First Helmet : jury is out.

That's where you're wrong Frank. Your injury free cycling career is the
exception, not the rule.


I can't claim a full "injury free" career, but my last "injuries" were
bruises some 25 years ago when I did something really stupid as a young
teenager. And I never hit my head, even gently, in 35 years of (road)
cycling. During this period, I did hit it several times, at home, against
doors, ceilings, or furniture, and this has often been very painful.
Perhaps I should wear a helmet when at home.

Jacques

David Kerber wrote:

That's where you're wrong Frank. Your injury free cycling career is the
exception, not the rule.

I doubt it. My last injury was over 30 years ago as well, when I hit a
patch of ice I wasn't expecting while riding in the dark.


How many miles or hours of riding?

Robert

On Tue, 18 May 2004 06:14:02 +0000, R15757 wrote:

That's where you're wrong Frank. Your injury free cycling career is the
exception, not the rule.

Statistics don't seem to bear this out. If you don't believe in
statistics, then I envy you your faith, but I don't share it.

To add to the anecdote pile: no injuries in 20 yrs.

Frank Krygowski wrote:

The exceptional part is that I've almost never fallen. I do have
friends who seem to fall once a year, on average.

The unexceptional part is my lack of serious injury. Contrary to the
hype, injuries beyond abrasions and bruises are very rare. ...


Well I guess I gotta call bull**** on that one, unless you can produce
some numbers that show "injuries beyond abrasions and bruises are
very rare." Good luck.

...Serious head
injuries are vanishingly rare. My clumsiest, one-fall-per-year friend
has never been to the ER, for example. His favorite "trick" is a slow
speed "can't get my foot out" fall, resulting in a skinned knee at worst.

Being familiar with the life stories of literally hundreds of dedicated
cyclists, I have to laugh at your smug anecdotes. I hope you don't
think anecdotes are going to win your "cycling is not dangerous"
argument. Sorry to get dramatic here, but you asked for it.

If you ever see a _compound fracture of the face_ up close, let
alone experience it, it will surely color your perceptions on the
danger of cycling. If you ever ride through a pile of teeth to hold a
friend's hand as he bleeds from the eyesockets and whispers am I
going to die from the red and white mess that used to be the lower
half of his face, and you wonder where the **** is that ambulance?
your perceptions will likewise be changed. If you ever have a friend
who gets smashed by a car, goes to the hospital, and comes out a
week later looking absolutely nothing like he did before the accident,
it might make you think. If you ever have a friend who gets smashed
by a hit and run, wakes up from a coma and can't speak a sentence
(and still can't), that too will mess with your head. I know another
guy who was nearly killed when a car ran a stop--all his ribs were
broken and his diaphragm was torn on one side. The car didn't even
touch him, it hit his back wheel and did its damage from the violence
of the twisting. I have seen all these things and much more.

You would probably like to dismiss these examples as things that
happen to unlawful cyclists riding unsafely, but then you would be
very, very wrong. In all the examples above, except for one that
remains undetermined, an experienced and skilled cyclist was riding
lawfully at the time of a very brutal, life-changing accident. These
were not my clumsiest friends.

I have also seen the usual collarbone breaks, broken wrists,
shoulder dislocations, concussions, lacerations ad nauseum.
Personally I have busted a few ribs, ripped my shoulder but good,
smacked my head on a Mercedes, and almost ripped my pinky finger
clean off. You could poll the newsgroup about their various injuries
but I don't think we have the bandwidth.

We need to keep in mind, most of the baby boom grew up on bikes, riding
them every day. If bicycling were anywhere near as deadly as the
handwringers claim, that entire generation would have been lost!

I am not a "handwringer," Frank. And I have never claimed cycling is
deadly.

Here is where I point out that I and many like me have massively
more experience than you in terms of hours and miles on the bike,
an uncomfortable fact to be sure considering your 30 years of
cycling and pontificating attitude, and we have different stories to
tell than you do.

And here then is where you conveniently bow out of the discussion,
only to resurface in another thread down the line, spouting the
same argument, apparently unwilling to learn a damn thing from
those who know more than you know.

Robert

Erik Freitag wrote:

injury free cycling career is the
exception, not the rule.

Statistics don't seem to bear this out. If you don't believe in
statistics, then I envy you your faith, but I don't share it.

Eh? No, in fact statistics do seem to bear this out. What statistics are you
talking about?

To add to the anecdote pile: no injuries in 20 yrs.

You're adding to the pile all right.

How many miles or hours on the bike in those 20 years? What type of riding?

Robert

In article , r15757
@aol.com says...
David Kerber wrote:

That's where you're wrong Frank. Your injury free cycling career is the
exception, not the rule.

I doubt it. My last injury was over 30 years ago as well, when I hit a
patch of ice I wasn't expecting while riding in the dark.


How many miles or hours of riding?

During the 10 years after that (the interval from 30 years ago to 20
years ago), which covers the period of 8th grade through college
graduation, my bike was my primary mode of transportation, and I put a
lot of hours on it all year around, with no injuries.

Then I had a hiatus of 17 years with little riding. In the last 3
years, I've probaly put 3000 to 5000 miles on, but don't know for sure.
Since last September (when I started tracking mileage), I've put about
1200 miles on. Again, no injuries.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

On 19 May 2004 07:39:06 GMT, (R15757) wrote:

Here is where I point out that I and many like me have massively
more experience than you in terms of hours and miles on the bike,
an uncomfortable fact to be sure considering your 30 years of
cycling and pontificating attitude, and we have different stories to
tell than you do.

And this bears what relationship to most of the cyclists being
discussed? Nevermind that most of the accidents that you describe are
not impacted largely if at all by helmets, your own presumption is
that your small band of brothers are unusual in the amount and nature
of cycling that you do. Therefore any anecdotal evidence from that
group is by your own presumptions not applicable to the general
conversation.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

R15757 wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:

The exceptional part is that I've almost never fallen. I do have
friends who seem to fall once a year, on average.

The unexceptional part is my lack of serious injury. Contrary to the
hype, injuries beyond abrasions and bruises are very rare. ...


Well I guess I gotta call bull**** on that one, unless you can produce
some numbers that show "injuries beyond abrasions and bruises are
very rare." Good luck.

Hmm. Numbers? See below.

Being familiar with the life stories of literally hundreds of dedicated
cyclists, I have to laugh at your smug anecdotes. I hope you don't
think anecdotes are going to win your "cycling is not dangerous"
argument. Sorry to get dramatic here, but you asked for it.

What follows (and is trimmed) is a long list of - anecdotes! What did
NOT follow was a list of numbers! Isn't that ironic?

FWIW, I _am_ familiar with the stories of hundreds of cyclists. I was
president of a fairly large (over 600 member) bike club, as was my wife.
I was also VP (as was my wife), trustee (i.e. pres emeritus, that one
for an extra term), ride captain, etc. I ran a popular invitational
century ride for seven years. I'm currently safety chairman of that club.


I am not a "handwringer," Frank. And I have never claimed cycling is
deadly.

You most certainly are a person who is claiming that cycling is quite
dangerous. If not, what was the point of that post??


Here is where I point out that I and many like me have massively
more experience than you in terms of hours and miles on the bike,

Perhaps you do. I've only been riding as a dedicated adult since 1972
or so. Before that, I rode daily as a kid, from age 4 (roughly) to age
18. But I admit, I took a few years off while I was in college, and
rode only occasionally during those years.

And yes, you may have ridden more miles than I do. I average only about
2500 miles per year. I wish my job didn't take up so much time, but it
does, and cycling is not my only insterest.

You may have commuted by bike more than I do. I've only been doing that
since 1977.

You may have ridden in more cities than I have. My estimate is only a
couple hundred, although I could dig up a better number if you like.
Likewise, I've only ridden in four countries that I can recall.

You may have done more touring than I have. I've done multi-week tours
in only three countries. Most of my bike touring has been for much
shorter time periods. And my longest tour is a mere coast-to-coast,
only 4000 miles. That was completely self-contained, self-planned and
self-navigated, so I didn't get time to observe lots of other tourists
on that one (just my wife and daughter). That made it different from
things like organized centuries, the Great Ohio Bicycle Adventure mass
ride, etc. that I've done.

You may have ridden longer rides than I have. For example, I've only
done one double century.

You've probably done lots more racing than I have. I've only been in a
couple organized road races. I never placed higher than second. And my
time trialing was only low-level club-organized stuff. I've never been
fast enough to get serious about racing. Besides, I consider road
racing to be more dangerous than ordinary cycling.

(Hmmm. I wonder if that affects our difference of opinion?)

Lastly, you may be considered more knowledgeable about bike safety than
I am. It's been a long, long time since I was recruited as an Effective
Cycling instructor (now League Cycling Instructor). I've only been
asked to testify before a state legislative committee on one occasion,
although I've consulted with other statewide committees and
organizations on bike-related matters a couple of other times. But
those weren't legislators, you see.

And you may have studied these issues more than I have. My hardcopy
files on bike safety are only a couple feet thick. My computer files
may be only a few Meg.

In any case, your experience may be greater than mine.

But I still feel reasonably knowledgeable, based on my years of study
and experience.

And here then is where you conveniently bow out of the discussion,
only to resurface in another thread down the line, spouting the
same argument, apparently unwilling to learn a damn thing from
those who know more than you know.

Here is where I'll point you to the article
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/SteppingStones.htm
which discusses the safety of cycling, pointing out that a typical club
cyclist is likely to ride tens of thousands of YEARS before a fatality.

I'll give the estimates for risk of fatality, per million hours,
published by Failure Analysis Associates, which has been given befo

fatalities
Activity per million hrs
-------- ---------------
Skydiving 128.71
General Aviation 15.58
On-road Motorcycling 8.80
Scuba Diving 1.98
Living (all causes of death) 1.53
Swimming 1.07
Snowmobiling .88
Passenger cars .47
Water skiing .28
Bicycling .26
Flying (scheduled domestic airlines) .15
Hunting .08
Cosmic Radiation from transcontinental flights .035
Home Living (active) .027
Traveling in a School Bus .022
Passenger Car Post-collision fire .017
Home Living, active & passive (sleeping) .014
Residential Fire .003
Compiled by Failure Analysis Associates, Inc. (Design News, 10-4-93)

I'll point out, yet again, that bicyclists are less than 1% of the head
injury fatalities in the US, whereas motorists are roughly 50%, despite
seat belts and air bags.

I'll point out that , according to "Bicycle Accidents: An Examination of
Hospital Emergency Room Reports..." by Stutts, J.C. et. al ,
Transportation Research Record 1168, that even of those few cyclists
that present to emergency rooms, the vast majority are for minor
injuries (AIS =1) like scrapes and bruises.

I'll point you to some other discussions of bike safety. Try
http://www.ucolick.org/~de/AltTrans/BikesDangerous.html
or try http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm

And I'll point out once again, that entire generations have grown up
riding bicycles. Once penny-farthing bikes were out of fashion, it was
(quite accurately) NEVER considered an extreme sport, or very likely to
cause serious injury. If it were, the mom's of yesterday (and today)
wouldn't have sent their kids out to ride. Admittedly, false propaganda
is changing that - but I think it's propaganda that needs to be fought!

Now I'll admit, it is _possible_ to get hurt when cycling. I think
gonzo mountain biking - as in, fast rocky downhills, riding off high
drops, downhill racing, etc. - is just foolish. And I think road or
criterium racing, especially among novices, is somewhat risky.

Still, only a tiny minority of cyclists do those things. And (back to
the subject line) even fewer would do it if helmet proponents didn't
give the impression a thin foam hat makes a person bulletproof.

But ordinary cycling, as in riding to work, or riding country roads for
pleasure, or touring, or riding neighborhood streets, or riding to the
store? Yeah, expect to fall off once in a while unless you're really
good. Expect to skin your knee sometime.

But compound fractures? Broken-out teeth? Permanent brain injuries?
Bleeding from the eyes?

Sorry. Those are vanishingly rare. They're accident pornography
described by handwringers with weird agendas.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

On Wed, 19 May 2004 13:28:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But compound fractures? Broken-out teeth? Permanent brain injuries?
Bleeding from the eyes?

Sorry. Those are vanishingly rare. They're accident pornography
described by handwringers with weird agendas.

Getting an urban cyclist to wear a helmet is not a wierd agenda.

Those injuries are very common for big city riders. In Chicago, you'd have
to count on a good crackup every couple years or so if you rode regularly,
most of that involving being whacked by a car. That's the rough average
for me and my buddies who ride in the actual city on actual roads, not
paths. Being hit by a car invites much more serious injury than the
average single bike accident, which usually involves just sliding. I'd say
I saw a cyclist down in the city with compound fractures about every other
month--usually a courier. I rode at night because of my job, and in the
winter, so I fell probably a half dozen times per year myself. I cracked a
helmet about biannually--most of those incidents wouldn't have hurt me too
bad if I hadn't been wearing one, but a couple would have seriously
scrambled my brains, or killed me.

Growing up from the mid 70s and through most of the 90s I did most of my
riding recreationally, or did slow speed utility cycling on old three
speeds in various cities. in 20 years I wiped fewer than half a dozen
times--most often on a rainy day taking a turn too fast on a junker. Never
wore a helmet.

Living in Chicago, I almost always wore a helmet, as I worked as a courier
at times--and as mentioned above, I saw wrecks almost on a daily basis. I
neglected mine about 10% of the time, and it caught up with me. I'm 10k in
debt for medical bills because of that crackup. Did I start wearing a
helmet religiously after that? Nope--what are the chances of that
happening again? Then I started riding long distances here in the hills of
Tennessee--where you often approach speeds of around 50mph on downhills
and the heat is brutal.

I'm wearing mine every day now--it channels the sweat from my eyes and
keeps my bald head from being sunburned.

Accident Pornography? Hysteria? Bull****. It all depends on your mileu
and type of riding. If you're sharing the road with a lot of cars, or
careening down woodsy hills with branches a'threatening, you've
considerably increased your chances of getting whacked.

Anyway, what's so great about not wearing a lid? Freedom? Eh, whatever. At
any rate, I'll be the last guy to yell at someone one the road for not
wearing one (unlike a lot of self righteous *******s) Just don't block my
way on a bike while wearing earphone--that WILL get you a piece of me.

maxo wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2004 13:28:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:


But compound fractures? Broken-out teeth? Permanent brain injuries?
Bleeding from the eyes?

Sorry. Those are vanishingly rare. They're accident pornography
described by handwringers with weird agendas.


Getting an urban cyclist to wear a helmet is not a wierd agenda.

I disagree. The only exceptions, in my mind, are these:

1) You are discussing this with yourself. "Self, wear helmet." I won't
enter into that discussion. You can convince yourself to wear whatever
you like.

2) You are discussing this with your child. I may disagree even then,
but if you don't ask my advice, I'll stay out of it.

If you're getting any other cyclist to wear a helmet, you're simply
butting in where you have no business.


Those injuries are very common for big city riders. In Chicago, you'd have
to count on a good crackup every couple years or so if you rode regularly,
most of that involving being whacked by a car.

yawn Yep, it sure is dangerous where YOU live! We hear that
regularly here.

Is it somehow worse than Pittsburgh? Cleveland? Baltimore? Portland?
LA? Jacksonville? Santa Fe? Columbus? Toronto? Dublin? I've
ridden in all those and many, many more.

I don't buy the "extreme danger in my town" bit, because I've ridden in
enough towns people have described that way.

I think the way you ride makes much more difference than the city you
ride in. Bike couriers, in my observation, tend to break lots of rules,
relying on their reflexes and skills to save them... usually. But when
a courier gets whacked, that doesn't mean all cycling is dangerous. It
may mean riding THAT way is dangerous. Nothing more.

I rode at night because of my job, and in the
winter, so I fell probably a half dozen times per year myself.

Well, I don't know what to tell you. I ride at night frequently. I
ride in winter too - although not much this past winter, I'll admit.
I've fallen once in thirty years (not counting off-road mountain
biking). I've never come close to hitting my head.

Perhaps you should begin wondering what you're doing wrong.

Growing up from the mid 70s and through most of the 90s I did most of my
riding recreationally, or did slow speed utility cycling on old three
speeds in various cities. in 20 years I wiped fewer than half a dozen
times--most often on a rainy day taking a turn too fast on a junker.

Even that sounds like a lot to me.

I mean, I really don't consider myself very special here. My wife has
fallen once, total, AFAIK. My son fell a lot mountain biking, but never
got anything worse than a scratch. My daughter has the family record,
but that record is three falls, all at less than 3 mph.

Accident Pornography? Hysteria? Bull****. It all depends on your mileu
and type of riding. If you're sharing the road with a lot of cars, or
careening down woodsy hills with branches a'threatening, you've
considerably increased your chances of getting whacked.

Sorry, but I still think that writing pages to describe gory
life-threatening injuries that one _might_ get by cycling is both weird
and damaging to cycling. Do you encounter avid swimmers describing the
bloated bodies of the drowned? Do you hear joggers describing the
wounds of fellow joggers who have been hit by cars? Do motorists sit
around discussing the far greater carnage of motor vehicle accidents?

Why is it that some cyclists are so eager to disparage this fine activity?



Anyway, what's so great about not wearing a lid? Freedom? Eh, whatever.

Freedom may mean nothing to you, but it means something to me. So does
encouraging cycling, rather than disparaging it. So does speaking out
of factual knowledge, not spouting scary innuendo and anecdotes.

But maybe that's just me, eh?



--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]