cycling Sierra Nevadas

on the map looks like St G is a burb of LVN.

My forays into UT were to Capitol Reef and environs ..... absorbing for a poss film script.

I was continuously attacked. Prostitutes ran campgrounds controlled hiking. No dough no camping.

Attacked at Walmart. Walmart cheered the attack. Walmart(s)

Witnessed for an auto accident, the cops hooted jeered and threatened.

Of the people, families claimed X acres. Over time land was divided, subdivided...until the process forced the next generation flight to South America for genocide and national theft.

Heavy going.

I have not seen any bicycles in UT. and not in Zion fersure.

But never been near Moab which is in Colorado

On 2016-06-22 12:47, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 7:38:17 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 13:45, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 1:08:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 11:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 9:59:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 09:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 7:38:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 07:30, wrote:

https://goo.gl/ZyQCtf


Yeah, it's almost paradise out here. There aren't many
places where you get to enjoy vistas like this on the trail
from Lotus to Folsom and they can only be reached via MTB,
hiking or some on horseback:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/...ronanTrail.JPG

Thinking about whether moving to the St.George area (Utah)
would make sense. A friend with similar ideas just scoped
that out last week and I'll get to ask him about it on a
ride this week. Their MTB trails are better but AFAICT
roads have little to no bicycle infrastructure and I
wouldn't like that.

Most roads have little to no bicycle infrastructure -- at
least the roads in rural America. I don't know why you think
St. George would be any different. It's not the Netherlands.


In our area (near Sacramento, CA) many roads do have a bicycle
infrastructure and this includes rural ones. Whenever a road
section is widened or restored from the ground up they put in
bike lanes. Must be some kind of law. For example, I use this
road a lot and since they provided wide enough shoulders and
bike lanes the number of cyclists there has substantially
increased, including longhaul commuters:

https://goo.gl/maps/zL1zGuAvTwN2

This is also the road where, further down towards Folsom, a
cyclist was killed in the lane. Now there are bike lanes at
that four-lane stretch and she would still be alive had they
been in back then.

Unfortunately that sometimes leads to a row of orphaned bike
lanes but that is still better than nothing.

Long story short I prefer areas that are not a step back WRT
ease and safety of bicycling versus where we live now. For me
that's not just MTB trails but I also want to be able to handle
errands by bike like I do now. I prefer not to have to ride in
the lane a lot for that.


Dude, get a spine.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...y_limits_1.jpg




Piece of cake, that sort of road I'd take any day and I do that a lot
here. This, OTOH, is absolutely not cool:

https://goo.gl/maps/tDXgBjBivPn


Why would you ever be on UT-59 or go to Colorado City? Are you FLDS?


No, I am a Lutheran. I want to have the freedom to go places without
having to use the car. For example, to give classes at the Mohave
College there or whatever. In the same way you could ask me "Why do you
need to ride to Placerville?" which is only possible with an MTB and
hard on the bike. Answer: Because I want to.


AFAIK it is the only connection between Hurricane and Colorado
City. I would not want to live in a big city like St.George but
rather in Hurricane next door.

If you move to Hur-a-kin, you are in for some serious culture shock
(although not as much as Colorado City). Don't go looking for any
brew pubs or growler stations -- and don't expect any sympathy about
the lack of bike lanes. Once off the main drag and away from the
tourist traffic headed to Zion, life in small-town southern Utah is,
well, unique. Rent before you buy.


My main concern is the bicycle infrastructure. If it ain't there I ain't
comin'. Other than that there's breweries:

http://www.zionbrewery.com/

Not much farther than our local breweries here. The problem is the
roads. Green Valley Road out here now has wide enough shoulders and
sometimes bike lanes. Zion Park Road in Utah mostly does not. If there
is an alternate MTB route that would be perfectly ok no matter how rough
but I don't know that (yet). This is why I have a stainless steel growler.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

The cost of homes in St. George is high as is the property taxes.


My MTB buddy was just there on his motorcycle and he said that you can
get a decent home for $200k, just like what my own research showed.
However, one has to watch out that it is really a main residence, else
they sock it to you. Read the 12-13-2010 post here about a guy whose
taxes dropped way down by simply moving from San Diego to St.George:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/st-ge...ax-bill-2.html

There is much less union cronyism and probably also less corruption
which keeps costs down.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-06-22 12:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 7:38:17 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 13:45, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 1:08:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 11:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 9:59:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 09:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 7:38:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2016-06-21 07:30, wrote:

https://goo.gl/ZyQCtf


Yeah, it's almost paradise out here. There aren't many
places where you get to enjoy vistas like this on the
trail from Lotus to Folsom and they can only be reached
via MTB, hiking or some on horseback:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/...ronanTrail.JPG



Thinking about whether moving to the St.George area (Utah)
would make sense. A friend with similar ideas just
scoped that out last week and I'll get to ask him about
it on a ride this week. Their MTB trails are better but
AFAICT roads have little to no bicycle infrastructure
and I wouldn't like that.

Most roads have little to no bicycle infrastructure --
at least the roads in rural America. I don't know why you
think St. George would be any different. It's not the
Netherlands.


In our area (near Sacramento, CA) many roads do have a
bicycle infrastructure and this includes rural ones.
Whenever a road section is widened or restored from the
ground up they put in bike lanes. Must be some kind of law.
For example, I use this road a lot and since they provided
wide enough shoulders and bike lanes the number of cyclists
there has substantially increased, including longhaul
commuters:

https://goo.gl/maps/zL1zGuAvTwN2

This is also the road where, further down towards Folsom,
a cyclist was killed in the lane. Now there are bike lanes
at that four-lane stretch and she would still be alive had
they been in back then.

Unfortunately that sometimes leads to a row of orphaned
bike lanes but that is still better than nothing.

Long story short I prefer areas that are not a step back
WRT ease and safety of bicycling versus where we live now.
For me that's not just MTB trails but I also want to be
able to handle errands by bike like I do now. I prefer not
to have to ride in the lane a lot for that.


Dude, get a spine.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...y_limits_1.jpg






Piece of cake, that sort of road I'd take any day and I do that a lot
here. This, OTOH, is absolutely not cool:

https://goo.gl/maps/tDXgBjBivPn


Why would you ever be on UT-59 or go to Colorado City? Are you
FLDS?


No, I am a Lutheran. I want to have the freedom to go places
without having to use the car. For example, to give classes at the
Mohave College there or whatever. In the same way you could ask me
"Why do you need to ride to Placerville?" which is only possible
with an MTB and hard on the bike. Answer: Because I want to.

UT-59 is rideable. It is not a restricted, car-only road.
https://www.udot.utah.gov/main/ucono...00404201454221 It may
not be to your taste, but that's another matter.


It is most certainly not my taste. This is my taste, more or less
parallels Hwy 50 into the hills, rode it yesterday:

http://s31.photobucket.com/user/otbp...edium.jpg.html



AFAIK it is the only connection between Hurricane and Colorado
City. I would not want to live in a big city like St.George
but rather in Hurricane next door.

If you move to Hur-a-kin, you are in for some serious culture
shock (although not as much as Colorado City). Don't go looking
for any brew pubs or growler stations -- and don't expect any
sympathy about the lack of bike lanes. Once off the main drag
and away from the tourist traffic headed to Zion, life in
small-town southern Utah is, well, unique. Rent before you buy.


My main concern is the bicycle infrastructure. If it ain't there I
ain't comin'. Other than that there's breweries:

http://www.zionbrewery.com/

Not much farther than our local breweries here. The problem is the
roads. Green Valley Road out here now has wide enough shoulders
and sometimes bike lanes. Zion Park Road in Utah mostly does not.
If there is an alternate MTB route that would be perfectly ok no
matter how rough but I don't know that (yet). This is why I have a
stainless steel growler.

Really? It's quite a way from St. George and still a hop from
Hur-a-kin (my son makes fun of the local pronunciation -- that and
"Tooele.") Long way to ride for a beer, and you assume they can fill
growlers -- a wrong assumption for any beer over 4 percent ABV.
Above that limit, you have to purchase the beer "pre-packaged," viz.,
not in your own growler -- and must be beer made onsite.


They do fill growlers:

http://www.zionbrewery.com/zion-canyon-brewpub/


... That's my
understand, but I'll confirm it when I'm in SLC in August --


Each county and city can have their own laws as well so what you find in
SLC may not apply in St.George. Many such ordinances border on
meshugginah, as explained to me yesterday by a brewpub owner. I almost
could not believe what he told me. IMNSHO opinion we need smaller
government. Way smaller.


... getting
my ass kicked up a bunch of 5-6,000 foot climbs in 100 degree heat.


We went yesterday. Not 100F but only 98F or so, up and down on the MTB
trail with a friend and his brother from Oregon. Almost all Oregonians
who have visited so far are very skilled and fit when it comes to
mountain biking. The destination was, of course, a brewpub.

I tacked on another five miles when the guys were tired and sure enough
went OTB. A piece of wood was kicked up by the front tire, went into the
spokes, came to an abrupt halt at the fork and ... haven't crashed in
over a year so I guess my number has come up again.

Kind of tough to type when the fingertips are blue and hurt.


Time to start doping.

:-)


I've ridden on Zion Park Road and all through Zion, mostly. Beware of
the shuttle buses and not being able to ride through the Zion-Mt.
Carmel Tunnel. There are some tough grades, too. I didn't see any
bicycles with skeletons by the side of the road. No mountain lions.
You'll live. You might want to consider changing your name to "Elder
Joerg" if you relocate to any seriously small town in southern Utah.


If I became an elder at our church first and then move they might take
me :-)

Can I keep riding in T-shirt, jeans and sandals or would they make me
wear a white shirt and tie?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-06-22 12:23, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 9:59:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 09:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 7:38:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 07:30, wrote:

https://goo.gl/ZyQCtf


Yeah, it's almost paradise out here. There aren't many places
where you get to enjoy vistas like this on the trail from Lotus
to Folsom and they can only be reached via MTB, hiking or some
on horseback:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/...ronanTrail.JPG

Thinking about whether moving to the St.George area (Utah)
would make sense. A friend with similar ideas just scoped that
out last week and I'll get to ask him about it on a ride this
week. Their MTB trails are better but AFAICT roads have little
to no bicycle infrastructure and I wouldn't like that.

Most roads have little to no bicycle infrastructure -- at least
the roads in rural America. I don't know why you think St. George
would be any different. It's not the Netherlands.


In our area (near Sacramento, CA) many roads do have a bicycle
infrastructure and this includes rural ones. Whenever a road
section is widened or restored from the ground up they put in bike
lanes. Must be some kind of law. For example, I use this road a lot
and since they provided wide enough shoulders and bike lanes the
number of cyclists there has substantially increased, including
longhaul commuters:

The Federal government supplies funding for road work if they include
bicycle facilities. That's why they're showing up even in dumpy
little towns that you'd never expect.


Finally something the government did right.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 6/23/2016 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-22 12:23, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 9:59:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 09:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 7:38:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 07:30, wrote:

https://goo.gl/ZyQCtf


Yeah, it's almost paradise out here. There aren't many
places
where you get to enjoy vistas like this on the trail
from Lotus
to Folsom and they can only be reached via MTB, hiking
or some
on horseback:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/...ronanTrail.JPG

Thinking about whether moving to the St.George area (Utah)
would make sense. A friend with similar ideas just
scoped that
out last week and I'll get to ask him about it on a
ride this
week. Their MTB trails are better but AFAICT roads have
little
to no bicycle infrastructure and I wouldn't like that.

Most roads have little to no bicycle infrastructure --
at least
the roads in rural America. I don't know why you think
St. George
would be any different. It's not the Netherlands.


In our area (near Sacramento, CA) many roads do have a
bicycle
infrastructure and this includes rural ones. Whenever a road
section is widened or restored from the ground up they
put in bike
lanes. Must be some kind of law. For example, I use this
road a lot
and since they provided wide enough shoulders and bike
lanes the
number of cyclists there has substantially increased,
including
longhaul commuters:

The Federal government supplies funding for road work if
they include
bicycle facilities. That's why they're showing up even in
dumpy
little towns that you'd never expect.


Finally something the government did right.


If such a thing exists, I haven't seen it. I ride out of my
way to avoid kiddie paths.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2016-06-22 13:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2016 12:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-22 08:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2016 10:38 AM, Joerg wrote:


My main concern is the bicycle infrastructure. If it ain't there I
ain't
comin'.

Then, in my experience, you're missing almost all of the best bicycling
territory in the U.S.


Everyone has a different opinion about what "best" means. I have never
enjoyed and likely will never enjoy cycling on roads where there is the
constant din and smell of internal combustion engines. For me, a
combination of nice MTB trails and good cycling infrastructure is
"best". Our region comes very close to that ideal, with the exception of
a lack of bike paths and lanes in the immediate vicinity but 10mi east
that all changes for the better.

Not surprisingly the vast majority (almost all) cyclists I know think
the same way.

If your only choices are between trails (MTB or MUP) and roads with
constant traffic, perhaps you live in the wrong area.


No, because of those MTB trails and MUP I live in a good area. But it is
in a leftist state and, therefore, cost is very high. That makes this
area less attractive.


In the rural areas of the midwest, there are hundreds of small two-lane
roads, with alternative choices frequently closer than a mile apart. The
state highways among those will have some traffic, but even those are
often far quieter than your "constant din and smell."

Example: I led a 40 mile club ride Saturday despite being sick. Since
I wasn't feeling well, I re-routed from five miles on a very quiet but
hilly road to a flat, parallel state route. I'd estimate we got passed
by maybe 30 cars. Oh, and two big trucks, with both truckers waiting
patiently until there was room to pass in the opposing lane.

Most of the rest of the ride was on beautiful, small-scale roads,
including two that passed through the middle of farm yards. On some
roads, there might be one car passing us every three miles or so.

It's not all that way, of course; and I'm competent and comfortable on
busier roads. But I wander and seek out such quiet roads for recreation
rides, and there are literally hundreds in my riding territory.


We have quiet roads as well but not that many anymore. Mainly because
some developer bri ... ahm ... "convinced" the politicos that it's a
really good idea to add some 700 homes over yonder. Then you have
yuppies in their sports cars tearing down the formerly quiet rural road.

I prefer an area like where I live now, where there are lots of bike
paths (unfortunately not starting until you get 10mi out of town) and
good MTB trails (starting right in town). Some MTB trails can also be
used for utility rides.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 6/23/2016 10:48 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-22 13:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2016 12:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-22 08:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2016 10:38 AM, Joerg wrote:


My main concern is the bicycle infrastructure. If it ain't there I
ain't
comin'.

Then, in my experience, you're missing almost all of the best bicycling
territory in the U.S.


Everyone has a different opinion about what "best" means. I have never
enjoyed and likely will never enjoy cycling on roads where there is the
constant din and smell of internal combustion engines. For me, a
combination of nice MTB trails and good cycling infrastructure is
"best". Our region comes very close to that ideal, with the exception of
a lack of bike paths and lanes in the immediate vicinity but 10mi east
that all changes for the better.

Not surprisingly the vast majority (almost all) cyclists I know think
the same way.

If your only choices are between trails (MTB or MUP) and roads with
constant traffic, perhaps you live in the wrong area.


No, because of those MTB trails and MUP I live in a good area. But it is
in a leftist state and, therefore, cost is very high. That makes this
area less attractive.


In the rural areas of the midwest, there are hundreds of small two-lane
roads, with alternative choices frequently closer than a mile apart. The
state highways among those will have some traffic, but even those are
often far quieter than your "constant din and smell."

Example: I led a 40 mile club ride Saturday despite being sick. Since
I wasn't feeling well, I re-routed from five miles on a very quiet but
hilly road to a flat, parallel state route. I'd estimate we got passed
by maybe 30 cars. Oh, and two big trucks, with both truckers waiting
patiently until there was room to pass in the opposing lane.

Most of the rest of the ride was on beautiful, small-scale roads,
including two that passed through the middle of farm yards. On some
roads, there might be one car passing us every three miles or so.

It's not all that way, of course; and I'm competent and comfortable on
busier roads. But I wander and seek out such quiet roads for recreation
rides, and there are literally hundreds in my riding territory.


We have quiet roads as well but not that many anymore. Mainly because
some developer bri ... ahm ... "convinced" the politicos that it's a
really good idea to add some 700 homes over yonder. Then you have
yuppies in their sports cars tearing down the formerly quiet rural road.

I prefer an area like where I live now, where there are lots of bike
paths (unfortunately not starting until you get 10mi out of town) and
good MTB trails (starting right in town). Some MTB trails can also be
used for utility rides.

Sounds like you'll never be able to travel overnight using your bike. Sad.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2016-06-23 07:41, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/23/2016 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-22 12:23, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 9:59:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 09:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 7:38:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-21 07:30, wrote:

https://goo.gl/ZyQCtf


Yeah, it's almost paradise out here. There aren't many
places
where you get to enjoy vistas like this on the trail
from Lotus
to Folsom and they can only be reached via MTB, hiking
or some
on horseback:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/...ronanTrail.JPG

Thinking about whether moving to the St.George area (Utah)
would make sense. A friend with similar ideas just
scoped that
out last week and I'll get to ask him about it on a
ride this
week. Their MTB trails are better but AFAICT roads have
little
to no bicycle infrastructure and I wouldn't like that.

Most roads have little to no bicycle infrastructure --
at least
the roads in rural America. I don't know why you think
St. George
would be any different. It's not the Netherlands.


In our area (near Sacramento, CA) many roads do have a
bicycle
infrastructure and this includes rural ones. Whenever a road
section is widened or restored from the ground up they
put in bike
lanes. Must be some kind of law. For example, I use this
road a lot
and since they provided wide enough shoulders and bike
lanes the
number of cyclists there has substantially increased,
including
longhaul commuters:

The Federal government supplies funding for road work if
they include
bicycle facilities. That's why they're showing up even in
dumpy
little towns that you'd never expect.


Finally something the government did right.


If such a thing exists, I haven't seen it. I ride out of my way to avoid
kiddie paths.


This is not a kiddie path:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Bikelane1.JPG

That measuring stick is two meters long which is about 6ft. Why would
any cyclist avoid excellent infrastructure like that? It has resulted in
a nice increase in riders out here. Plus new bike shops like the one
where I bought my MTB.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-06-23 07:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2016 10:48 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-22 13:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2016 12:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-22 08:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2016 10:38 AM, Joerg wrote:


My main concern is the bicycle infrastructure. If it ain't there I
ain't
comin'.

Then, in my experience, you're missing almost all of the best
bicycling
territory in the U.S.


Everyone has a different opinion about what "best" means. I have never
enjoyed and likely will never enjoy cycling on roads where there is the
constant din and smell of internal combustion engines. For me, a
combination of nice MTB trails and good cycling infrastructure is
"best". Our region comes very close to that ideal, with the
exception of
a lack of bike paths and lanes in the immediate vicinity but 10mi east
that all changes for the better.

Not surprisingly the vast majority (almost all) cyclists I know think
the same way.

If your only choices are between trails (MTB or MUP) and roads with
constant traffic, perhaps you live in the wrong area.


No, because of those MTB trails and MUP I live in a good area. But it is
in a leftist state and, therefore, cost is very high. That makes this
area less attractive.


In the rural areas of the midwest, there are hundreds of small two-lane
roads, with alternative choices frequently closer than a mile apart. The
state highways among those will have some traffic, but even those are
often far quieter than your "constant din and smell."

Example: I led a 40 mile club ride Saturday despite being sick. Since
I wasn't feeling well, I re-routed from five miles on a very quiet but
hilly road to a flat, parallel state route. I'd estimate we got passed
by maybe 30 cars. Oh, and two big trucks, with both truckers waiting
patiently until there was room to pass in the opposing lane.

Most of the rest of the ride was on beautiful, small-scale roads,
including two that passed through the middle of farm yards. On some
roads, there might be one car passing us every three miles or so.

It's not all that way, of course; and I'm competent and comfortable on
busier roads. But I wander and seek out such quiet roads for recreation
rides, and there are literally hundreds in my riding territory.


We have quiet roads as well but not that many anymore. Mainly because
some developer bri ... ahm ... "convinced" the politicos that it's a
really good idea to add some 700 homes over yonder. Then you have
yuppies in their sports cars tearing down the formerly quiet rural road.

I prefer an area like where I live now, where there are lots of bike
paths (unfortunately not starting until you get 10mi out of town) and
good MTB trails (starting right in town). Some MTB trails can also be
used for utility rides.

Sounds like you'll never be able to travel overnight using your bike. Sad.


Huh? As you should know by now I have excellent powerful lighting on my
bikes. The next time I will travel at night will be ... tonight. And
yes, this time all via roads because unfortunately there ain't no
cycling facilities on that route. There definitely should be because I
am the only one riding there at night and others generally say it's a
suicide mission, thus they won't ride. Everyone except me will,
therefore, come by car. You can stick your head in the sand about it but
the fact remains that the vast majority of people will not ride without
cycling infrastructure. Not even at daytime.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 6/23/2016 11:09 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-23 07:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Sounds like you'll never be able to travel overnight using your bike.
Sad.


Huh? As you should know by now I have excellent powerful lighting on my
bikes. The next time I will travel at night will be ... tonight. And
yes, this time all via roads because unfortunately there ain't no
cycling facilities on that route. There definitely should be because I
am the only one riding there at night and others generally say it's a
suicide mission, thus they won't ride.

I was referring to traveling somewhere more than a day's ride away using
your bike. Bike touring. Riding several days for a vacation. Riding
to visit an old friend in a distant city. Exploring the country via
bicycle.

If a person limits themselves to trails, or even avoids any highway with
significant traffic, he can never get that experience.

Everyone except me will,
therefore, come by car. You can stick your head in the sand about it but
the fact remains that the vast majority of people will not ride without
cycling infrastructure. Not even at daytime.

The vast majority of people will not ride any significant distance no
matter what. MUPs attract a "drive to the bike path" crowd, who will
ride five miles up, then turn around and ride back.

This won't change with any realistic amount of bike infrastructure. In
fact, in America, it won't change without some catastrophic changes in
society.

But in the meantime, those like you yelling "The roads are too
dangerous!!! You MUST have bike lanes and paths to be safe!!!" are not
helping. Your false fear mongering dissuades bicycling here and now.


--
- Frank Krygowski