Merry Christmas* to y'all.

On 2012-12-27 21:43:23 +0000, James said:



Incidentally, Jobst used
to claim that tread-free tires didn't throw enough water to require
fenders. I can't say whether that's true or not.

The tyres I use are slick as possible. Water still flicks off them.
But not having used tyres with tread on the road bike for about 20
something years, I can't remember the difference.

Slick tires throw up more water than threaded tires, certainly more
than tires with knobs especially on a smooth surface. I don't know
where Jobst got that idea.


--

Lou

On Dec 27, 4:43*pm, James wrote:
On 27/12/12 14:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think what happens instead is people assume they can't ride
if the roads are wet.

Can't ride?

They just never consider fenders. *And if they
do, many folks find their bike can't be fitted with effective fenders,
because there's no room. *(I know about Race Blades, but they're not
nearly as effective, I hear.)

Many folks? *How many have you spoken to about this lately? *You make it
sound like you have performed extensive research and *have data* that
supports your claims. *OTOH you could be making it up from gut feelings,
and IDSTM that there is much support for your gut feeling on this from
this group.

James, it's not hard to look at a frame with 1.5mm clearance around
the tire and realize that a fender won't fit in there. Sure, a Race
Blade might be fitted, but those really aren't the same thing.
They're more akin to a flat piece of plastic zip tied to the rear rack
of a klunker.

I know guys who use race blades (clip on guards over the back wheel),
and I doubt they'd use them if the device didn't do what they wanted it to.

If I see a guy using Race Blades, I assume one of these is true:
A) He's got a frame that doesn't allow full fenders; or
B) He can't figure out how to set up full fenders for quick
installation & removal; or
C) He prefers to block only a small portion of the water spraying off
his wheels, and kind of likes the feel of the rest of it; or
D) He's following the fashion trend set by his friends who use Race
Blades.

I think choice A is both most likely, and kindest.

FWIW I am currently building a bike reusing an 853 lugged frame I had
made over 15 years ago. *It has room for mudguards and I intend to fit
them and use the bike as a winter trainer.

Sounds like a good plan. But you might think about why you're
planning on full mudguards instead of Race Blades. Sounds like both
will fit, no?

BTW, a fender in this country is more likely to be understood as a thing
to fend off a collision, i.e. a car bumper. *If you get caught in a
fender bender, you've had a car crash.

We use the term fender bender as well, but our cars do have fenders -
that is, the (mostly) sheet metal parts of the body that surround the
wheels, usually extending up to the hood (or bonnet, in the UK) and up
to the trunk (or boot).

- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:14:53 PM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2012-12-27 21:43:23 +0000, James said:







Incidentally, Jobst used

to claim that tread-free tires didn't throw enough water to require

fenders. I can't say whether that's true or not.



The tyres I use are slick as possible. Water still flicks off them.

But not having used tyres with tread on the road bike for about 20

something years, I can't remember the difference.



Slick tires throw up more water than threaded tires, certainly more

than tires with knobs especially on a smooth surface. I don't know

where Jobst got that idea.





--



Lou

A lot of people simply don't care if the bike they ride and like to ride has room for fenders or not. They'll ride it in all kinds of weather AND ENJOY IT. A lot of people are just as happy wearing a lightweight rainsuit as others are riding a bike with full fenders and/or mudflaps.

Cheers

On 12/27/2012 5:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 27, 4:43 pm, James wrote:
On 27/12/12 14:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think what happens instead is people assume they can't ride
if the roads are wet.

Can't ride?

They just never consider fenders. And if they
do, many folks find their bike can't be fitted with effective fenders,
because there's no room. (I know about Race Blades, but they're not
nearly as effective, I hear.)

Many folks? How many have you spoken to about this lately? You make it
sound like you have performed extensive research and *have data* that
supports your claims. OTOH you could be making it up from gut feelings,
and IDSTM that there is much support for your gut feeling on this from
this group.

James, it's not hard to look at a frame with 1.5mm clearance around
the tire and realize that a fender won't fit in there. Sure, a Race
Blade might be fitted, but those really aren't the same thing.
They're more akin to a flat piece of plastic zip tied to the rear rack
of a klunker.

I know guys who use race blades (clip on guards over the back wheel),
and I doubt they'd use them if the device didn't do what they wanted it to.

If I see a guy using Race Blades, I assume one of these is true:
A) He's got a frame that doesn't allow full fenders; or
B) He can't figure out how to set up full fenders for quick
installation & removal; or
C) He prefers to block only a small portion of the water spraying off
his wheels, and kind of likes the feel of the rest of it; or
D) He's following the fashion trend set by his friends who use Race
Blades.

I think choice A is both most likely, and kindest.

FWIW I am currently building a bike reusing an 853 lugged frame I had
made over 15 years ago. It has room for mudguards and I intend to fit
them and use the bike as a winter trainer.

Sounds like a good plan. But you might think about why you're
planning on full mudguards instead of Race Blades. Sounds like both
will fit, no?

BTW, a fender in this country is more likely to be understood as a thing
to fend off a collision, i.e. a car bumper. If you get caught in a
fender bender, you've had a car crash.

We use the term fender bender as well, but our cars do have fenders -
that is, the (mostly) sheet metal parts of the body that surround the
wheels, usually extending up to the hood (or bonnet, in the UK) and up
to the trunk (or boot).

- Frank Krygowski


Whether they appeal to your situation or not, they
definitely have a place:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/SKSBLADE.JPG

Choice is good. Someone else's choices are, well, not yours
but not necessarily invalid just because they differ.

I happen to have the luxury of a bike with mudguards and a
race bike without them. Neither is a poor choice, just
different purposes on different days.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Lou wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:42:39 PM UTC-5, Duane Hébert wrote:


Hmm. None of my bikes have fenders. All of them work in the rain. I'm
apt to race any of them. Or is this another "if it isn't totally

functional for carrying loads it isn't a real bike" rant?

As I keep saying, you can ride whatever you like. You can ride in
soaking wet purple lycra shorts if you want ;-) but why would you _not_
want fenders on a bike you were riding on wet roads?
Because on some bikes fenders are a nuisance, why don't you get that. You
get wet and dirty anyway so what is the point? My bike after todays ride.
http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WBvfqx9m1GE/UNsOL6ofeYI/AAAAAAAAEBs/rSyf59yykU4/s1024/IMAGE_0EDEE659-C7EA-43B7-B693-E2414568FF3E.JPG
Do you think fenders would make cleaning the bike, my clothes and myself
unnecesarry? I don't think so, so they are only in the way. Friend
installed a hebieglyder on his ATB. I said that it was useless. After two
weeks he removed it.
--
Lou

l don't know. I get wet, but not dirty, on my fendered bikes.


--
Android Usenet Reader
http://android.newsgroupstats.hk

On 28/12/12 10:03, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 27, 4:43 pm, wrote:
On 27/12/12 14:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think what happens instead is people assume they can't ride
if the roads are wet.

Can't ride?

They just never consider fenders. And if they
do, many folks find their bike can't be fitted with effective fenders,
because there's no room. (I know about Race Blades, but they're not
nearly as effective, I hear.)

Many folks? How many have you spoken to about this lately? You make it
sound like you have performed extensive research and *have data* that
supports your claims. OTOH you could be making it up from gut feelings,
and IDSTM that there is much support for your gut feeling on this from
this group.

James, it's not hard to look at a frame with 1.5mm clearance around
the tire and realize that a fender won't fit in there.

Frank, that's not the point. You claim "many folks" consider fitting
full length fenders and cannot because they bought a bike that was not
suitable. I ask whether you _have data_ to support that claim. I don't
think you have. It's just your gut feel.

It is obvious many road sports/racing bikes would not fit full length
fenders. You seem to be arguing that many folks are disadvantaged as a
result of being duped into buying a bike that wouldn't accept them and
subsequently wanting to fit them. I'm asking for data you must have to
support your claim.

Note that in my LBS, the race bikes make up a small percentage of the
types of bikes on display. From what I have observed, newby riders
choose more MTB style bikes as their first bike because they like the
idea of suspension forks and highly padded seats. To me, that is a more
usual scenario (and mistake) than some newby buying a race bike and then
wanting to fit full length fenders.

Of course once the romance of the cushioned ride wears off and they
wonder how other riders can zip passed on the road at 30 km/h, when they
can only manage 20 km/h, they start looking at why, and realise the MTB
was not such a good choice. Then they buy slicks, bar extensions,
better riding shoes and knicks, and before long a new road/commuter
bike. If they had thought to use fenders with their MTB, undoubtedly
they will think to use fenders on their new bike.

I know guys who use race blades (clip on guards over the back wheel),
and I doubt they'd use them if the device didn't do what they wanted it to.

If I see a guy using Race Blades, I assume one of these is true:
A) He's got a frame that doesn't allow full fenders; or

Possibly true, or he doesn't want to fit something quite as permanent.

B) He can't figure out how to set up full fenders for quick
installation& removal; or

Can't figure out? Most of the people I ride with can manage maintaining
their bicycle. I doubt fitting fenders is a problem. But it is
certainly far quicker to add a clip-on fender than a full length one.

C) He prefers to block only a small portion of the water spraying off
his wheels, and kind of likes the feel of the rest of it; or

More likely he just doesn't like the dirty water up is butt and back.

D) He's following the fashion trend set by his friends who use Race
Blades.

It is certainly not a fashion statement where I ride. We don't look
down our nose at someone who chooses to use them, in whatever form.
Race Blades are used either where full length fenders cannot (your point
A), or for matters of convenience, as in...

E) his training bike is his race bike and he has a race on Saturday
afternoon, so the clip-on allows him to ride on Saturday morning on wet
roads without getting a wet arse, and not have to fuss about for long to
make his bike race ready.

(E) is not a made up situation. A friend does just this. Another has a
wet weather bike with full length fenders. If it looks like rain,
that's what he rides on a social/training/commuting ride.

I think choice A is both most likely, and kindest.

That is your opinion. Got data?

FWIW I am currently building a bike reusing an 853 lugged frame I had
made over 15 years ago. It has room for mudguards and I intend to fit
them and use the bike as a winter trainer.

Sounds like a good plan. But you might think about why you're
planning on full mudguards instead of Race Blades. Sounds like both
will fit, no?

Of course, I have already thought about it. They will be permanent, and
offer more coverage. I hope they will reduce cleaning and maintenance.

--
JS

On Dec 27, 3:03*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 27, 4:43*pm, James wrote:









On 27/12/12 14:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think what happens instead is people assume they can't ride
if the roads are wet.

Can't ride?

They just never consider fenders. *And if they
do, many folks find their bike can't be fitted with effective fenders,
because there's no room. *(I know about Race Blades, but they're not
nearly as effective, I hear.)

Many folks? *How many have you spoken to about this lately? *You make it
sound like you have performed extensive research and *have data* that
supports your claims. *OTOH you could be making it up from gut feelings,
and IDSTM that there is much support for your gut feeling on this from
this group.

James, it's not hard to look at a frame with 1.5mm clearance around
the tire and realize that a fender won't fit in there. *Sure, a Race
Blade might be fitted, but those really aren't the same thing.
They're more akin to a flat piece of plastic zip tied to the rear rack
of a klunker.

I know guys who use race blades (clip on guards over the back wheel),
and I doubt they'd use them if the device didn't do what they wanted it to.

If I see a guy using Race Blades, I assume one of these is true:
A) He's got a frame that doesn't allow full fenders; or
B) He can't figure out how to set up full fenders for quick
installation & removal; or
C) He prefers to block only a small portion of the water spraying off
his wheels, and kind of likes the feel of the rest of it; or
D) He's following the fashion trend set by his friends who use Race
Blades.

I think choice A is both most likely, and kindest.

FWIW I am currently building a bike reusing an 853 lugged frame I had
made over 15 years ago. *It has room for mudguards and I intend to fit
them and use the bike as a winter trainer.

Sounds like a good plan. *But you might think about why you're
planning on full mudguards instead of Race Blades. *Sounds like both
will fit, no?

Note that SKS is now making Race Blades in a long model that basically
approximates what I used to do with Planet Bike and Zefal fenders when
I was fitting them on my old Cannondale racing bike.
http://www.rei.com/product/845810/sk...ender-set-23mm

My kludged fenders worked fine, although there were some issues with
toe clearance. I think fenders keep me cleaner -- and they delay soak
through, but if you ride long enough in the rain . . . fogettaboutit.
For my five mile commute, though, my Amphib tights, shoe covers, sale
table Gore jacket and fenders keep me pretty dry, assuming I don't
take the Greenway home http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/5784270545/
-- or there is not a deluge or tons of standing water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo-XnPJRJVg

-- Jay Beattie.

On Dec 27, 7:46*pm, James wrote:
On 28/12/12 10:03, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 27, 4:43 pm, *wrote:
On 27/12/12 14:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think what happens instead is people assume they can't ride
if the roads are wet.

Can't ride?

They just never consider fenders. *And if they
do, many folks find their bike can't be fitted with effective fenders,
because there's no room. *(I know about Race Blades, but they're not
nearly as effective, I hear.)

Many folks? *How many have you spoken to about this lately? *You make it
sound like you have performed extensive research and *have data* that
supports your claims. *OTOH you could be making it up from gut feelings,
and IDSTM that there is much support for your gut feeling on this from
this group.

James, it's not hard to look at a frame with 1.5mm clearance around
the tire and realize that a fender won't fit in there.

Frank, that's not the point. *You claim "many folks" consider fitting
full length fenders and cannot because they bought a bike that was not
suitable. *I ask whether you _have data_ to support that claim. *I don't
think you have. *It's just your gut feel.

Don't forget the "if" part of what I said. _If_ they consider fitting
fenders, many folks find their bike won't accept real ones.

No, I don't have the data at hand about how many those people would
be. But one way to get a decent handle on it is to find out how many
Race Blades have been sold. Those go mainly to people who can't put
better fenders on their bike.

It is obvious many road sports/racing bikes would not fit full length
fenders.

Yep. That's what I'm saying.

You seem to be arguing that many folks are disadvantaged as a
result of being duped into buying a bike that wouldn't accept them and
subsequently wanting to fit them. *I'm asking for data you must have to
support your claim.

The people who make Race Blades have the data. ;-)

Note that in my LBS, the race bikes make up a small percentage of the
types of bikes on display. *From what I have observed, newby riders
choose more MTB style bikes as their first bike because they like the
idea of suspension forks and highly padded seats. *To me, that is a more
usual scenario (and mistake) than some newby buying a race bike and then
wanting to fit full length fenders.

I agree, that's probably a more common newbie mistake. I think the
almost-zero-clearance racing frame is more common mistake when
someone's deciding they want to really commit to cycling, and get a
"really good" bike.

But even people who have been recreational riders for years often see
little value in fenders. For them, fenders are just "not done,"
because they ride only for fun, only when the weather's nice, never
going someplace where they'll want to be seen in normal clothes, and
the people they ride with never use them. A few are weight weenies or
even aero weenies, concerned that fenders will slow them too much.

If I see a guy using Race Blades, I assume one of these is true:
A) He's got a frame that doesn't allow full fenders; or

Possibly true, or he doesn't want to fit something quite as permanent.

B) He can't figure out how to set up full fenders for quick
installation& *removal; or

Can't figure out? *Most of the people I ride with can manage maintaining
their bicycle. *I doubt fitting fenders is a problem. *But it is
certainly far quicker to add a clip-on fender than a full length one.

C) He prefers to block only a small portion of the water spraying off
his wheels, and kind of likes the feel of the rest of it; or

More likely he just doesn't like the dirty water up is butt and back.

D) He's following the fashion trend set by his friends who use Race
Blades.

It is certainly not a fashion statement where I ride. *We don't look
down our nose at someone who chooses to use them, in whatever form.

I should point out, a person's desire to follow a fashion doesn't
require fashionistas looking down their nose. All it requires is a
guy wanting to fit in with the other guys.

Race Blades are used either where full length fenders cannot (your point
A), or for matters of convenience, as in...

E) his training bike is his race bike and he has a race on Saturday
afternoon, so the clip-on allows him to ride on Saturday morning on wet
roads without getting a wet arse, and not have to fuss about for long to
make his bike race ready.

(E) is not a made up situation. *A friend does just this. *Another has a
wet weather bike with full length fenders. *If it looks like rain,
that's what he rides on a social/training/commuting ride.

I understand. Back when I had only one bike, there was a time I
wanted no fenders for long strenuous rides. I'd put the fenders on
for commuting, and take them off for a long ride with no chance of
rain. I had them set up for easy on, easy off, five minutes. For a
while, I had the mounting screws protruding outward, so I could use
wing nuts to quickly attach and detach at the dropouts. That detail
and other minor fit issues took a while to get exactly right.

But my frame did (does) have clearance for full fenders. I could
still put Race Blades on it, I suppose, if I wanted fenders that
removed in even less time than five minutes - and if I wanted
something more likely to slip out of position, that would throw more
water off the top of the front wheel into my face, and off the front
portion of the back wheel onto my feet...

The question, I think, is why should a bike designed for amateurs not
have the clearance? The tight clearances get you the detriment of
much less effective fenders (or no fenders at all) with no real
benefit. Except, perhaps, fashion.

Of course, we've been through this before.

I think choice A is both most likely, and kindest.

That is your opinion.

Yep. That's what "I think" means.

Got data?

Well, no, it's just what I think. I think most people that had
clearance to fit real fenders would prefer to use them. I don't think
most people like gushers flowing into their shoes.

Since you're so much more into racing than I am, it might be
interesting for you to look at the frames your buddies are riding.
How many of them do have clearance for full fenders? That would be
data.

FWIW I am currently building a bike reusing an 853 lugged frame I had
made over 15 years ago. *It has room for mudguards and I intend to fit
them and use the bike as a winter trainer.

Sounds like a good plan. *But you might think about why you're
planning on full mudguards instead of Race Blades. *Sounds like both
will fit, no?

Of course, I have already thought about it. *They will be permanent, and
offer more coverage. *I hope they will reduce cleaning and maintenance.

I agree, they probably will. Sounds like we both think they're the
better choice.

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 27, 9:18*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

Note that SKS is now making Race Blades in a long model that basically
approximates what I used to do with Planet Bike and Zefal fenders when
I was fitting them on my old Cannondale racing bike.http://www.rei.com/product/845810/sk...ender-set-23mm

I hadn't heard about those. Sounds like they're trying to address
some of the complaints.

- Frank Krygowski

On 28/12/12 14:29, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 27, 7:46 pm, wrote:
On 28/12/12 10:03, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 27, 4:43 pm, wrote:
On 27/12/12 14:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think what happens instead is people assume they can't ride
if the roads are wet.

Can't ride?

They just never consider fenders. And if they
do, many folks find their bike can't be fitted with effective fenders,
because there's no room. (I know about Race Blades, but they're not
nearly as effective, I hear.)

Many folks? How many have you spoken to about this lately? You make it
sound like you have performed extensive research and *have data* that
supports your claims. OTOH you could be making it up from gut feelings,
and IDSTM that there is much support for your gut feeling on this from
this group.

James, it's not hard to look at a frame with 1.5mm clearance around
the tire and realize that a fender won't fit in there.

Frank, that's not the point. You claim "many folks" consider fitting
full length fenders and cannot because they bought a bike that was not
suitable. I ask whether you _have data_ to support that claim. I don't
think you have. It's just your gut feel.

Don't forget the "if" part of what I said. _If_ they consider fitting
fenders, many folks find their bike won't accept real ones.

Wow, how about that. Kind of like buying a sports car and finding it's
no good for towing the caravan.

If someone who has bought a sports car considers towing a caravan with
it, they will likely find their car wont accept it.

Do you think people who bought a sports car will not go on holiday
because they find their car cannot tow a caravan?

Do you advocate that car designers should not design sports cars?

Why not advocate buyer awareness instead of criticizing the design of
sports cars?

It seems trendy to have a small jelly bean vehicle these days, yet I do
not see hoards of jelly bean vehicle owners sobbing in the gutter
because their cars would not pull the skin off a custard.

If folks who buy bicycles are not thoughtful enough about their purchase
up front, that isn't the fault of the bicycle designer, is it?

http://www.trekbikes.com/au/en/bikes/town/models

Wow, what a collection, and 15 from one manufacturer that accept mudguards!

The most expensive (I think) in that range:
http://www.trekbikes.com/au/en/bikes...ss/fx/7_7_fx/#

"Built-in mounts make it easy to add racks and mudguards for added
versatility."

--
JS