Stronger rubber cement?

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 6:25:17 PM UTC-5, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Wed, 18 Jan 2017
07:36:48 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-17 15:26, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
analog,

I will not explain tire mounting again. Retard at your own speed


I have explained to you that these are _flat_ rims. Hard to understand?

Most of us never seem to have encountered such rims, so yes, it is
hard to understand that any manufacturer would produce such an utterly
useless design!
Are you sure they aren't cheap Chinese knockoffs of a normally good
quality product?

Joerg won't change his rims or tires or most any other component in order to alleviate any particular problem that he has. To do so would remove a reason for him to complain here on RBT about something and/or start another useless thread that runs for many, many pages.

Cheers

On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 00:48:02 +0000, Phil Lee
wrote:

jbeattie considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:10:48
-0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 5:59:34 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 07:50:19 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.

Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb


Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe
then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles.
Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular
scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades
we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a
bicycle.

You talk about your auto escapades as hauling a half a cord of wood in
your SUV. You describe your bicycle riding as speeding down rocky
hills, leaping over bumps and unexpectedly diving into lakes.

If you drove your car the way that you claim to ride your bike I think
that you would have a very different concept of how bullet proof your
car is.

I've spent considerable time around trucks that haul heavy loads over
unimproved roads and my experience was that they definitely did
require frequent repairs.

I've also been around off the road racing cars and they took even more
maintenance than the trucks.

As usual, you are not comparing apples and apples.

I ride with a guy who races motorcycles. He can go through a set of tires over the course of weekend -- and they cost a mint. Talk about an expensive hobby.

-- Jay Beattie.

Only one set?
That must be a restricted formula.
When I used to help as an amateur mechanic for my neighbour, who raced
motorcycles to a national level, tyres lasted exactly one race.
likewise chains. Piston rings, one day, pistons, a weekend, cylinders
several times in a year, clutches before each meeting. Plus anything
that breaks, and of course, different internal gears and sprockets are
used for each circuit, to give the best gearing, along with different
pad compounds and disk diameters to suit circuit and conditions.
Various other parts were replaced on a regular basis as well, but it's
a long time ago now, so my list is not exhaustive. Tyres capable of
performing in the wet would be shredded in a couple of laps if the
circuit dried out.
The grinding from mud, dust, grit and sand creates even greater wear
on racing motocross bikes, and to increase performance, intake air is
barely filtered, if at all.

At the more extreme level (F1, Indy, NASCAR for cars, IoM-TT for
bikes), tyres are changed several times DURING the race, and the cars
or bikes are essentially new for each meeting, with ALL parts that can
possibly wear being replaced, and often other parts swapped for ones
more suitable for the different circuit!
The most extreme example I can think of off-hand is Formula E, where
the entire car is changed half-way through each race, when the battery
goes flat - so all the other allowed wear components are designed to
last only half a race!

That is a fairer comparison for a machine which you ride to it's
limits, not your false one of a softly tuned road vehicle, designed to
reach it's warranty period even if driven to the limits the road will
allow, if properly serviced and normal wear items replaced on
schedule.

In drag racing a AA fueler - now called Top Fuel" may replace the
engine after a 1/4 mile :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:36:17 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 4:48:04 PM UTC-8, Phil Lee wrote:
jbeattie considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:10:48
-0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 5:59:34 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 07:50:19 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.

Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb


Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe
then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles.
Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular
scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades
we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a
bicycle.

You talk about your auto escapades as hauling a half a cord of wood in
your SUV. You describe your bicycle riding as speeding down rocky
hills, leaping over bumps and unexpectedly diving into lakes.

If you drove your car the way that you claim to ride your bike I think
that you would have a very different concept of how bullet proof your
car is.

I've spent considerable time around trucks that haul heavy loads over
unimproved roads and my experience was that they definitely did
require frequent repairs.

I've also been around off the road racing cars and they took even more
maintenance than the trucks.

As usual, you are not comparing apples and apples.

I ride with a guy who races motorcycles. He can go through a set of tires over the course of weekend -- and they cost a mint. Talk about an expensive hobby.

-- Jay Beattie.

Only one set?
That must be a restricted formula.
When I used to help as an amateur mechanic for my neighbour, who raced
motorcycles to a national level, tyres lasted exactly one race.
likewise chains. Piston rings, one day, pistons, a weekend, cylinders
several times in a year, clutches before each meeting. Plus anything
that breaks, and of course, different internal gears and sprockets are
used for each circuit, to give the best gearing, along with different
pad compounds and disk diameters to suit circuit and conditions.
Various other parts were replaced on a regular basis as well, but it's
a long time ago now, so my list is not exhaustive. Tyres capable of
performing in the wet would be shredded in a couple of laps if the
circuit dried out.
The grinding from mud, dust, grit and sand creates even greater wear
on racing motocross bikes, and to increase performance, intake air is
barely filtered, if at all.

At the more extreme level (F1, Indy, NASCAR for cars, IoM-TT for
bikes), tyres are changed several times DURING the race, and the cars
or bikes are essentially new for each meeting, with ALL parts that can
possibly wear being replaced, and often other parts swapped for ones
more suitable for the different circuit!
The most extreme example I can think of off-hand is Formula E, where
the entire car is changed half-way through each race, when the battery
goes flat - so all the other allowed wear components are designed to
last only half a race!

That is a fairer comparison for a machine which you ride to it's
limits, not your false one of a softly tuned road vehicle, designed to
reach it's warranty period even if driven to the limits the road will
allow, if properly serviced and normal wear items replaced on
schedule.

On that continuum, I wonder where Joerg falls. It sometimes sounds like he's taking a Ford Taurus on the Baja 1000 -- a Taurus held together with hose clamps.

-- Jay Beattie.

If he does he will be back to tell us how Ford builds junk!
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/18/2017 10:35 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
Frank...every watch the antiquo video ?


It's called bas-relief:
http://ancientrome.ru/art/artwork/sc...nini/ca012.jpg


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2017-01-18 13:37, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 7:36:08 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 11:36, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:56:13 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 9:47:32 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 08:21, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new
bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last
year's bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are
reliable. I reliably change the chain when the wear
indicator indicates and change the tires when they are worn
out. I fix a flat now and then and do other routine
maintenance. It's not like some monumental inconvenience, and
if flats were epidemic, then I would switch to a hard-case
tire. I would not agonize over the fact that the 20lb tire
on my Subaru goes flat less often.


My point is that when I say I am going to be there for an
important meeting at 11:30am I don't want to leave half an
hour earlier just in case I get a flat. And good luck getting
that Gatorksin tire back onto one of my rims.

If it takes you half an hour to fix a flat, you have other
problems that need to be addressed.


Yeah, I could get new rims and/or different tires. That is why
finding a suitable tire isn't easy. You are welcome to come over
and try getting a Gatorskin onto my rims.

Dude, I was mounting first generation Turbos on E2s rims using my
bare thumbs, but when I could no longer stand the pain, I got a VAR
tool and packed that. http://tinyurl.com/j9ul39s


I've got various sets of really good tire levers. They are of no use
when wrestling the bead over the rim. Try Gatorskins on a flat Mavic
Argent rim. I am by far not the only one and people have used all sorts
of tricks. Problem is, there are no trick, just raw force.

Sounds like you haven't tried motionpros

https://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle...FRKRfgodycsNdw


I've got good steel tire irons as well. Lots of tire irons in the
garage, and none of the cheap stuff.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-01-18 15:22, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Wed, 18 Jan 2017
07:36:11 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-17 11:36, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:56:13 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 9:47:32 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 08:21, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new
bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last
year's bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are
reliable. I reliably change the chain when the wear
indicator indicates and change the tires when they are worn
out. I fix a flat now and then and do other routine
maintenance. It's not like some monumental inconvenience, and
if flats were epidemic, then I would switch to a hard-case
tire. I would not agonize over the fact that the 20lb tire
on my Subaru goes flat less often.


My point is that when I say I am going to be there for an
important meeting at 11:30am I don't want to leave half an
hour earlier just in case I get a flat. And good luck getting
that Gatorksin tire back onto one of my rims.

If it takes you half an hour to fix a flat, you have other
problems that need to be addressed.


Yeah, I could get new rims and/or different tires. That is why
finding a suitable tire isn't easy. You are welcome to come over
and try getting a Gatorskin onto my rims.

Dude, I was mounting first generation Turbos on E2s rims using my
bare thumbs, but when I could no longer stand the pain, I got a VAR
tool and packed that. http://tinyurl.com/j9ul39s


I've got various sets of really good tire levers. They are of no use
when wrestling the bead over the rim. Try Gatorskins on a flat Mavic
Argent rim. I am by far not the only one and people have used all sorts
of tricks. Problem is, there are no trick, just raw force.


... There are other
options as well. http://tinyurl.com/j2otl8g


Snaps off in seconds.


And if you are riding such gnarly ****, how is it that you are still
riding vintage rims? I would assume the brake surface is worn nearly
through or the rim is bashed up enough to justify a new rim
manufactured in the last decade with a deeper profile and a better
fit for most tires.


This is my 1982 road bike. I do not brake all that much so the rims are
ok. I also have two MTB where changing out a tire is a matter of minutes
and I could do it with one hand if I wanted to.

The (upright) bike I have most experience of fixing flats on is a 1987
Raleigh Royal touring bike, with original rims. The well in the rim
isn't deep, but it exists.
If you really do not have any well at all in your rims, then I would
suggest that you keep up with the technology and not use 21st century
tyres on a 35 year old rim, which may not adhere particularly well to
the ISO standard (it would have been about the time 622 (700c) was
replacing 27" as the standard, so might be a little bit off anyway).
Fitting new rims (which would probably be worthwhile anyway for rims
that old) would solve your problems.
MTB tyres are always easy, in my experience - I rarely need levers
even to take them off, so it's not really a fair comparison.


But why did _all_ tires in the 80's and 90's fit just fine and in
minutes? I rode a lot more on that bike than today (because I didn't
have an MTB) and went through lots of tires of various brands.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-01-17 17:39, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:52:53 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 1/16/2017 7:30 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:23:53 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.

Strange. My LBS is a chain of two large shops in Bangkok, and a large
number of agents scattered all over the country, and is the largest
bicycle business in Thailand. They sell predominantly road bikes and
the sales manager tells me that a very large portion of the bikes that
they sell are Carbon. In fact she said that it was much easier to sell
a carbon bike than an aluminum bike.

Do you live in some poor, improvised, area where people can't afford
decent equipment :-?

I wonder whether Andrew's business depends on broken mountain bikes
and cheap walmart stuff?


We don't depend on it. But we've outlived a great number of
other shops in part because we are not snobs and are as
helpful as patience permits with the usual crap. The owners
of the usual crap are just as human as anyone else and
respond well to a kind word.


You have discovered the secret of success :-) Be a nice guy.

Years ago I patronized a tiny little hardware shop because the old guy
(been there for years) that ran it seemed to want to help the
customer. I needed a 3 foot section of "heat tape" once to reach all
the way to the end of my new water pipe and he ordered it from Boston.
A $3.00 item.

Eventually the old fellow either died or retired and his son took over
and he was not only a surly brute but the "bottom line" became the
critical factor. Sure he'd order something from Boston... if it was a
$50 order.

The shop closed in about a year.


In Germany we had an old saying and that held true many times: The third
generation ruins it.


I'm thinking here of a particular customer. He bought a
stereo system which included a 'free' bike. Two other shops
gave him an earful and threw him out. Our employee adjusted
the seat and bars, made the brakes functional and improved
it from a death trap to a lousy bicycle in a few minutes'
time. He became a regular customer for many years with new
very nice bikes eventually.

Quick frame repair during a party while wearing a hula skirt:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/hulaweld.jpg


Priceless! :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-01-18 12:11, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/18/2017 11:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-18 09:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 7:36:44 AM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-01-17 15:26, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
analog,

I will not explain tire mounting again. Retard at your
own speed


I have explained to you that these are _flat_ rims. Hard to
understand?

The Argent rim is just a Mod E2. Right?


Mine are Mavic Module “3� Argent “D�. Almost flat
inside.


http://equusbicycle.com/bike/mavic/images/11and12.jpg Pretty
standard rim of the era. Get VAR lever. It lifts the bead
over the
rim. Your problems will be solved. Getting another tire
or rim will
also solve your problems. Most people will not wrestle
with a tire
for a half-an-hour, at least not more than once.


I have broken many high quality levers on those and bike
shop owners have confirmed that issue. When they say "Good
luck getting them on" you know what you are up to.

The thick tubes I have do not exactly help in keeping the
bead towards the center but I made myself Delrin pieces to
do that. The relief that this provides is very limited
though, as evidenced by the fact that even with thin tubes
Gatorskins are really hard to mount onto these rims.

Fact is, the Vredestein tires always went on with ease and
the Gatorskin tires do not. Huge difference. However, the
Vredesteins had too many flats. So, I am looking for a tire
that is very puncture-resistant, has sturdy side walls _and_
is easy to mount. Eventually I will find one and then buy a
stack of them. Just like I did for the MTB where I found
three brands that work well.


That's a known deficient design with hardly any drop between the bead
seats and the center well. Not only those Mavic, but Trek copied it for
some all-time-lousy rims under their Bontrager brand. Very hard to
mount/remove tires; Joerg is not making that up.


The weird phenomenon is that in the olden days all tires fit fine. All
of them. I put north of 50k miles on that bike just in the 80's and used
up rear tires as if they were popcorn. All kinds of brands but mostly
Vredestein. The beads went on with ease, in minutes. Now some tires seem
to be subpar in bead diameter tolerance. For example, Gatorskins take
over an hour to wrestle them on (with breaks because the thumbs hurt so
much). Once they have been on there for a while it becomes easier to
take them off and put them back on. How much easier depends on the time
they've been on the rim, not how many times they were mounted or how
many miles were ridden. That seems to indicate that the beads stretch
while on there.

Sometimes things really were better in the good old days. I realized
that again just now when re-working a wine fridge. The design and the
workmanship was, in part, rather messed up. That somehow rarely happened
in the 50's (we have a Bosch fridge from 1956, still running great).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-01-18 12:47, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 11:31:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 1/17/2017 1:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote:


So what your saying is that I pay nothing extra insurance-wise
for owning a bike. It is covered by insurance that I already
own. (: OTOH, there are whole other things called "auto
insurance policies" -- specially for autos! And they cost a
lot! ):


That is the same as saying that welfare costs us nothing.
_Everyone_ is paying for the risk of cycling including home
owners who never ride. Is that fair? I don't think so but that's
the way it is.

Oh, quit the bull**** about the "risks of cycling." There have
been at least five different studies on the risks vs. benefits of
cycling, measured in different ways - for example, health care
dollars spent vs. saved, years of life lost vs. gained, etc. EVERY
study found that cycling is by FAR a net benefit.

So in insurance terms, you've got things backwards. _Everyone_ is
getting reduced insurance premiums and reduced health care costs
from cycling, even the people who never ride.


Agree ... but ... we were talking about liability insurance, _not_
health insurance. I'll have to repeat it: Read more carefully. Before
typing.


IOW, quit the "Danger! Danger!" implications. You may ride like an
idiot, but even you don't tip the scales in the direction you
claim.


-- - Frank Krygowski

Aren't you the one telling us that the study that showed Hillary 14
points in the lead was accurate ...


ROFL! I almost spewed out a sip of water while laughing :-)

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-01-18 13:53, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Mon, 16 Jan 2017
12:31:41 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-04 20:32, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Wed, 04 Jan 2017

[...]


I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so
much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement
is toast only a few months after opening.

It also has to become a pliable connection because those cuts are on the
side walls. Ever since moving to tire liners plus thich tubes plus thick
tire surfaces I don't get "regular" flats via running surface punctures
anymore.

A useful tip for storing cans or bottles of such materials (including
paints, as well) is to store them upside down.


Good point. At least I always make sure to turn them upside down for a
little and then right them again. That way any possible break in te seal
will (hopefully) remain "gunked".


That way, any slight imperfection in the seal around the lid will fill
with the glue, paint, or whatever, and dry to form a perfect seal,
which will preserve the contents.


Except that continued upside-down storage without a catch basin can
result in a nasty surprise when coming back from a vacation.

It never has for me, even after years of storage.


I used to think that about my brewing as well, that I never had a
fermenter blow-off. Everything literally went textbook style. Then,
shortly before New Year's, an evil hiss ... and ...

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/