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  #11  
Old March 21st 19, 03:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Default New Bontager Helmet Material

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 9:30:33 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Again, the unspoken implication is that riding a bike
is SO DANGEROUS that nobody should ever do it without
first spending money so that your insurance company
might be spared paying for your medical treatment.
Except that every study done on the topic has found that
bicycling's benefits far outweigh its tiny risks.

This "bicycling is dangerous" meme needs to die.


https://ig.ft.com/sites/urban-cycling/

- Frank Krygowski

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  #12  
Old March 21st 19, 06:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Default New Bontager Helmet Material

On 3/20/2019 10:40 PM, news18 wrote:

Ignorng the requirement for that 'certification sticker", just how hard
would it be to build your own helmet?

A distorted plastic bowl with a set of straps attached, the linen with a
thick coat of spray foam. it would probably as good as the ones they sell?


Considering that you can buy a certified helmet for as little as $10,
the upside of building your own would be questionable. Also, spray foam
is not the same as EPS.
  #13  
Old March 21st 19, 08:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Default New Bontager Helmet Material

On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 6:42:19 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 7:57:43 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 3/20/2019 2:39 PM, James wrote:
On 21/3/19 3:51 am, wrote:
I had heard that Trek was going to have a new material for their bike
frames. Well, in fact it is a new material for helmets. Styrofoam
worked for preventing skull fractures but that is not a source of
cycling injuries on the whole - concussions are.

The new material will NOT offer the ultimate safety as the Styrofoam
did but it is WAY softer in the manner of crushing and will eliminate
most of the concussions. While this won't meet the helmet standards I
have no doubt that they will make a new standard for this material
since it will probably save 70% or more of the NORMAL injuries from
bicycle accidents.


Looking at statistics from the EU, it seems that about 80% of cycling
injuries presented at the ER, are to body regions other than the head..


How can a new helmet material save 70% of the normal injuries from
bicycle accidents when 80% of the injured don't have a head injury?


There's an article about the new helmet material he
https://www.popsci.com/trek-wavecel-bicycle-helmet-science#page-5. The
key feature is the improved concussion protection.


And as usual, the unspoken assumption behind the article
is that cycling produces so many brain injuries that
cyclists _need_ protection.

Yet any dispassionate examination of the relevant data
shows that cycling is not abnormally risky. Cyclists
comprise only a tiny percentage of serious brain injury
victims, and cycling's benefits far outweigh its tiny
risks.


Depending on individual experience and assuming: (1) people will not ride if they wear a helmet, viz., that one excludes the other, and (2) that those who will not ride with a helmet will do no other activity, like walk, go to the gym, etc. For those who ride with a helmet, a better design is all upside except for cost and weight.

I wear a ski helmet with soft padding and EPS, and I got a massive concussion wearing that -- but I did avoid fracturing my skull or mangling my scalp, which was likely based on my facial injuries. IMO, less rigid materials don't mean no concussion. It seems like a worthy goal, but concussion is possible with no contact between the head and a hard object.

Whether cycling is dangerous depends on your environment. With the crazy mix of transportation modes around here, I'm surprised more people aren't getting injured, e.g.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/13999793819 Yes, as a cyclist, you're supposed to ride up that cut into a bunch of people waiting to get on a street car. The morning ride is a scrum through the south waterfront.

-- Jay Beattie.


  #14  
Old March 21st 19, 10:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default New Bontager Helmet Material

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:51:29 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 6:42:19 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And as usual, the unspoken assumption behind the article
is that cycling produces so many brain injuries that
cyclists _need_ protection.

Yet any dispassionate examination of the relevant data
shows that cycling is not abnormally risky. Cyclists
comprise only a tiny percentage of serious brain injury
victims, and cycling's benefits far outweigh its tiny
risks.


Depending on individual experience and assuming: (1) people will not ride if they wear a helmet, viz., that one excludes the other, and (2) that those who will not ride with a helmet will do no other activity, like walk, go to the gym, etc.


Regarding #1: The point is not whether someone can get
the same health benefits from other exercise. Of course
that's possible - if they do, indeed, choose some other
exercise. But swimming, playing tennis, etc. do not
replace bicycling's transportation possibilities. You,
Jay, won't swim to work if bicycling were taken away
from you. You would drive.

And in some of the studies (those with the highest
benefit-to-risk findings for bicycling) the benefits
estimated included benefits to others, from reducing
pollution and crash risks from drivers.

Besides, why should we discourage an activity that has
net individual and societal benefit by falsely claiming
it's so dangerous as to need protective equipment?

(Occasionally, some helmeteers claim that helmet mandates
or promotion doesn't discourage bicycling. It's a fringe
viewpoint akin to claims that the moon landing was
faked, that 9/11 was a planned demolition of the twin
towers, etc. It ignores logic and data.)

For those who ride with a helmet, a better design is all upside except for cost and weight.


In my experience, a cloth cycling cap is a far better
design.

I wear a ski helmet with soft padding and EPS, and I got a massive concussion wearing that -- but I did avoid fracturing my skull or mangling my scalp, which was likely based on my facial injuries.


As I've said, our society is schizophrenic about risk.
Lots of people glorify objectively risky things like
downhill skiing, free climbing, BMX parks or radical
ATB riding, skydiving and more. And those participants
brag about their wisdom in choosing protective gear.

ISTM it's wiser to avoid activities that are thrilling
because you might get badly injured, and to not push
protective gear for activities that are objectively
safer than walking. After all, the biggest risk of
death for most Americans is from diseases that are
reduced by bicycling.

- Frank Krygowski


  #15  
Old March 21st 19, 10:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default New Bontager Helmet Material

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:51:29 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

Whether cycling is dangerous depends on your environment.


Of course. The same can be said of walking, driving,
swimming, etc. Yet nobody calls for helmets for all
walkers or drivers. Nobody calls for water wings for
all swimmers, even though it's per-hour fatality rate
dwarfs that of cycling.

With the crazy mix of transportation modes around here, I'm surprised more people aren't getting injured, e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/13999793819 Yes, as a cyclist, you're supposed to ride up that cut into a bunch of people waiting to get on a street car. The morning ride is a scrum through the south waterfront.


And the motivation for such hideous segregated bike
facilities? The motivation is the false idea that
riding on normal roads is terribly dangerous.

- Frank Krygowski
  #16  
Old March 21st 19, 11:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default New Bontager Helmet Material

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 2:16:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:51:29 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

Whether cycling is dangerous depends on your environment.


Of course. The same can be said of walking, driving,
swimming, etc. Yet nobody calls for helmets for all
walkers or drivers. Nobody calls for water wings for
all swimmers, even though it's per-hour fatality rate
dwarfs that of cycling.

With the crazy mix of transportation modes around here, I'm surprised more people aren't getting injured, e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/13999793819 Yes, as a cyclist, you're supposed to ride up that cut into a bunch of people waiting to get on a street car. The morning ride is a scrum through the south waterfront.


And the motivation for such hideous segregated bike
facilities? The motivation is the false idea that
riding on normal roads is terribly dangerous.

- Frank Krygowski


  #17  
Old March 21st 19, 11:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default New Bontager Helmet Material

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:13:26 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 2:16:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:51:29 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

Whether cycling is dangerous depends on your environment.


Of course. The same can be said of walking, driving,
swimming, etc. Yet nobody calls for helmets for all
walkers or drivers. Nobody calls for water wings for
all swimmers, even though it's per-hour fatality rate
dwarfs that of cycling.

With the crazy mix of transportation modes around here, I'm surprised more people aren't getting injured, e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/13999793819 Yes, as a cyclist, you're supposed to ride up that cut into a bunch of people waiting to get on a street car. The morning ride is a scrum through the south waterfront.


And the motivation for such hideous segregated bike
facilities? The motivation is the false idea that
riding on normal roads is terribly dangerous.

- Frank Krygowski


Ooops. What I was going to say is that those curb cuts occur to accommodate an island created for the street car. You could continue straight, but the bike lane ends, and a lot of people are afraid of crossing parallel train tracks to take the lane. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikepo...n/photostream/

This is the beginning of my commute out of downtown -- a few blocks from my office. It is often hard to find open pavement. https://www.pdx.edu/transportation/s...?itok=OQmqRyBs That is an example of one of those street car islands. I get on to the sidewalk, go up and over the island and then drop down in front of a turning street car. It's great! Transit malls are a nightmare.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #18  
Old March 22nd 19, 12:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 805
Default New Bontager Helmet Material

On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 07:39:03 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 9:30:33 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Again, the unspoken implication is that riding a bike
is SO DANGEROUS that nobody should ever do it without
first spending money so that your insurance company
might be spared paying for your medical treatment.
Except that every study done on the topic has found that
bicycling's benefits far outweigh its tiny risks.

This "bicycling is dangerous" meme needs to die.


https://ig.ft.com/sites/urban-cycling/

- Frank Krygowski


I believe that bicycling IS dangerous if you make left turns from the
right lane in front of a truck and studies, probably the most
compressive was the CHP study done in L.A. County, have show that the
majority of bicycle accidents were the fault of the cyclist.

Thinking back of the accidents reported here nearly all of them seem
to be essentially the fault of the rider... or perhaps "wouldn't have
happened if the rider had used common sense"would be a more polite way
to say it.

For years now I have been riding in a country that has (usually) the
second highest highway deaths in the world and the two "accidents" I
have had that were severe enough to break bones were solely my own
fault and in both instances I was wearing a helmet that apparently
never touched the ground as there was no marks on it.

Just think, according to the CHP study simply obeying the traffic laws
would reduce bicycle-auto collisions by 60%.

Isn't it strange that the emphasis is on wearing a helmet to protect
you when you hit the car and noting is said about riding safely so
that do not hit the car?


--
Cheers,
John B.


  #19  
Old March 22nd 19, 12:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 805
Default New Bontager Helmet Material

On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 06:30:31 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 4:44:34 AM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I often wonder just how effective a bicycle helmet is. I have had a nasty fall where the helmet protected my head enough that I was able to continue my ride. Then again, I had a helmet that fell off the handlebar of my bicycle whilst the bicycle was motionless in my apartment and a good size chunk of the helmet broke off from the lower left side edge of the helmet. That makes me wonder.

Then there is this site that I came across just recently. After reading it, it seems that helmets don't meet many expectations. Full URL because many here don't like Tiny URLS.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamo.../#4f36b4ee44e6


There have always been helmets that are more protective
and helmets that are less protective. In the U.S., the
magazine _Consumer Reports_ has tested a selection of
helmets every few years and given them CR's cryptic
ratings for impact protection. (CR uses five different
colored dots or other icons, rather than assigning
a certain number of stars.) It's been very consistent
that the cheapest helmets get the best rating. But
those cheap helmets are thicker and heavier. Helmet
companies slap lots of foam into cheap ones so they
pass government standards without lots of design time.
They spend lots of design time on expensive helmets
to shave weight, allow more holes for cooling etc. while
still (barely) passing the government standard test.

But look at the motivation for their push to improve
bike helmets - that is, aside from their desire to get
people to spend money in hopes that the insurance
companies won't have to:

"More than 800 cyclists were killed in crashes with
motor vehicles in 2016 – the highest number since 1991.
More than half weren’t wearing helmets."

What's the parallel statement for pedestrians? "More than
3500 pedestrians were killed. 99.9% weren't wearing
helmets." Or for motorists: "More than 30,000 were
killed. 99.9% weren't wearing helmets."

Again, the unspoken implication is that riding a bike
is SO DANGEROUS that nobody should ever do it without
first spending money so that your insurance company
might be spared paying for your medical treatment.
Except that every study done on the topic has found that
bicycling's benefits far outweigh its tiny risks.

This "bicycling is dangerous" meme needs to die.

- Frank Krygowski

Ah but if cycling was safer how could they sell helmets.

In addition there is "armor" available for cyclists see
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/th/en/body-armour

But apparently it looks sort of Icky so it doesn't sell well. But
helmets, well helmets are now seen to be "cool".

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #20  
Old March 22nd 19, 01:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default New Bontager Helmet Material

On 3/21/2019 5:24 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:13:26 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 2:16:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:51:29 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

Whether cycling is dangerous depends on your environment.

Of course. The same can be said of walking, driving,
swimming, etc. Yet nobody calls for helmets for all
walkers or drivers. Nobody calls for water wings for
all swimmers, even though it's per-hour fatality rate
dwarfs that of cycling.

With the crazy mix of transportation modes around here, I'm surprised more people aren't getting injured, e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/13999793819 Yes, as a cyclist, you're supposed to ride up that cut into a bunch of people waiting to get on a street car. The morning ride is a scrum through the south waterfront.

And the motivation for such hideous segregated bike
facilities? The motivation is the false idea that
riding on normal roads is terribly dangerous.

- Frank Krygowski


Ooops. What I was going to say is that those curb cuts occur to accommodate an island created for the street car. You could continue straight, but the bike lane ends, and a lot of people are afraid of crossing parallel train tracks to take the lane. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikepo...n/photostream/

This is the beginning of my commute out of downtown -- a few blocks from my office. It is often hard to find open pavement. https://www.pdx.edu/transportation/s...?itok=OQmqRyBs That is an example of one of those street car islands. I get on to the sidewalk, go up and over the island and then drop down in front of a turning street car. It's great! Transit malls are a nightmare.

-- Jay Beattie.


In the same way that jihadi masterminds use children with
suicide bombs, the solution to mass transit may well be
teenagers:

https://nypost.com/video/3-teens-dea...shes-into-bus/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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