
in solvent, soaking it in oil. As the number of bicycles increased through
marriage and children, this sort of thing became way too time consuming, for
too little benefit.

As SRAM stated, wiping the chain clean and then using a proper lubricant is
just fine. Properly cleaning and re-lubing a chain is something that few
people do, though many think they do it! A lot of people still change their
vehicle's oil every 3K miles too, even though there is no benefit to doing
this on all but a very, very few vehicles.

dvt wrote:
if the unwashed chain has grit filling in the
gap, the gap might stabilize because a growing gap will continue to get
filled with more grit.

If Tom still has the chain, perhaps he could now thoroughly clean the
"unwashed" side and see if the elongation increases. That would test
the theory that internal grit caused the wear to appear to be less
than it actually was.

Tom, thanks for taking the data and getting us all thinking!

Art Harris

From: Werehatrack

Because the
games are fairly long, the mothers tend to collect at a safe distance
and do anything except watch the game.

You forgot about the incessant babbling on the headpiece cell phone, while
cutting off other drivers, going 53 mph in the 70+ zone, sitting for a count of
five at a new green light. The "handhelds" are of course a lot worse. Ah well,
using more gas is patriotic, right? --Tom Paterson

On 07 Jan 2004 13:25:39 GMT, ospam (Tom Paterson)
may have said:

From: Werehatrack

Because the
games are fairly long, the mothers tend to collect at a safe distance
and do anything except watch the game.

You forgot about the incessant babbling on the headpiece cell phone, while
cutting off other drivers, going 53 mph in the 70+ zone, sitting for a count of
five at a new green light. The "handhelds" are of course a lot worse. Ah well,
using more gas is patriotic, right? --Tom Paterson

Oddly enough, the only three soccer moms of my personal social
acquaintance drove compct cars and didn't have cell phones. They also
didn't sit with the gaggle of moms who arrived in Navigators,
Escalades and such. (My daughter had a brief fling with the soccer
scene, but decided that it took too much time for too little gain.
Biking is more fun, and can be done on *her* schedule.)


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Benjamin Weiner wrote:
The measurements could only be made to the nearest 1/64 inch,
and presumably have some error. That explains why the measurements
appear to jump.... That's why I wouldn't worry about the month where the
washed chain appeared to stretch 1/32".

I hear you -- digitizing continuous data with random error can create
odd jumps in the data. Maybe that also explains the poor linear fit to
the unwashed chain data. But when two odd trends appear in the same set
of data, I begin to wonder. We might never know the answer unless we run
many repetitions of a similar test.

Inspired by Tom, I'm thinking about doing something similar when I get a
new chain for my commuter. I generally use two different chains (I swap
at cleaning time), so the results would come much slower. And I don't
have an odometer.

Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Steven M. Scharf wrote:

Many people make the mistake of using water based solvents, when they
should be using kerosene or other petroleum based solvent that
evaporates more quickly. So, as you state, there is still solvent
inside the pivots when the lubricant is applied, plus they probably
did not remove the original lubricant (which is a good thing, but now
you have water mixed with lubricant).

This is true. However, if enough rinse water is used, there should be no
problem with residual solvent.

Many people make the mistake of re-applying lubricant by dripping or
spraying, which does not get lubricant deep into all the pivots.

Oh, yes it does, unless you're using wax.

If soaking the chain clean, it is best to use kerosene, it's cheap and
effective. The chain needs to be agitated in the solvent.

Following the soaking, you need to soak and agitate the chain in an
appropriate lubricant (chain saw oil is best, but SAE 30 oil (not
10W30) is also okay). Almost as good, is a foaming spray lubricant
for chains, as sold in motorcycle parts stores.

You don't need to soak the chain in oil. The oil will find its way in just
fine, unless the chain is wet. But even in that case, the oil will continue to
coat the metal after the water has dried.

Look at how a few drops of *fresh* oil will creep all the way across a clean
garage floor.

A big can of this
will last you ten years!

A medium sized can of any of these is probably good for a decade.

I used to go through the whole rigamarole of removing the chain,
soaking it in solvent, soaking it in oil. As the number of bicycles
increased through marriage and children, this sort of thing became
way too time consuming, for too little benefit.

I clean my chain while washing my bike. It adds only a couple of minutes to the
process, if that.

As SRAM stated, wiping the chain clean and then using a proper
lubricant is just fine. Properly cleaning and re-lubing a chain is
something that few people do, though many think they do it! A lot of
people still change their vehicle's oil every 3K miles too, even
though there is no benefit to doing this on all but a very, very few
vehicles.

SRAM is in the business of selling chains! They want to sell you more of them,
not help you make them last longer.

Matt O.

You make some interesting points, but I don't see support for your
claims. See below for examples. All of your claims may be 100% correct,
but you haven't convinced me just yet.

Steven M. Scharf claimed:
Many people make the mistake of using water based solvents, when they should
be using kerosene or other petroleum based solvent that evaporates more
quickly.

support:
So, as you state, there is still solvent inside the pivots when the
lubricant is applied, plus they probably did not remove the original
lubricant (which is a good thing, but now you have water mixed with
lubricant).

A little weak on the support for that claim. How do you know that
solvent is still in the pivots? In my case, for example, a
solvent-washed chain hangs for at least a week (usually more) before it
gets oiled and used. I'd wager that the solvent has pretty much
evaporated in that time.

Claim:
Many people make the mistake of re-applying lubricant by dripping or
spraying, which does not get lubricant deep into all the pivots.

Support:
none

Claims:
If soaking the chain clean, it is best to use kerosene, it's cheap and
effective. The chain needs to be agitated in the solvent.

Support;
none

Claim:
Following the soaking, you need to soak and agitate the chain in an
appropriate lubricant (chain saw oil is best, but SAE 30 oil (not 10W30) is
also okay).

Support:
none

Claim:
As SRAM stated, wiping the chain clean and then using a proper lubricant is
just fine.

Support:
none

Claim:
Properly cleaning and re-lubing a chain is something that few
people do, though many think they do it!

Support:
none

Claim:
A lot of people still change their
vehicle's oil every 3K miles too, even though there is no benefit to doing
this on all but a very, very few vehicles.

Support:
none

I write this not to be argumentative or negative, although it could
easily be interpreted that way. I write this to point out the style of
writing that has gotten you in some trouble in other threads on this NG.
A group ending in .tech will probably have a some scientifically trained
people reading the posts, and claims without support will get you in
trouble with that crowd nearly every time.

Some exceptions are made for those that have established credibility
within a community. In my opinion, Steven, you haven't been around long
enough to have that credibility. Your claims may all be correct, but you
have to back them up with some data before I will buy it.

Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:44:14 GMT, Paul Hays
wrote:
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:16:53 -0800, Rick Onanian wrote
You do all that work for a $10 chain? That's like working for
$2/hour.

Only if you stand there and watch it dry.

It only takes me around 10 minutes of actual work to clean and dry a chain:
remove, shake in plastic soda bottle with citris solvent, shake with water,
hang to dry, re-install and lube.

Yeah, but 10 minutes x how many iterations?
--
Rick Onanian