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Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009



 
 
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  #1001  
Old December 8th 10, 05:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
RobertH
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Posts: 342
Default Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On Dec 7, 7:35 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°

How does defensive driving apply? The only similar situation would be
on a low-powered scooter that could not keep pace with other motorized
traffic.


False. When you're simply cruising down the road in your vehicle, the
principles of defensive driving apply, whether you're being passed or
not, because you have to be ready for encroachment from the wings,
watch the road surface, etc. While you're being passed these
principles of defensive driving are even more important.. Furthermore,
when you're being passed, in any vehicle, the principles of defensive
driving should be applied to your relationship with that anonymous
driver to the extent that it is practicable to apply those principles.
Obviously in passing situations the operator of the vehicle being
passed must rely at least somewhat on the faculties of the passing
driver.
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  #1002  
Old December 8th 10, 05:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane Hébert
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Posts: 384
Default Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On 12/8/2010 11:26 AM, RobertH wrote:
On Dec 7, 7:35 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°

How does defensive driving apply? The only similar situation would be
on a low-powered scooter that could not keep pace with other motorized
traffic.


False. When you're simply cruising down the road in your vehicle, the
principles of defensive driving apply, whether you're being passed or
not, because you have to be ready for encroachment from the wings,
watch the road surface, etc. While you're being passed these
principles of defensive driving are even more important.. Furthermore,
when you're being passed, in any vehicle, the principles of defensive
driving should be applied to your relationship with that anonymous
driver to the extent that it is practicable to apply those principles.
Obviously in passing situations the operator of the vehicle being
passed must rely at least somewhat on the faculties of the passing
driver.


Right. Here's a link that has some of the basic principles:
http://www.allsands.com/howto/defens...vin_xwv_gn.htm

Most of the suggestions make sense to me but particularly relevant to
this thread a

5. Anticipate the mistakes or unsafe maneuvers of the other drivers.
Notice that it doesn't say "unless you are controlling the lane"

and
16. If a tailgater is following you, move to another lane if possible or
pull to the side of the road and let the tailgater pass you.

Notice that it doesn't say to stay in the center of the road and
maintain your right to be there. Nor does it say that you will be
a cowardly, subservient wimp for getting out of the way of the guy
behind you driving dangerously.

  #1003  
Old December 8th 10, 05:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Dan O
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Posts: 6,098
Default Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On Dec 8, 6:28 am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/8/2010 12:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 7, 8:21 pm, wrote:
Frank writes:


Then you also talked about bailing out of the road entirely and riding
the sidewalk. Did I get that wrong?


Yes, you got that wrong. I said something to the effect that I would be
looking beyond the road and taking account of *all* my options. But since
you now seem to be adding a sidewalk to your scenario, it's a considerable
option.


That's what I thought. So we put you down as a sidewalk cyclist.


What don't you understand about "taking account of all my options?"
And why do you ignore the fact that he's talking about what he would
do when the truck wasn't stopping?

Only an idiot sits in the middle of the road pedaling at 20-30k with
a truck coming up behind them at speed.


Just so you know - I am... uh... "unorthodox" :-), shall we say, in my
approach to bicycling as transportation. I imagine I'm the
irredeemable heathen up river. It's well documented.

Oh, also, I don't call myself a "cyclist"; "cycling" is something my
washing machine does. I Ride Bike :-)

So anyway I'm not just talking about if the truck is coming to mow me
down. Even if he sees me and slows, I don't like the circumstances
(packed traffic lane to my left, curb to my right, more traffic being
held up behind - I am very apt to bail one way or another in that
situation anyway. There are always better routes - maybe just a shot
away through the gap over there by the bushes at 7-Eleven.

Depends on an infinity of constantly changing circumstances and my
fickle whims. I can get down with rush hour traffic, but revel in the
ability to go so many, many ways that the cars and trucks simply
cannot and get away - quite the opposite approach, as I see it, to
"vehicular cycling". It's a rush :-)

I thought that you said you studied defensive driving?


While it's great to benefit from the experience of others, there's
only one way to really learn what it takes to survive. Frank seems to
think that because I might not ride "properly", I must be ignorant and
dense as his poor imaginary buddy Fred, but more incorrigible, I
suppose. I know stuff, though (just let me know if you need any help
with more "positions" there, Frank ;-), and like anyone, learn more
every day.

Although I'm very nice to them, I suppose even those tenacious people
at the door with the booklets eventually figure I'm not worth the
effort, too.

Just so you know :-)
  #1004  
Old December 8th 10, 05:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Dan O
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Posts: 6,098
Default Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On Dec 8, 8:26 am, RobertH wrote:
On Dec 7, 7:35 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°

How does defensive driving apply? The only similar situation would be
on a low-powered scooter that could not keep pace with other motorized
traffic.


False. When you're simply cruising down the road in your vehicle, the
principles of defensive driving apply, whether you're being passed or
not, because you have to be ready for encroachment from the wings,
watch the road surface, etc. While you're being passed these
principles of defensive driving are even more important.. Furthermore,
when you're being passed, in any vehicle, the principles of defensive
driving should be applied to your relationship with that anonymous
driver to the extent that it is practicable to apply those principles.
Obviously in passing situations the operator of the vehicle being
passed must rely at least somewhat on the faculties of the passing
driver.


You have to count on it. It doesn't matter what line you take.

In town, I just try to keep pace+ or keep out of the way somewhere.
Out in the countryside - where most of my miles are - there's no
keeping pace with cars, so as soon as I hear any behind, I start
scoping out (got it right this time :-) the right edge and beyond and
finding a line over that way.
  #1005  
Old December 8th 10, 06:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane Hébert
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Posts: 384
Default Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On 12/8/2010 11:36 AM, Dan O wrote:
snip

So anyway I'm not just talking about if the truck is coming to mow me
down. Even if he sees me and slows, I don't like the circumstances
(packed traffic lane to my left, curb to my right, more traffic being
held up behind - I am very apt to bail one way or another in that
situation anyway. There are always better routes - maybe just a shot
away through the gap over there by the bushes at 7-Eleven.


If I'm on a road like he described, I'm probably in the lane unless
it gets unsafe IMO. I said that I'd do like you described if I
thought the truck didn't see me.

Depends on an infinity of constantly changing circumstances and my
fickle whims. I can get down with rush hour traffic, but revel in the
ability to go so many, many ways that the cars and trucks simply
cannot and get away - quite the opposite approach, as I see it, to
"vehicular cycling". It's a rush :-)


Like I've said countless times here, I definitely prefer to NOT ride
with cars. When I'm on my weekend rides, I look for routes without much
traffic. Even some with bike paths paralleling the road. Seems like
more fun going down the mountain at 60k in a lane without cars.

But when I commute to work I have little choice. And when I do ride
with cars, what I will do in any given circumstance depends. As you
say, there are many and they change.


I thought that you said you studied defensive driving?


While it's great to benefit from the experience of others, there's
only one way to really learn what it takes to survive. Frank seems to
think that because I might not ride "properly", I must be ignorant and
dense as his poor imaginary buddy Fred, but more incorrigible, I
suppose. I know stuff, though (just let me know if you need any help
with more "positions" there, Frank ;-), and like anyone, learn more
every day.


IMO you should ride anyway that you like. I would be the last one to
to tell anyone how to ride their bicycle.

I would advise defensive driving and some respect to the ones that you
share the road with. If you choose not to, it's up to you.

Other than that, enjoy riding your bike.

Although I'm very nice to them, I suppose even those tenacious people
at the door with the booklets eventually figure I'm not worth the
effort, too.

Just so you know :-)


No problem.
  #1006  
Old December 8th 10, 06:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On Dec 8, 12:06*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:

Like I've said countless times here, I definitely prefer to NOT ride
with cars. *When I'm on my weekend rides, I look for routes without much
traffic. *Even some with bike paths paralleling the road. *Seems like
more fun going down the mountain at 60k in a lane without cars.

But when I commute to work I have little choice. *And when I do ride
with cars, what I will do in any given circumstance depends.


So are you, too, one of those guys who frequently ride the sidewalks
because the road makes them nervous?

- Frank Krygowski
  #1007  
Old December 8th 10, 06:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default OT - Medical Costs

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Dec 7, 4:27 pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article ,
T m Sherm n _ " wrote:

On 12/6/2010 11:04 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
In ,
Peter wrote:
[...]
Medicine, in the US, via a number of mechanisms, is pretty much
a cartel.
Bull****. But you have to stop mixing things up to be able to
understand that.
The financing of medical care in the US is a cartel.

You'd have to prove collusion between insurance companies to prevent
competition or inflate prices to demonstrate that health care finance is
a cartel. It may very well be, and if so it is one of many (along with
the oil industry, the cell phone industry, the music industry, the movie
industry, the...). Drug companies, OTOH, operate as monopolies rather
than as cartels.


Insurance policies and premiums are approved by state regulators.
Premiums are set based on actuarial data, and annual increases must be
approved. Insurance companies are treated like regulated utilities and
not cartels in the sense that they are competitors engaged in illegal
price fixing or other monopoly-like activity. The problem is that
there are too few insurers competing for business, so there is no real
choice for consumers.

Patent rights may give drug companies "monopolies" on certain drugs in
the same way that Shimano has a monopoly on Di2, but the drug
companies are not "monopolies." Since we are talking about multiple
competitors, it would have to be a trust or a cartel in any event.

The problem is that market forces are very, very weak in the health
care industry. The capitalist model does not work well. I am pushing
for a complete overhaul: socialized voo-doo. -- Jay Beattie.


Here's your medical supplier of the futu
http://www.dayuvoodoodolls.com/

Stick 2 pins in it and report through our online utility
(don't try to call me; we don't take calls now.)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #1008  
Old December 8th 10, 06:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On Dec 8, 11:26*am, RobertH wrote:
On Dec 7, 7:35 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°

How does defensive driving apply? *The only similar situation would be
on a low-powered scooter that could not keep pace with other motorized
traffic.


False. When you're simply cruising down the road in your vehicle, the
principles of defensive driving apply, whether you're being passed or
not, because you have to be ready for encroachment from the wings,
watch the road surface, etc. While you're being passed these
principles of defensive driving are even more important.. Furthermore,
when you're being passed, in any vehicle, the principles of defensive
driving should be applied to your relationship with that anonymous
driver to the extent that it is practicable to apply those principles.
Obviously in passing situations the operator of the vehicle being
passed must rely at least somewhat on the faculties of the passing
driver.


So, Robert: Of course, I know you'd be ever alert, well prepared,
extremely skillful and always taking responsibility for your own
safety, etc.

But in a 10 foot lane, curb at the right, with an 8.5 foot truck
behind you, where exactly would you ride?

- Frank Krygowski
  #1009  
Old December 8th 10, 06:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On Dec 8, 11:10*am, RobertH wrote:
On Dec 7, 10:37 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I don't ride in door zones, period. *If there are parked cars, I'm a
good six feet away from them. *Yes, sometimes that puts me at the left
side of the lane. *This isn't difficult.


But what if there are no parked cars. Why not ride further left?
Wouldn't that be more effective?


It can be. Sometimes I do. "Down the middle" doesn't mean anybody's
used a tape measure.

So Robert, where would you ride?

- Frank Krygowski
  #1010  
Old December 8th 10, 07:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Dan O
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Posts: 6,098
Default Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On Dec 8, 9:27 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 8, 12:06 pm, Duane Hébert wrote:



Like I've said countless times here, I definitely prefer to NOT ride
with cars. When I'm on my weekend rides, I look for routes without much
traffic. Even some with bike paths paralleling the road. Seems like
more fun going down the mountain at 60k in a lane without cars.


But when I commute to work I have little choice. And when I do ride
with cars, what I will do in any given circumstance depends.


So are you, too, one of those guys who frequently ride the sidewalks
because the road makes them nervous?


I just got back from the store. On the way there, pretty much smack
dab down the middle no hands kind of weaving a lot around puddles,
wheeljied clear across main really nice, rolled up the driveway, where
a little diagonal sidewalk cuts between a big tree and a flower bed
made of concrete blocks. Wet leaves on the sidewalk, taking care not
to cut it too hard there on the slick tires, over shot a little and
wound with both wheels slipping in bare mud of the tree's root crown.
Wheee!


 




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