Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On Dec 6, 10:43*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 6, 11:22*pm, DirtRoadie wrote:
It's not dangerous for me, because I do control the situation by
controlling the lane.

So is it dangerous before you do this or if you do not do this? If not
what is the significance of your actions? Simple ritual? What do you
think you are "controlling" if not the danger?

I think it's dangerous for a cyclist to ride the road's edge so as to
not displease the trucker. *
OK, there's another acknowledged element of danger. I do wonder,
though, how you know what the trucker is thinking and how you assess
his emotional or mental state, i.e. whether he is displeased,
pleased, drunk, sober, late, distracted, incompetent or any of a
number of other possibilities.

It's unacceptably dangerous to imply to
the trucker (or any motorist) that he's welcome to pass you with only
tiny clearance.

Again I wonder how you "suggest" anything regarding what YOU think is
acceptable passing clearance without a sign on your back saying "Tiny
Clearance is OK." The driver is going to do what the driver is going
to do. In your hypothetical there's no room to pass anyhow. If the
driver tries to pass it's likely going to be a problem ( i.e.
dangerous) no matter what YOU do.

There is no room for the truck to pass within the lane in any case.
Why are you making a big deal of it? Don't you feel adequately safe?

I feel extremely safe handling it the way I do.
Feel? FEEL? Frank, Frank, Frank, you can't gauge these things by
FEEL.
But why must it be "handled?" Isn't cycling inherently NOT dangerous?
That's what you've been telling us. The fact that you have to "handle"
it tells us you are fearful of some possibility.

*I'm making a big deal
of it because Duane mocked the fact that I [_think_] control the trucker's
behavior.

Duane, shame on you! Were you mocking Frank? Frank is an "expert,"
just ask him. He can control everything.

So DR, what _do_ you do in that situation? *10 foot lane, 8.5 foot
truck. *Do you suddenly bail to ride the sidewalk, or do you bump
along in the gutter, or do you control the lane?*
- Frank "I don't know the meaning of danger" Krygowski

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma -the three option
variation

Frank I suspect I and most others here are a lot more flexible than
you. I do what needs to be done under any particular set of
circumstances and don't get too caught up in idyllic assumptions
regarding what my "rights" are. You, on the other hand, never seem to
be able to grasp the big picture.

DR

On 12/7/2010 11:42 AM, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:43 pm, Frank wrote:
On Dec 6, 11:22 pm, wrote:

I'm making a big deal
of it because Duane mocked the fact that I [_think_] control the trucker's
behavior.

Duane, shame on you! Were you mocking Frank? Frank is an "expert,"
just ask him. He can control everything.

Apparently everything except disagreement. Sorry, I mean
mocking. What's this a Monty Python schtick?

So DR, what _do_ you do in that situation? 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot
truck. Do you suddenly bail to ride the sidewalk, or do you bump
along in the gutter, or do you control the lane?*
- Frank "I don't know the meaning of danger" Krygowski

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma -the three option
variation

Frank I suspect I and most others here are a lot more flexible than
you. I do what needs to be done under any particular set of
circumstances and don't get too caught up in idyllic assumptions
regarding what my "rights" are. You, on the other hand, never seem to
be able to grasp the big picture.

What I'm saying.

On Dec 7, 7:15*am, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message

...
On Dec 6, 6:17 pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:

I would make myself as visible as possible and try to verify that
he sees me. If so, I would stay in the center of the lane. If
not, and he keeps coming I would do the same thing that Dan would
do.
So you really bail out and try to jump to the sidewalk, eh? *Wow. *Do
you do this when he's a block back? *Seems you can't delay until he's
50 feet behind, else you may not be able to bail out in time. *So much
for a right to the road!

Again, you can't deal with my answer so you make up one and
ridicule me for that.

Wait! You said you would do what Dan does. Dan said he'd jump to the
sidewalk. Did you mean something different? Make yourself clear!

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 7, 7:31*am, Peter Cole wrote:
On 12/6/2010 9:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Of course, there aren't _always_ trucks waiting to pass me. *There are
frequently cars, though, and it makes little difference; a ten foot
lane is far too narrow to be safely shared.

Somebody needs to tell that to the cops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHNd_...eature=related

Forget about the drivers, they'll never get it. They don't want to.

Well, I'm not ready to give up on education for any group - cops,
motorists, or cyclists.

FWIW, it's not easy to get cops educated. One of my best cycling
friends is on the board of a police academy. We tried to get just a
bit on bicyclists rights into their curriculum, but it was rejected.
The response was "We can't fit that in; there's far too much stuff
we're already mandated to cover."

And I've noticed in our own area (where each suburb has its own police
force) that some cops are better than others. My village and the
surrounding township has a police chief and cops who are well aware of
our rights to the road, perhaps because some township cops have been
cycling buddies of mine. In the township to the south, the police
chief is ex-president of our bike club. But in another adjoining
township, two members of our club were told over a patrol car
loudspeaker to "Get on the sidewalk!" (To their credit, they yelled
"NO!" and the cop did not hassle them. In fact - no kidding - he
turned into the Dunkin' Donuts shop for his break!)

But as I've said, education regarding cycling is a strategy that's
gotten very little trial. There are lots of media that could be used
effectively, but aren't being used at all.

- Frank Krygowski

On 12/7/2010 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 7, 7:15 am, "Duane wrote:
"Frank wrote in message

...
On Dec 6, 6:17 pm, "Duane wrote:

I would make myself as visible as possible and try to verify that
he sees me. If so, I would stay in the center of the lane. If
not, and he keeps coming I would do the same thing that Dan would
do.
So you really bail out and try to jump to the sidewalk, eh? Wow. Do
you do this when he's a block back? Seems you can't delay until he's
50 feet behind, else you may not be able to bail out in time. So much
for a right to the road!

Again, you can't deal with my answer so you make up one and
ridicule me for that.

Wait! You said you would do what Dan does. Dan said he'd jump to the
sidewalk. Did you mean something different? Make yourself clear!

I said I would stay where I was unless the truck didn't see me
or wasn't stopping and THEN, IN THAT CASE, I would do what Dan
said. Then you did your usual redirection about whether I would see
him from 50 feet, blah blah blah. As if I couldn't tell that he wasn't
going to stop. Or as if this could never happen.

My point is that your idea of control is based on the truck driver
allowing you there. Most of the time, normal human beings are going
to do that as long as they see you and are capable of it - no mechanical
problems, slippery conditions etc. There is always the possibility that
is not the case. Not considering that will
get someone killed.

On Dec 7, 9:09*am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/6/2010 9:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Dec 6, 8:32 pm, Dan *wrote:
On Dec 6, 1:47 pm, Frank *wrote:

On Dec 6, 3:16 pm, Duane H *wrote:

On 12/6/2010 2:56 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:

Dan * *considered Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:22:30 -0800
(PST) the perfect time to write:

On Dec 6, 7:58 am, Frank * *wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:36 am, Duane H * *wrote:

What I like is the idea that when a bicycle is in front
of a truck, the cyclist is controlling the truck.

The driver is controlling the truck and hopefully he's paying attention,
he sees the cyclist and the truck doesn't have any mechanical issues.

If you want to be pedantic, when the cyclist is properly in front of
the truck in a lane too narrow for safe passing, he is controlling the
use of the lane.

Sure, but the point is your tendency to think you know what everybody
else should be doing.

So Duane, when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's
8' 6" wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

Depends on what's ahead, first of all. *Then depends on if the audible
tells me they've seen me. *Then, depends on the shoulder. *Then, I go
as far right as the conditions allow, brace for the crosswind, and
hang on.

If you really think you're safer trying to ride in the 18" gap left by
the truck trying to pass in the same lane than by staying wide and
demonstrating to the truck driver that you are well aware that there
is insufficient space to pass in-lane, that's entirely your
perogative.
I certainly wouldn't recommend it though, and I don't know of any
recognised training scheme for cyclists that does.

Sounds like he's only saying he'd do that if the truck didn't see him
and he couldn't take the shoulder. *What would you do if the truck
wasn't slowing for you? *Stay there and control the lane?

No shoulder, Duane. *A city street with a curb at the right. *Total
space available is 10 feet, no more.

No more? *What is this, like an alley?

You can visualize a two lane or
a four lane street, I don't care.

Oh. *Then why only ten feet, no more? *Is it heavy traffic right up to
the edge of your lane? *Why would I go that way in the first place?

So when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's 8' 6"
wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

Well, okay - assuming I was idiotic or unlucky enough to find myself
in this very specific situation - I would be scoping put beyond the
curb and looking for cuts or getting ready to hop it, unless I could
just outrun him, as is often the case in town where they have curbs
and heavy traffic and all that. *It's moments like this that separate
the ninjas from the fuddy-duddies :-)

This isn't uncommon, at least in my experience.

Really? *Only ten feet available, no more, and a truck driver who's
going to shoot the gap if you don't direct traffic? *Happens to you
all the time?

On my commute to and from work, I'd say all of the final mile is
exactly like that. *There are many stretches on the other six miles
that are like that as well. *My residential street, although it has no
curbs, is even narrower, totaling 18 feet IIRC.

Of course, there aren't _always_ trucks waiting to pass me. *There are
frequently cars, though, and it makes little difference; a ten foot
lane is far too narrow to be safely shared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adTpGj2MFec

The truck in this case slowed appreciably when coming up
to the cyclist (whether for the cyclist or for the turn
doesn't really matter) so where's the example where one
didn't? *

I don't have an example of one where the truck didn't slow for a
cyclist directly in front. In my experience, they always slow down.
And while I admit it must happen - rarely - it's not likely to happen
to you or any other rider in several hundred lifetimes.

How about an example of a truck tailgaiting the cyclist? *

I've occasionally - rarely - had vehicles closer behind me than I
would really like. My usual reaction has been to turn around, look at
their license plates and mouth the plate number out loud. Once on the
tandem, I had my wife do that from the stoker seat. Seemed to work
pretty well each time. There really are ways to control the behavior
of motorists.

What about one of a van between the cyclist and
the truck, blocking the truck's view of the cyclist, who
then turns as the truck is accelerating?

???

Are you really pretending this is a cause of a significant number of
crashes? In fact, do you have even one truck-bike or car-bike crash
caused by that situation?

You're showing so much creative effort going into "proving" that
riding a bike is really, really dangerous! But because you can
imagine some way in which a bicyclist might possibly be hurt, that
does not mean that getting hurt that way is even remotely likely.

There's no need for such obsession with "danger." Just ride properly,
pay attention to the road surface, plan ahead for traffic situations,
use lights at night, and you'll do fine. Really. No matter what you
think, it's just not that bad out there!

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 7, 9:12*am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/6/2010 10:05 PM, T m Sherm n _ wrote:



On 12/6/2010 8:43 PM, James Steward wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

Of course, there aren't _always_ trucks waiting to pass me. There are
frequently cars, though, and it makes little difference; a ten foot
lane is far too narrow to be safely shared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adTpGj2MFec

I really am amazed to find so much fear in this group.

- Frank Krygowski

You and Tom Sherman will like this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GNEU5cil_E&NR=1

I would have been tempted to ram the car with my large chain ring.

I would have followed them into the drive and gave them some
grief.

Agreed. In fact, when I saw a driver do something similar to some
other club members on a ride, that's exactly what I did.

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 7, 9:19*am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/6/2010 9:57 PM, James wrote:


I assume it's illegal to overtake over double lines?

In Quebec, cars must maintain 1.5 meters from a bicycle. *They can
cross double yellow to pass as long as it's to maintain the
distance from a bike.

A couple years ago in Ohio, we got it specifically written into law
that motorists can cross those lines, when safe, to pass any vehicle
traveling less than half the speed limit. Really, it was just
codifying what most motorists - including cops, in my experience -
already do.

Of course, if the bike is in the center of the lane they can't pass. *

They can pass in the same way they'd pass an Amish buggy, a post
office truck stopping at roadside mailboxes, a street sweeper, a heavy
truck grinding slowly up a steep hill, and so on. Pass when it's
clear. Wait if it's not.

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 7, 9:53*am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/7/2010 11:42 AM, DirtRoadie wrote:

Duane, shame on you! *Were you mocking Frank? *Frank is an "expert,"
just ask him. He can control everything.

Apparently everything except disagreement. *Sorry, I mean
mocking. *What's this a Monty Python schtick?

I think Frank is trying to bolster his "straw" resume so he can seek
gainful employment in both "argument" AND "abuse." He's tired of
arguing in his spare time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

DR

On Dec 6, 7:55*pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:

Unless I want to go well out of my way, I often ride across a freeway
overpass with no shoulder. *Bailing is not an option, unless falling ~25
feet onto a freeway with vehicles moving at 100-120 kph is considered an
option.

So are you suggesting there IS a choice or there is NOT a choice?
Sounds like you are saying the latter.
In which case, the situation is not something YOU control.

DR