Wrong wrong wrong.... (ON topic)

On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:11 -0800 (PST), "D'ohBoy"
wrote:

On Mar 2, 11:07*am, Tom Ace wrote:
On Mar 2, 6:07*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:

Firstly, and most importantly: *braking is as good as with any of my
alloy rims! *Did a coupla panic stops, and some more gradual braking
during bombing a hill, with an anticipated turn at the bottom type
braking. *Yes, the brakes did require a bit more modulation but
certainly I was able to stop and control braking as well as ever.

Can you say what made them need more modulation?
Were they grabby? *Was braking force less linear with
respect to force applied at the lever?

Actually, it was as Mr. Holtman described earlier - won't grab hard
initially, but you don't want to clamp down as they (the brakepads)
will heat up and start to grab big time. This occurs rapidly and a
gentle application of force to the brake pad will actually stop me as
well as moderate force on alloy rims.

So not only is there a lack of 'linearity' but also a time-based
component to the braking. Took me all of one hard brake application
to fully understand it (knew what to expect from the earlier thread on
these and other carbon rims) and to be able to brake well and quickly.

Anyhoo, the wheels climb like a monkey, [...]

And this means... what?

This means the following: my subjective perception is that they
accelerate better than wheels that are heavier at the rim.


If the rims weigh less than aluminum rims, the difference
is on the order of a quarter of one percent of total bike
plus rider weight: *not the stuff that significantly easier
climbing is made of.

The benefits of these rims are in the realm (based on my current
experience, more to come) of being a great combination of aero AND
light weight that I cannot get from an alloy rim. These are not
generally for duffers, and alloy rims are, I agree, the best most cost
effective solution for most people.

I can see you are in the camp that feels that rotating weight is
meaningless . Not to start that whole kerfuffle again.


Tom Ace

D'ohBoy

Dear D,

Does the subjective perception of how the wheels climb change if you
remember to add the weight of the tires and tubes to the finished
wheel weight?

:-)

Perceptions aside, it sounds as if you had fun building the wheels and
even more fun riding them.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Mar 2, 11:41*am, wrote:
On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:11 -0800 (PST), "D'ohBoy"



wrote:
On Mar 2, 11:07*am, Tom Ace wrote:
On Mar 2, 6:07*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:

Firstly, and most importantly: *braking is as good as with any of my
alloy rims! *Did a coupla panic stops, and some more gradual braking
during bombing a hill, with an anticipated turn at the bottom type
braking. *Yes, the brakes did require a bit more modulation but
certainly I was able to stop and control braking as well as ever.

Can you say what made them need more modulation?
Were they grabby? *Was braking force less linear with
respect to force applied at the lever?

Actually, it was as Mr. Holtman described earlier - won't grab hard
initially, but you don't want to clamp down as they (the brakepads)
will heat up and start to grab big time. *This occurs rapidly and a
gentle application of force to the brake pad will actually stop me as
well as moderate force on alloy rims.

So not only is there a lack of 'linearity' but also a time-based
component to the braking. *Took me all of one hard brake application
to fully understand it (knew what to expect from the earlier thread on
these and other carbon rims) and to be able to brake well and quickly.

Anyhoo, the wheels climb like a monkey, [...]

And this means... what?

This means the following: my subjective perception is that they
accelerate better than wheels that are heavier at the rim.

If the rims weigh less than aluminum rims, the difference
is on the order of a quarter of one percent of total bike
plus rider weight: *not the stuff that significantly easier
climbing is made of.

The benefits of these rims are in the realm (based on my current
experience, more to come) of being a great combination of aero AND
light weight that I cannot get from an alloy rim. * These are not
generally for duffers, and alloy rims are, I agree, the best most cost
effective solution for most people.

I can see you are in the camp that feels that rotating weight is
meaningless . *Not to start that whole kerfuffle again.

Tom Ace

D'ohBoy

Dear D,

Does the subjective perception of how the wheels climb change if you
remember to add the weight of the tires and tubes to the finished
wheel weight?

*:-)

Perceptions aside, it sounds as if you had fun building the wheels and
even more fun riding them.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Can't say as I run the same tubes/tires on all wheels - including
these.

Indeed with the fun! If it ain't fun, and you aren't getting any ROI,
there's no reason to do it :-D

D'ohBoy

On Mar 2, 9:22*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:

Anyhoo, the wheels climb like a monkey, [...]

And this means... what?

This means the following: my subjective perception is that they
accelerate better than wheels that are heavier at the rim.

When you said "climbing" I thought you meant going
uphill for a while, where acceleration isn't the point.


I can see you are in the camp that feels that rotating weight is
meaningless . *Not to start that whole kerfuffle again.

Mass at the edge of a wheel has twice the effect on
acceleration that non-rotating mass has. But climbing
is about lifting weight, not accelerating.


Tom Ace

On Mar 2, 12:58*pm, Tom Ace wrote:
On Mar 2, 9:22*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:

Anyhoo, the wheels climb like a monkey, [...]

And this means... what?

This means the following: my subjective perception is that they
accelerate better than wheels that are heavier at the rim.

When you said "climbing" I thought you meant going
uphill for a while, where acceleration isn't the point.

I can see you are in the camp that feels that rotating weight is
meaningless . *Not to start that whole kerfuffle again.

Mass at the edge of a wheel has twice the effect on
acceleration that non-rotating mass has. *But climbing
is about lifting weight, not accelerating.

Tom Ace

Sorry, yes, accelerate, not climb - and despite my lack of
specificity, I enjoyed both the acceleration and the climbing on these
wheels, as my weight makes it such that I cannot enjoy sub 1kg
climbing wheels.

So ~1500 gms (or ~1300 with a non-powertap hub) is about as light as I
can go. Compared to climbing with a set of first gen Campy 10 36 hole
hubs laced to CXP-33s, these are more 'enjoyable' and ARE easier to
climb with.

And certainly acceleration while climbing will be less fatiguing.

Thanks - I am now in my place - which is pretty much where I was
before only now I will never improperly substitute climbing for
acceleration when talking about rotating weight.

;-)

D'ohBoy

On Mar 2, 7:07*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:

[snip]

Anyhoo, the wheels climb like a monkey, spin up nice . . .

[snip]

Dear D,

Some examples of climbing and accelerating for different wheelsets
from Analytic Cycling remind us that when combined with a bike and
rider, most wheelsets climb like a monkey and spin up nice.

You might have some fun working out how your wheels would compa

http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsInertia_Page.html

Tom Compton's calculations include rotating mass. Here's his page of
calculators:

http://www.analyticcycling.com/

***

[Two amazingly identical riders climb an 8% grade for 5 km with
different example wheelsets and the combination of aerodynamics and
grade change the results . . .]

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 2.5 meters or 0.5 second at
the top. Change the slope to a 13% slope and the Specialized rider
would be behind by 1 meter."

http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsClimb_Page.html

***

[Two amazingly identical riders sprint with two different wheelsets
250 meters from the finish line and one finishes a full 1,000
millimeters in front . . . ]

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 1 meter or 0.08 seconds."

http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsSprint_Page.html

***

[Two amazingly identical riders jump from the corner with different
example wheelsets and after 100 meters, a full 180 millimeters
separates them . . . ]

"The motion equations say that the rider on the Specialized wheels
will be ahead by 18 cm after 100 meters, or about 0.015 seconds . . ."

http://www.analyticcycling.com/Wheel...rner_Page.html

***

Never underestimate the power of positive thinking.

:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Mar 2, 10:57*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:

Anyhoo - yah the Aerohead is okay. *Not quite the rim for daily use
for a big boy (~95 kg) tho unless you go 36 spoke.

Have a buddy who goes around 240 - 250 and he put his 36 spoke OCR
Aerohead outta true every coupla weeks. *Finally talked him into
picking up my old pair of 36 spoke CXP-33s. *Now he never has to
true. *Complains the bike feels heavy when he lifts it but he really
likes how they ride and *stay true*.

My OC's have stayed true, including some riding at or close to your
friend's weight. And lots of miles @ 210-215 lbs.
I have one set, 32h, one set, 36's. I broke a spoke right before a
mile or two long section of pretty rough gravel road on the 32f. It
didn't go out of true enough to bother braking with a Campy DP front
brake, and finished the second half of the 55-ish mile ride with no
further appreciable deformation. It does have a slight wobble in it
now, but that rim has been "daily" for years now-- IOW, "forgiven", as
it has been smacked but good at least a few times while wearing a 23mm
tire. Good use from a light clincher rim that doesn't cost the moon
and stars.

Don't know why it took him so long to realize the Aeroheads just
weren't for him, even in OCR format.

I'm not saying the A-H's *are* for him. Velocity Fusion might be, at
roughly the same weight.

The Deep V might be more of a tandem rim ("heat sink") or for low
spoke count wheels.
--D-y

On Mar 2, 3:43*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 2, 7:07*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:

[snip]

Anyhoo, the wheels climb like a monkey, spin up nice . . .

[snip]

Dear D,

Some examples of climbing and accelerating for different wheelsets
from Analytic Cycling remind us that when combined with a bike and
rider, most wheelsets climb like a monkey and spin up nice.

You might have some fun working out how your wheels would compa

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsInertia_Page.html

Tom Compton's calculations include rotating mass. Here's his page of
calculators:

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/

***

[Two amazingly identical riders climb an 8% grade for 5 km with
different example wheelsets and the combination of aerodynamics and
grade change the results . . .]

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 2.5 meters or 0.5 second at
the top. Change the slope to a 13% slope and the Specialized rider
would be behind by 1 meter."

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsClimb_Page.html

***

[Two amazingly identical riders sprint with two different wheelsets
250 meters from the finish line and one finishes a full 1,000
millimeters in front . . . ]

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 1 meter or 0.08 seconds."

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsSprint_Page.html

***

[Two amazingly identical riders jump from the corner with different
example wheelsets and after 100 meters, a full 180 millimeters
separates them . . . ]

"The motion equations say that the rider on the Specialized wheels
will be ahead by 18 cm after 100 meters, or about 0.015 seconds . . ."

http://www.analyticcycling.com/Wheel...rner_Page.html

***

Never underestimate the power of positive thinking.

*:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Hi, Carl -

Yah, yah, this is like the kabillionth time you have trotted out those
sites. You're getting some kickass mileage outta that but it is
getting a bit old.

Screw that ****e; here's a question for you: would you want a placebo
that fooled your brain into fooling your body into curing your cancer
or would you rather know that the placebo was biochemically inert and
die a horribly painful death?

I'm guessing you'd rather have the truth. I'll dance on your
grave ;-)

All my best,

D'ohBoy

On Mar 2, 1:59*pm, "D'ohBoy" wrote:
On Mar 2, 3:43*pm, "
wrote:





On Mar 2, 7:07*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:

[snip]

Anyhoo, the wheels climb like a monkey, spin up nice . . .

[snip]

Dear D,

Some examples of climbing and accelerating for different wheelsets
from Analytic Cycling remind us that when combined with a bike and
rider, most wheelsets climb like a monkey and spin up nice.

You might have some fun working out how your wheels would compa

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsInertia_Page.html

Tom Compton's calculations include rotating mass. Here's his page of
calculators:

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/

***

[Two amazingly identical riders climb an 8% grade for 5 km with
different example wheelsets and the combination of aerodynamics and
grade change the results . . .]

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 2.5 meters or 0.5 second at
the top. Change the slope to a 13% slope and the Specialized rider
would be behind by 1 meter."

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsClimb_Page.html

***

[Two amazingly identical riders sprint with two different wheelsets
250 meters from the finish line and one finishes a full 1,000
millimeters in front . . . ]

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 1 meter or 0.08 seconds."

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsSprint_Page.html

***

[Two amazingly identical riders jump from the corner with different
example wheelsets and after 100 meters, a full 180 millimeters
separates them . . . ]

"The motion equations say that the rider on the Specialized wheels
will be ahead by 18 cm after 100 meters, or about 0.015 seconds . . ."

http://www.analyticcycling.com/Wheel...rner_Page.html

***

Never underestimate the power of positive thinking.

*:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Hi, Carl -

Yah, yah, this is like the kabillionth time you have trotted out those
sites. *You're getting some kickass mileage outta that but it is
getting a bit old.

Screw that ****e; here's a question for you: *would you want a placebo
that fooled your brain into fooling your body into curing your cancer
or would you rather know that the placebo was biochemically inert and
die a horribly painful death?

I'm guessing you'd rather have the truth. * I'll dance on your
grave ;-)

All my best,

D'ohBoy- Hide quoted text -

I'll leave you two alone to work this out, but for Carl, apart from
weight, the stiffness of the front end makes a lot of difference for a
larger rider. I figure that the stiffness of OP's built wheel in
addition to its slightly lighter weight could reasonably make a
difference in climbing feel.

IMO, a stiffer fork would make more of a difference. I owned a frame
that had Al forks that felt like I was climbing on a pogo stick.
Swaping out those forks made a night and day difference.

But a stiff, light set of wheels with the right tires at the right
inflation pressure can certainly make a noticeable difference,
although I don't know about climbing like a monkey and all that
stuff. I would think it would be a rather subtle change from a
reasonably light, CPX 33-based wheel.-- Jay Beattie.

On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:59:45 -0800 (PST), "D'ohBoy"
wrote:

On Mar 2, 3:43*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 2, 7:07*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:

[snip]

Anyhoo, the wheels climb like a monkey, spin up nice . . .

[snip]

Dear D,

Some examples of climbing and accelerating for different wheelsets
from Analytic Cycling remind us that when combined with a bike and
rider, most wheelsets climb like a monkey and spin up nice.

You might have some fun working out how your wheels would compa

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsInertia_Page.html

Tom Compton's calculations include rotating mass. Here's his page of
calculators:

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/

***

[Two amazingly identical riders climb an 8% grade for 5 km with
different example wheelsets and the combination of aerodynamics and
grade change the results . . .]

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 2.5 meters or 0.5 second at
the top. Change the slope to a 13% slope and the Specialized rider
would be behind by 1 meter."

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsClimb_Page.html

***

[Two amazingly identical riders sprint with two different wheelsets
250 meters from the finish line and one finishes a full 1,000
millimeters in front . . . ]

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 1 meter or 0.08 seconds."

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsSprint_Page.html

***

[Two amazingly identical riders jump from the corner with different
example wheelsets and after 100 meters, a full 180 millimeters
separates them . . . ]

"The motion equations say that the rider on the Specialized wheels
will be ahead by 18 cm after 100 meters, or about 0.015 seconds . . ."

http://www.analyticcycling.com/Wheel...rner_Page.html

***

Never underestimate the power of positive thinking.

*:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Hi, Carl -

Yah, yah, this is like the kabillionth time you have trotted out those
sites.

[snip]

Dear D,

It's easy to weigh wheelsets without tires.

It's easy to imagine faster climbing and greater accelertion after you
spend that much time and money.

Heck, it's easy to start talking about "duffers" and imply that only
the cognoscenti can detect the difference.

But it's easy to look at Analytic Cycling's calculators and see that
most of the improved acceleration and climbing speed occurs between
the rider's ears.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying high-tech equipment and measuring
grams on wheels without any tires, bicycles, or riders attached.

But this is about the kabillionth time that a happy fellow has
announced that his wonderful new wheelset climbs like a monkey and
spins up nicely because it's reduced the weight that he's raising up
the hill less than 1%.

So I'll keep trotting out those sites that suggest that whatever's
being felt isn't any palpable increase in climbing speed or
acceleration.

Feel free use Analytic Cycling's fantastic calculators and show us
some astonishing numbers derived from a 1 kg weight reduction on a
70~100 kg rider and bike.

Regardless, enjoy riding your new wheels.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:51:51 -0800 (PST), jwbinpdx
wrote:

On Mar 2, 1:59*pm, "D'ohBoy" wrote:
On Mar 2, 3:43*pm, "
wrote:





On Mar 2, 7:07*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:

[snip]

Anyhoo, the wheels climb like a monkey, spin up nice . . .

[snip]

Dear D,

Some examples of climbing and accelerating for different wheelsets
from Analytic Cycling remind us that when combined with a bike and
rider, most wheelsets climb like a monkey and spin up nice.

You might have some fun working out how your wheels would compa

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsInertia_Page.html

Tom Compton's calculations include rotating mass. Here's his page of
calculators:

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/

***

[Two amazingly identical riders climb an 8% grade for 5 km with
different example wheelsets and the combination of aerodynamics and
grade change the results . . .]

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 2.5 meters or 0.5 second at
the top. Change the slope to a 13% slope and the Specialized rider
would be behind by 1 meter."

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsClimb_Page.html

***

[Two amazingly identical riders sprint with two different wheelsets
250 meters from the finish line and one finishes a full 1,000
millimeters in front . . . ]

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 1 meter or 0.08 seconds."

*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsSprint_Page.html

***

[Two amazingly identical riders jump from the corner with different
example wheelsets and after 100 meters, a full 180 millimeters
separates them . . . ]

"The motion equations say that the rider on the Specialized wheels
will be ahead by 18 cm after 100 meters, or about 0.015 seconds . . ."

http://www.analyticcycling.com/Wheel...rner_Page.html

***

Never underestimate the power of positive thinking.

*:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Hi, Carl -

Yah, yah, this is like the kabillionth time you have trotted out those
sites. *You're getting some kickass mileage outta that but it is
getting a bit old.

Screw that ****e; here's a question for you: *would you want a placebo
that fooled your brain into fooling your body into curing your cancer
or would you rather know that the placebo was biochemically inert and
die a horribly painful death?

I'm guessing you'd rather have the truth. * I'll dance on your
grave ;-)

All my best,

D'ohBoy- Hide quoted text -

I'll leave you two alone to work this out, but for Carl, apart from
weight, the stiffness of the front end makes a lot of difference for a
larger rider. I figure that the stiffness of OP's built wheel in
addition to its slightly lighter weight could reasonably make a
difference in climbing feel.

IMO, a stiffer fork would make more of a difference. I owned a frame
that had Al forks that felt like I was climbing on a pogo stick.
Swaping out those forks made a night and day difference.

But a stiff, light set of wheels with the right tires at the right
inflation pressure can certainly make a noticeable difference,
although I don't know about climbing like a monkey and all that
stuff. I would think it would be a rather subtle change from a
reasonably light, CPX 33-based wheel.-- Jay Beattie.

Dear Jay,

I agree that any increase in climbing speed or acceleration would be
rather subtle.

After all, the weight difference is probably less than 1% of the total
mass being accelerated or raised up a hill.

It's easy to be dazzled by the "big" difference between two bare
wheelsets and forget how small it is compared to the difference
between the wheelsets with tires, bicycle, and rider attached.

I expect that it's a nice bike and fun to ride, but I suspect that
most of the climbing and acceleration difference being felt is
imaginary.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel