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#51
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Pseudo-enviromentalist Not Qualified To Make Any Conclusions.
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:29:11 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote: V for Vendicar wrote: "jazu" wrote You are qualified because you don't like bicycles. He likes bicycles. He just doesn't like to see bicycle tires damaging the wilderness. I don't blame him. Why are giant, easily panicked and dangerous beasts that leave large and deep depressions with their wrought iron shod feet and use the trail to deposit copious quantities of fecal matter acceptable? They are alive. Same reason elk, moose, and bison are allowed. Bicycles don't have rights. DUH! -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
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#52
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Pseudo-enviromentalist Not Qualified To Make Any Conclusions.
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane
wrote: On Jul 26, 2:16*pm, "V for Vendicar" om wrote: "jazu" wrote You are qualified because you don't like bicycles. * He likes bicycles. * He just doesn't like to see bicycle tires damaging the wilderness. * I don't blame him. Yes, while industries spew massive amounts of pollutants into the air and water, Including those that make mountain bikes and mountain bikers' SUVs and trucks. while coal burning power plants poison the planet with tons of mercury, while oil spills and fossil fuel development ravage our waterways and groundwater, while urban sprawl consumes and destroys vast amounts of wildlife habitat, Mike cries about mountain-bike tires. Why? Because there are plenty of people working on those other issues. MILLIONS. Because the other problems would take much more effort than just being a keyboard scientist. He choses to spend his time on a very minor "problem" MILLIONS of mountain bikers shredding trails every week is not "minor". Get real. because there is not much work in "reviewing the data" that someone else actually collected. It's the easy way to sleep at night, thinking you've accomplished something. In the mean time, the entire planet is going down the toilet while Michael J. Vandeman feeds his ego. How many lawsuits have you started to stop highway construction?You are nothing but hot air. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#53
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Pseudo-environmentalist Not Qualified To Make Any Conclusions.
Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:29:11 -0500, Tom Sherman wrote: V for Vendicar wrote: "jazu" wrote You are qualified because you don't like bicycles. He likes bicycles. He just doesn't like to see bicycle tires damaging the wilderness. I don't blame him. Why are giant, easily panicked and dangerous beasts that leave large and deep depressions with their wrought iron shod feet and use the trail to deposit copious quantities of fecal matter acceptable? They are alive. Same reason elk, moose, and bison are allowed. Bicycles don't have rights. DUH! When is the last time an elk, moose or bison was wearing wrought iron shoes? Why are unnaturally cleared trails provided for equestrians? Does not the trail building disturb the native ecosystem? Do not the horses carry humans that scare and stress the native fauna? Speaking of native fauna, the horse definitely does NOT qualify in North America. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia "People who had no mercy will find none." - Anon. |
#54
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Pseudo-enviromentalist Not Qualified To Make Any Conclusions.
On Jul 26, 10:07*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane wrote: On Jul 26, 2:16*pm, "V for Vendicar" om wrote: "jazu" wrote You are qualified because you don't like bicycles. * He likes bicycles. * He just doesn't like to see bicycle tires damaging the wilderness. * I don't blame him. Yes, while industries spew massive amounts of pollutants into the air and water, Including those that make mountain bikes and mountain bikers' SUVs and trucks. And those commercial jets you fly on so often. *while coal burning power plants poison the planet with tons of mercury, while oil spills and fossil fuel development ravage our waterways and groundwater, while urban sprawl consumes and destroys vast amounts of wildlife habitat, Mike cries about mountain-bike tires. Why? Because there are plenty of people working on those other issues. MILLIONS. I hope they are not as ineffective as you have been. *Because the other problems would take much more effort than just being a keyboard scientist. He choses to spend his time on a very minor "problem" MILLIONS of mountain bikers shredding trails every week is not "minor". Get real. In the grand scheme of things, yes, those thousands of mountain bikers are minor. *because there is not much work in "reviewing the data" that someone else actually collected. It's the easy way to sleep at night, thinking you've accomplished something. In the mean time, the entire planet is going down the toilet while Michael J. Vandeman feeds his ego. How many lawsuits have you started to stop highway construction?You are nothing but hot air. I don't advocate that, dummy. |
#55
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Pseudo-environmentalist Not Qualified To Make Any Conclusions.
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:12:39 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:29:11 -0500, Tom Sherman wrote: V for Vendicar wrote: "jazu" wrote You are qualified because you don't like bicycles. He likes bicycles. He just doesn't like to see bicycle tires damaging the wilderness. I don't blame him. Why are giant, easily panicked and dangerous beasts that leave large and deep depressions with their wrought iron shod feet and use the trail to deposit copious quantities of fecal matter acceptable? They are alive. Same reason elk, moose, and bison are allowed. Bicycles don't have rights. DUH! When is the last time an elk, moose or bison was wearing wrought iron shoes? I have never seen horse shoes on horses on trails. They are used only on pavement. There's no reason to use horse shoes on trails, just as there is no reason to allow bikes on trails. Why are unnaturally cleared trails provided for equestrians? Does not the trail building disturb the native ecosystem? Of course. Mountain bikers do that more than anyone else I know. Do not the horses carry humans that scare and stress the native fauna? Of course. But mountain bikers scare them more. Equestrians are extremely rare, compared to mountain bikers. Speaking of native fauna, the horse definitely does NOT qualify in North America. Sure it does. It evolved in North America. Mountain bikes aren't even alive. They have NO rights. Sorry to inject a little reality. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#56
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Pseudo-environmentalist Not Qualified To Make Any Conclusions.
Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:12:39 -0500, Tom Sherman wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:29:11 -0500, Tom Sherman wrote: V for Vendicar wrote: "jazu" wrote You are qualified because you don't like bicycles. He likes bicycles. He just doesn't like to see bicycle tires damaging the wilderness. I don't blame him. Why are giant, easily panicked and dangerous beasts that leave large and deep depressions with their wrought iron shod feet and use the trail to deposit copious quantities of fecal matter acceptable? They are alive. Same reason elk, moose, and bison are allowed. Bicycles don't have rights. DUH! When is the last time an elk, moose or bison was wearing wrought iron shoes? I have never seen horse shoes on horses on trails. They are used only on pavement. There's no reason to use horse shoes on trails, just as there is no reason to allow bikes on trails. Mikey needs to get out more, and see how torn up equestrian trails are compared to hiking, and yes cycling trails. Why are unnaturally cleared trails provided for equestrians? Does not the trail building disturb the native ecosystem? Of course. Mountain bikers do that more than anyone else I know. Nonsense. There are magnitudes more hiking trails than mountain biking trails. Do not the horses carry humans that scare and stress the native fauna? Of course. But mountain bikers scare them more. Equestrians are extremely rare, compared to mountain bikers. Yeah, because horse riding is an elitist activity of the upper middle class and upper classes. Normal people can not afford to keep a huge beast around for the occasional recreational ride. Speaking of native fauna, the horse definitely does NOT qualify in North America. Sure it does. It evolved in North America. Mountain bikes aren't even alive. They have NO rights. Sorry to inject a little reality. Not the domesticated horse by any stretch of the imagination. Horses are an invasion exotic species. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia "People who had no mercy will find none." - Anon. |
#57
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Pseudo-environmentalist Not Qualified To Make Any Conclusions.
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 06:13:15 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:12:39 -0500, Tom Sherman wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:29:11 -0500, Tom Sherman wrote: V for Vendicar wrote: "jazu" wrote You are qualified because you don't like bicycles. He likes bicycles. He just doesn't like to see bicycle tires damaging the wilderness. I don't blame him. Why are giant, easily panicked and dangerous beasts that leave large and deep depressions with their wrought iron shod feet and use the trail to deposit copious quantities of fecal matter acceptable? They are alive. Same reason elk, moose, and bison are allowed. Bicycles don't have rights. DUH! When is the last time an elk, moose or bison was wearing wrought iron shoes? I have never seen horse shoes on horses on trails. They are used only on pavement. There's no reason to use horse shoes on trails, just as there is no reason to allow bikes on trails. Mikey needs to get out more, and see how torn up equestrian trails are compared to hiking, and yes cycling trails. Try to stick to the subject. Your answers are always non-sequiturs. Why are unnaturally cleared trails provided for equestrians? Does not the trail building disturb the native ecosystem? Of course. Mountain bikers do that more than anyone else I know. Nonsense. There are magnitudes more hiking trails than mountain biking trails. Try to stick to the subject. Your answers are always non-sequiturs. I was talking about trail CONSTRUCTION. Do not the horses carry humans that scare and stress the native fauna? Of course. But mountain bikers scare them more. Equestrians are extremely rare, compared to mountain bikers. Yeah, because horse riding is an elitist activity of the upper middle class and upper classes. Normal people can not afford to keep a huge beast around for the occasional recreational ride. Making horses not much of a problem, compared to mountain bikes. Speaking of native fauna, the horse definitely does NOT qualify in North America. Sure it does. It evolved in North America. Mountain bikes aren't even alive. They have NO rights. Sorry to inject a little reality. Not the domesticated horse by any stretch of the imagination. Horses are an invasion exotic species. I guess English isn't your first language. My condolences. And biology isn't your long suit, either. Try to stick to things you know something about. Like jerking off. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#58
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Pseudo-environmentalist Not Qualified To Make Any Conclusions.
On Jul 27, 12:22*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
I ...Like jerking off. That would explain why you never were able to father any children. |
#59
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Pseudo-enviromentalist Not Qualified To Make Any Conclusions.
Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:52:29 GMT, "M. Halliwell" templetagteam@shawdotca wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:01:29 GMT, "M. Halliwell" templetagteam@shawdotca wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: I see you either never read the study, or didn't understand it. It has nothing to do with "being uncomfortable". The mountain bikers caused the elk to flee, and to flee FARTHER than either hikers or equestrians. I also reviewed the studies on physical impacts (erosion & plant damage), where mountain biking also did more harm than hiking. Mike, I've also observed animal behavior...elk and deer tend to flee from *anything* that is larger and fast moving. The larger and more fast moving, the greater the response...it is a typical flight response that they use for protection from predators. Put a sumo suit on and run through the woods and you'll get a similar response. I'm not denying the response, but rather the true impact of it. If the elk and deer realize a bike is not a predator, it will not generate the same response in the future. Your armchair speculation is no substitute for RESEARCH. Neither is yours... but for what it is worth, the flight response I am discussing is the basis for the Wisdom et al measurements and the trends they note are as expected from larger and faster moving objects. The hypothetical situation I put forward above, based on the Wisdom et al information any my own observation, should provide the stated outcome based on typical responses. So what?!!!! That has no bearing on their results, which still stand: mountain bikers have more negative effect on elk than either hikers or equestrians. They extract an energy and nutritional cost! That can be critical to survival, especially in a place where resources are scarce, as in the desert. Mike, you asked me to justify my "armchair speculation" so I did. Wisdom et al shows a higher elk and deer response to the movement of a mountain biker, which is larger and faster than a hiker and could be initially identified by prey animals as a predator. The trend continued with ATVs, which are larger and faster yet. As you have apparently accepted this, then it follows that when the mountain bike is identified as a non-predatory entity, the response (and hence effects on energy and nutritional costs) will lessen. Wisdom et al did a wonderful job of identifying the initial reaction, but did not address normalization to non-predators. You *may* hazard a guess of what Bambi is thinking (if you believe that Bambi has higher reasoning skills) but that is as far as it goes...when it comes to the assessment of physical impacts (after all, erosion is one of your favorite topics) you are simply out of your area of expertise. It's not rocket science, you dunce. If you are a qualified expert, show us your OWN assessment of the research. And be SPECIFIC! I know you CAN'T! I see you are afraid to answer that question! As I predicted.... Still waiting. Asked and answered, Mike, as I like you, do not have all the raw data to run an assessment on. The best either of us can do is a literature review. You've pretended to do yours and managed an opinion paper full of bias. You still haven't answered the question on how your degree in psychology qualifies you to comment on something out of your area of expertise. As you claim that the analytical methodologies are all biased, then apparently you have the answer to fixing them all....I anxiously await your publishing your findings and the correct methodologies. Please also provide your qualifications (other than a BA, MA and Ph.D. in Psychology) which qualify you to comment on erosion or soil mechanics. Mike, as I, like you, do not have all the raw data to run an assessment on, the best either of us can do is a literature review. You've pretended to do yours and managed an opinion paper full of bias. Why haven't YOU done one? Do you buy IMBA's propaganda? No, I don't accept anyone's papers at face value. I read through them, compare them to other works and judge for myself if the conclusions they present seem logical and, if using a model, their correlation seems reasonable to support their conclusions. And what if the LIE about their results? I guess you overlooked that.... Mike, I look for logical conclusions that follow the results and comparable research. I try to identify generalization and bias and use them to make my decision on the papers. You still haven't answered the question on how your degree in psychology qualifies you to comment on something out of your area of expertise. Yes, I did. Every science Ph.D. gives one research expertise. That's not what I'm asking..."learn to read." Your area of expertise is psychology...what qualifies you to talk engineering, agrology, wildlife biology or any of the other fields you seem to delve into? Study. the same thing that got me the Ph.D. (and M.A. and B.A.). Oh, so now you are claiming, because you have "studied" that you are an engineer, agrologist, forester, biologist and so forth. I'm sure the regulating bodies in California would love to hear that (don't proclaim it too loudly, Mike). As you claim that the analytical methodologies are all biased, then apparently you have the answer to fixing them all....I anxiously await your publishing your findings and the correct methodologies. I did in my paper. Did you READ it? Sheesh. Generalizations and bias do not make proof... "Everyone knows...", "Obviously...", "I have informally collected...", "why do we need research to prove the obvious" and so on and so forth. You do suggest the methodologies may have flaws, but seldom do you provide suggestions for better methodologies. Let's talk FACT. Certainly. Lets talk fact that the studies done to date say that for a fixed distance, a rider of a mountain bike has a similar effect as a hiker (damage per person per distance). Let's agree that the average hiker does not travel as far as the average mountain biker. However, trying to extrapolate the data for an individual to an entire group without taking into account the number of participants is an error. How many OTHER people are mountain biking or hiking is totally irrelevant to his impact. Bull...the effects of an activity on the environment of wildlife is directly tied to the type activity being performed, number of people carrying out the activity and amount of area being disturbed. By omitting the number of participants, you are artificially limiting the overall effects. BS. I proved that permitting mountain biking INCEASES the impacts or recreation. That's all we need to know. Mike, that's like saying you can have as many cars as you want (billions and billions at this point and growing) because the effects of an individual tractor-trailer truck are worse than the effects of a single car. The total effects from billions of automobiles are far worse than the effects of millions of tractor-trailer units. Until you look at the populations involved, you will not be able to identify which is having the greater total effect. and a lot of years of experience in the assessment of both natural and developed areas for human impacts and environmental health. I also work as part of a multi-disciplinary team that includes ecologists, biologist, engineers, geologists, hydrogeologists, foresters, agrologists, chemists and environmental scientists (at varying levels, but generally from M.Sc. to Ph.D.). What? Not going to take issue with this too? Other than getting thrown out of the Sierra Club, LIAR. My apologies, I didn't state that right. Exactly: you LIED. BS...prove I lied. Anyone can see you lied. Just look up a few lines. Prove intent, Mike...that is what makes a lie. No one can prove intent. But since you knew that fact, and still chose to state it incorrectly, proves that you are a LIAR. You wanted to deceive people. Tell the truth! Mike, you are making an assumption that does not prove intent and does not prove I lied. I didn't state it correctly..banning you from leadership and telling you not to present yourself as one of their representatives (after you have held such responsibility and represented them) can be looked at as getting thrown out (at least from the executive ranks)so you can't do any more harm, which was my intent. BS. You deliberately LIED. ALL mountain bikers (whom I have met) do that. Prove intent (you can't). Besides, by your own logic posted to this newsgroup, you're a mountain biker too. Heck, you're going to far as to claim you should be in the Mountain Biking Hall of Fame. I've provided my qualifications...you seem to have a very, very short memory. Perhaps this is indicative of a medical condition and you should see you doctor. I don't care to waste brain cells remembering useless information. Your failure to provide them when asked proves that you don't have anything significant. Mike, try "doing your own homework" (or even looking a couple responses up this thread). I provided my qualifications when originally asked in this thread. Stating I did not provide them is not true...I refrain from being repetitive with them, but to intentionally claim I didn't provide them after I did is a lie. Also, you did the postmortem on the snake? What does that mean? I see the mountain bike track across its back. DUH! Please provide your documentation. I'm assuming that your observation was that the snake was run over, but how did you prove that it was not run over after it died? You are AMAZINGLY stupid. Snakes don't just die in the trail. Why can't you admit that I'm right? Mike, for all I know, the snake was beaten to death by a hiker and a mountain bike ran over it after the fact. The shape of the injury (crushed by a mountain biking tire-shaped object) proves it was killed by a mountain biker. the biologists who examined it confirmed that. The same is true for another snake that was discovered by someone else. The biologist was the TOP herpetologist in California. So you have two examples. You are claiming statistical significance on 2two examples out of how big a population in the State? I'd love to see your statistical analysis on that. My opinion, based on a review of the works you present on your webpage and our discussions, Mike, is that you appear to have a pre-conceived notion of what the "truth" is. From our exchanges, you also seem unwilling to be open-minded and dismiss other factors and points of view out of hand. It would appear that no one will be able to change your mind about mountain biking, but it is equally evident that a lot of the audience you are trying to convince is of the same opinion as I am and won't be changing their views based on your information either. Perhaps it is time to take a break on the mountain biking front and channel your energies to a truly global issue, such as the deforestation and habitat loss in South America, that has a more significant impact on the planet. Mountain biking IS a truly global issue, and DOES destroy habitat in South America and everywhere else. Your desire to shut me up only proves that I'm on the right track. You are worried that other people will agree with me. You are right about that! Mike, an activity that occurs around the world may be global in scope but not in significance. As a self-proclaimed "expert" on mountain biking, please enlighten us as to how many acres are lost each year to the development of new trails around the world (not including the established and existing trail systems). Perhaps we can then put this into a truly global context against the 78 million acres of rainforest lost every year. Michael Halliwell |
#60
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Pseudo-enviromentalist Not Qualified To Make Any Conclusions.
Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane wrote: On Jul 26, 2:16 pm, "V for Vendicar" m wrote: "jazu" wrote You are qualified because you don't like bicycles. He likes bicycles. He just doesn't like to see bicycle tires damaging the wilderness. I don't blame him. Yes, while industries spew massive amounts of pollutants into the air and water, Including those that make mountain bikes and mountain bikers' SUVs and trucks. while coal burning power plants poison the planet with tons of mercury, while oil spills and fossil fuel development ravage our waterways and groundwater, while urban sprawl consumes and destroys vast amounts of wildlife habitat, Mike cries about mountain-bike tires. Why? Because there are plenty of people working on those other issues. MILLIONS. Because the other problems would take much more effort than just being a keyboard scientist. He choses to spend his time on a very minor "problem" MILLIONS of mountain bikers shredding trails every week is not "minor". Get real. But Mike, you have stated that the population is not important! You're contradicting yourself. Michael Halliwell |
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