First Helmet : jury is out.

Frank K wrote in part:

Well I guess I gotta call bull**** on that one, unless you can produce
some numbers that show "injuries beyond abrasions and bruises are
very rare." Good luck.

Hmm. Numbers? See below.


You gave--once again, like a freakin' broken record--fatality stats,
which have nothing to do with your completely unfounded claim that
"injuries beyond abrasions and bruises are very rare."

Are you really that dense? FATALITY STATS DO NOT DEFINE THE
DANGER OF CYCLING. Whew. That felt good.

There aren't any numbers that back up your claim. Admit it, stop
sneaking around.

And yes, you may have ridden more miles than I do. I average only about
2500 miles per year. I wish my job didn't take up so much time, but it
does, and cycling is not my only insterest.

snip rest of passive-aggressive claim to massive experience

Frank, I'm guessing I'm about half your age, and I already have
accumulated three times your total mileage. My miles were primarily
in city traffic rather than on the open road. Three times, Frank.
Think of how much more experience I might have when I'm your age.
You might want to just go back to bed now.

And you may have studied these issues more than I have. My hardcopy
files on bike safety are only a couple feet thick. My computer files
may be only a few Meg.

You got some damn _injury_ numbers in that pile that support your
position? (No, you don't.) To hell with your almost completely
useless stack of paper. It's a joke.

But compound fractures? Broken-out teeth? Permanent brain injuries?
Bleeding from the eyes?

Sorry. Those are vanishingly rare. They're accident pornography
described by handwringers with weird agendas.

So what do you think my agenda is, Frank?

The only agenda I have is to tell the truth about riding in traffic.
Anybody who can call these experiences "accident pornography"
obviously is speaking from complete innocence, and not only that,
but you're being disrespectful to my friends who suffered these
injuries.

Anybody riding in traffic could suffer the same fate.

Robert

Curtis L. Russell wrote:

And this bears what relationship to most of the cyclists being
discussed? Nevermind that most of the accidents that you describe are
not impacted largely if at all by helmets, ...

Wait a second, who said anything about helmets? Not
me.

...your own presumption is
that your small band of brothers are unusual in the amount and nature
of cycling that you do. Therefore any anecdotal evidence from that
group is by your own presumptions not applicable to the general
conversation.

I think this is a bizarre argument: we have tons more
experience than average cyclists and therefore our
experiences are not valid when discussing average
cycling.

I think the ones who do the most riding in traffic will
know the most about it.

Robert

Frank K trotted out that old chart:


I'll give the estimates for risk of fatality, per million hours,
published by Failure Analysis Associates, which has been given befo

snip chart

Frank, what methodology was used for this study?

Robert

On Wed, 19 May 2004 08:52:05 +0000, R15757 wrote:

Eh? No, in fact statistics do seem to bear this out. What statistics are
you talking about?

I'll go with Mr. Krygowski's numbers quoted earlier. You may think that
fatalities or ER visits aren't an indicator of the likelihood of a
non-fatal injury, but I do. Again, for those with faith, no amount of fact
will make a difference.

What are the statistics which bear out your hypothesis "bicycling injuries
are not rare"?

To add to the anecdote pile: no injuries in 20 yrs.

You're adding to the pile all right.

Glad you agree that anecdotes don't add to our information about the
(non-)dangers of cycling.


How many miles or hours on the bike in those 20 years? What type of
riding?

1000 - 3000 mi/yr, like normal people. I think we can all agree that you
ride a lot more than normal people, and you seem to get hurt at a higher
rate than the rest of us too. Weren't you the fellow who claimed that
scrotal punctures were a common bicycle injury? I think you may need to
review your riding style or conditions.

On Wed, 19 May 2004 18:37:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Perhaps you should begin wondering what you're doing wrong.

Perhaps you should stop being an arrogant prick dumb****. Next time you
spill your brains on the road--that'll be me laughing, not because you
chose to ride without a helmet, I don't care if you do or don't, but
because the world will be rid of another self righteous turd.

Your rhetoric reminds of of John Ashcroft actually, you know the bit about
the "phantoms of lost liberty". Sounds like your drivel on the subject of
lids.

I really don't like Ashcroft...

oh,

*plonk*

Erik Freitag wrote:

I'll go with Mr. Krygowski's numbers quoted earlier. ..

baaaa

You may think that
fatalities or ER visits aren't an indicator of the likelihood of a
non-fatal injury, but I do.

OK. About one million cyclists visit the ER in the US
each year. Another one million see their doctor
annually on an outpatient basis concerning some
cycling-related injury (according to USCPSC NEISS). Some of the er and doctor
visits
are for bull**** injuries, but many real injuries go
unreported--in ER files and among cyclists who do not
seek medical treatment for things like cracked ribs,
ripped shoulders, broken fingers, lacerations,
concussions.

Again, for those with faith, no amount of fact
will make a difference.

What are you talking about, faith in the Great
Krygowski?

What are the statistics which bear out your hypothesis "bicycling injuries
are not rare"?

The NEISS emergency room stats, and stats gathered
by John Forester that show very experienced cyclists
are likely to suffer injury every 15,000 miles or so, a
rate of injury that is (according to Forester) reduced
approx. 80% from the rate of beginners.

1000 - 3000 mi/yr, like normal people. I think we can all agree that you
ride a lot more than normal people, and you seem to get hurt at a higher
rate than the rest of us too.

I don't think so. 3 injury-causing wrecks in more than
200,000 miles of adult cycling, that's a pretty fair
record. I feel like I've gotten off scot free compared
to many of my friends. I understand that could change
at any second, which is precisely why it's unlikely to.

Weren't you the fellow who claimed that
scrotal punctures were a common bicycle injury?

Nobody made that claim.

I think you may need to
review your riding style or conditions.

Something every rider should do every second they're
in traffic. That's the whole point dude.

Robert

S O R N I wrote:
Neil, there's got to be a way to show QUOTING in your posts (I read
your second note about Cycling Forums); either configure your
newsreader or just access Usenet directly? (No idea what I just said,
but it sounded good.)
Vandenut uses a silly '.' to denote quoted text, which is extremely hard
to read (especially long threads), but at least it's something. You make
these LONG posts with nothing differentiating your added words to those
to which you're replying, and it's just plain unreadable (or at least,
no one with a life should have enough time to decipher it).
S.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm reading this on Cyclingforums.com and Neils posts come across jus
fine (referring to presentation only) to me and look to have the sam
format/presentation as my posts. Unless we are able to see what it look
like to the others on usenet we have no feedback on how we might chang
- and besides it takes an effort

As for content - I reckon Frank's responses are superb - Neil doesn'
seem to able to see his own preconceptions - keep at it Fran

Roge


-

On Thu, 20 May 2004 04:42:10 +0000, R15757 wrote:

Erik Freitag wrote:

I'll go with Mr. Krygowski's numbers quoted earlier. ..

baaaa

Now there's a cogent refutation.

You may think that
fatalities or ER visits aren't an indicator of the likelihood of a
non-fatal injury, but I do.

OK. About one million cyclists visit the ER in the US each year. Another
one million see their doctor annually on an outpatient basis concerning
some cycling-related injury (according to USCPSC NEISS). Some of the er
and doctor visits
are for bull**** injuries, but many real injuries go unreported--in ER
files and among cyclists who do not seek medical treatment for things
like cracked ribs, ripped shoulders, broken fingers, lacerations,
concussions.

OK, the USCPSC NEISS stats are numbers instead of stories. I'll try to
look them up, although I'm not sure I'll be able to afford it ($595!).
Before everyone jumps on me, I have checked my city and county libraries,
but I haven't given up yet.

Kind of hard to verify your claim that real injuries go unreported,
although I don't doubt that it is true. Plenty of room for disagreement on
the definition of "many".

Other statistics on ER visits, quoted earlier may differ with this study.

Again, for those with faith, no amount of fact will make a
difference.

What are you talking about, faith in the Great Krygowski?

I don't think I'm the one with faith. As I said, I envy you yours, but
don't share it. Maybe it is not intentional, but your writing seems to me
to say that bicycle operation, especially in traffic, is unqualifiedly
dangerous. From this I infer that you think it should be discouraged. Is
that correct?

What are the statistics which bear out your hypothesis "bicycling
injuries are not rare"?

The NEISS emergency room stats, and stats gathered by John Forester that
show very experienced cyclists are likely to suffer injury every 15,000
miles or so, a rate of injury that is (according to Forester) reduced
approx. 80% from the rate of beginners.

Like I said, numbers I can read. Thanks for the reference. Maybe we're
just disagreeing about the definition of "rare".

1000 - 3000 mi/yr, like normal people. I think we can all agree that
you ride a lot more than normal people, and you seem to get hurt at a
higher rate than the rest of us too.

Weren't you the fellow who claimed that scrotal punctures were a
common
bicycle injury?

Nobody made that claim.

You may want to review this and the thread that follows. I think you'll
see why I might have thought you said that.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...mb-m04.aol.com

I think you may need to
review your riding style or conditions.

Something every rider should do every second they're in traffic. That's
the whole point dude.

Now there's a new idea. I'll keep it in mind. Do you think it might be
possible to reduce the likelihood of death or injury by maintaining that
attitude? I do.

Erik Freitag wrote in part:

OK, the USCPSC NEISS stats are numbers instead of stories. I'll try to
look them up, although I'm not sure I'll be able to afford it ($595!).
Before everyone jumps on me, I have checked my city and county libraries,
but I haven't given up yet.

You don't want the whole thing, I imagine it would fill a
small room with boxes of files.

If you get your hands on the bike-specific NEISS stats,
don't get too excited about them. They might be the
best numbers available to determine ER and doctor
visits annually, but they are not good for much else.
You will see that descriptions and classifications are
vague and jumbled, that childrens' injuries and adult
injuries and mtn. bike injuries and road bike injuries are
all lumped in together, that mouth injuries are
classified as head injuries, and other typical pitfalls of
bike accident stats.

Kind of hard to verify your claim that real injuries go unreported

Not "kind of hard"--impossible.

One thing I will say--I have never known anyone who
went to the doctor or ER because of bruises or road
rash or whatever. But I know dozens who suffered real
injuries but did not seek medical attention.

Plenty of room for disagreement on
the definition of "many"

How 'bout the definition of "injury?"

So you like facts eh. Here's a fact for ya: Chasing
bicycle accident statistics is a fool's game.


I don't think I'm the one with faith. As I said, I envy you yours, but
don't share it. Maybe it is not intentional, but your writing seems to me
to say that bicycle operation, especially in traffic, is unqualifiedly
dangerous. ...

There is a Dark Side that needs to be respected.
Where is the respect? All I hear is smugness. There is
a bloody potential that hangs over urban cyclists. If
you understand the potential, it remains just that. If
you can keep an eye on it, you're good. If you don't
understand the potential, the potential will make you
understand. If you forget about the potential, the
potential will make you remember.

From this I infer that you think it should be discouraged. Is
that correct?

No. To me, the twin concepts of discouraging cycling
or encouraging cycling seem equally ridiculous. I just
ride. I always have, I always will. Other people will do
what other people do.

I think that if there are beginners out there who, like
me, just love to ride no matter what, they deserve to
hear the gods honest truth, so they can achieve the
right mindset to help them avoid trouble. They're going
to ride anyway. But I guess doing so would be
"desparaging cycling."

Nobody made that claim.

You may want to review this and the thread that follows. I think you'll
see why I might have thought you said that

I know, I know...


Do you think it might be
possible to reduce the likelihood of death or injury by maintaining that
attitude? I do.

I do too.

Robert

Frank Krygowski wrote:

I can't generate many weird anecdotes, anyway. I've had only one
super-slow on-road fall in over 30 years, and I've never come close to
hitting my head. Not very remarkable.

Just like most cyclists' experiences, I dare say.

I started riding a bike in the late 50's and 60's, going to
school and riding around neighborhoods. Of course no one
wore helmets back then.

Yet to listen to helmet promoters speak, it would seem no kid
should have had any right to see their 20's! We should all
be dead from brain injuries sustained in bike crashes.

And boy did we crash our bikes!

The crash results of my childhood/teens were pretty much skinned
knees and arms. Occasionally a knock on the head, and the far
too common fall onto the top tube when the chain slid off the
crank (oouuuchhh!).

Now days, the injuries seem to be near death experiences that
only helmet use has prevented from ending a life!


SMH