Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?

On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 12:42:23 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
wrote:

On Jan 6, 6:42*am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 1/5/2011 10:24 PM, aka Andr s Muro wrote:



On Jan 5, 8:40 pm, *wrote:
[...]
Jobst is a fraud. *He says spokes were tied together to prevent
entanglement. *Here is the absolute proof that the tied and soldered
wheel was the original tangent spoked wheel.

* A tied and soldered wheel constructed in this manner far beats any
method described by JB in terms of load capacity, tracking, general
stability, avoidance of buckling (rather smelly things), specifically
lateral stability (torsional as Rudge describes it), climbing and
sprinting efficiency.

The interlaced spoke wheel came lalter as an economy measure with the
claim that it was as good as a tied and soldered wheel. *It never was
and still isn't. *It remains a production method for cheap bicycles
where a wheel can be built in about 5 minutes. *In UK, the tied and
soldered wheel still lived on as racing and heavy duty touring
equipment where requested by wheelbuilders who had the skill. *Mostly
this had been long forgotton by about 1990, new shop owners
uninterested in aquiring the skills to mark them above the rest. *Many
takeovers from the old mechanics failed and the businesses folded
within two years, the knowledge just was not there to sustain the
business.

the skill to tie and solder wheels? what skill? To wrap the crosses
with solder and you heat up. Why do that? Its a waste of time if a
properly built wheel will last you forever. There are thousands of
heavy duty tourists, cycle cross racers, pro racers, track sprinters,
kerin racers and pro cyclists that put a hell of abuse on their wheels
and yet they do great. If applying and melting some solder around the
spokes would strengthen the wheels, everyone would do it. Fact is,
Regular built wheels are pretty good. and plenty strong.

Remember that Trevor lives in an alternate Universe.

Spokes are *tied* with bee keeper's wire [1], then soldered (assuming
one believes in the Myth & Lore .)

T&S is performed on non-interlaced spokes.
Specifically, the binding wire is soldered to the spokes so that there
is no sliding of the spokes. The thickening of the junction of the
spokes also reduces bending of the spokes, which takes place due to
tension differential. With 28 and more spokes, the T&S procedure is
performed in two places. The second binding, nearest the hub, ensures
the best exit angle for the inner spokes meaning the load is taken
upon the spoke elbow rather than the spoke head.


[1] E.g.
http://www.cyclingcloseouts.com/Products/DT-Swiss-ProLine-Beekeepers-....

--
T m Sherm n - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.


Disregarding the long running argument, exactly how does one solder
stainless spokes? Do you use silver solder or some other type of
special solder since common lead-tin solder doesn't seem to adhere
well to stainless. Does it? Or is the technique to wrap with copper
wire and simply coat the copper with lead-tin solder ignoring the
non-adhesion to the stainless spokes?
Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

-snip wrapped&soldered spokes-

J. D. Slocomb wrote:
Disregarding the long running argument, exactly how does one solder
stainless spokes? Do you use silver solder or some other type of
special solder since common lead-tin solder doesn't seem to adhere
well to stainless. Does it? Or is the technique to wrap with copper
wire and simply coat the copper with lead-tin solder ignoring the
non-adhesion to the stainless spokes?


The solder is merely to keep the wire lashing from coming
undone.

A great reason to do that is for vintage restorations.

Another reason hasn't yet appeared despite 100 years+ of
riders seeking it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Jan 7, 11:54*pm, J. D. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 12:42:23 -0800 (PST), thirty-six



wrote:
On Jan 6, 6:42*am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 1/5/2011 10:24 PM, aka Andr s Muro wrote:

On Jan 5, 8:40 pm, *wrote:
[...]
Jobst is a fraud. *He says spokes were tied together to prevent
entanglement. *Here is the absolute proof that the tied and soldered
wheel was the original tangent spoked wheel.

* A tied and soldered wheel constructed in this manner far beats any
method described by JB in terms of load capacity, tracking, general
stability, avoidance of buckling (rather smelly things), specifically
lateral stability (torsional as Rudge describes it), climbing and
sprinting efficiency.

The interlaced spoke wheel came lalter as an economy measure with the
claim that it was as good as a tied and soldered wheel. *It never was
and still isn't. *It remains a production method for cheap bicycles
where a wheel can be built in about 5 minutes. *In UK, the tied and
soldered wheel still lived on as racing and heavy duty touring
equipment where requested by wheelbuilders who had the skill. *Mostly
this had been long forgotton by about 1990, new shop owners
uninterested in aquiring the skills to mark them above the rest. *Many
takeovers from the old mechanics failed and the businesses folded
within two years, the knowledge just was not there to sustain the
business.

the skill to tie and solder wheels? what skill? To wrap the crosses
with solder and you heat up. Why do that? Its a waste of time if a
properly built wheel will last you forever. There are thousands of
heavy duty tourists, cycle cross racers, pro racers, track sprinters,
kerin racers and pro cyclists that put a hell of abuse on their wheels
and yet they do great. If applying and melting some solder around the
spokes would strengthen the wheels, everyone would do it. Fact is,
Regular built wheels are pretty good. and plenty strong.

Remember that Trevor lives in an alternate Universe.

Spokes are *tied* with bee keeper's wire [1], then soldered (assuming
one believes in the Myth & Lore .)

T&S is performed on non-interlaced spokes.
Specifically, the binding wire is soldered to the spokes so that there
is no sliding of the spokes. *The thickening of the junction of the
spokes also reduces bending of the spokes, which takes place due to
tension differential. With 28 and more spokes, the T&S procedure is
performed in two places. *The second binding, nearest the hub, ensures
the best exit angle for the inner spokes meaning the load is taken
upon the spoke elbow rather than the spoke head.

[1] E.g.
http://www.cyclingcloseouts.com/Products/DT-Swiss-ProLine-Beekeepers-.....

--
T m Sherm n - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Disregarding the long running argument, exactly how does one solder
stainless spokes? Do you use silver solder or some other type of
special solder since common lead-tin solder doesn't seem to adhere
well to stainless. Does it? Or is the technique to wrap with copper
wire and simply coat the copper with lead-tin solder ignoring the
non-adhesion to the stainless spokes?
Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

You need an acid base flux (I've used a paste) and tin-lead solder.
Don't use electrical solder as the rosin flux just gets in the way of
a clean joint. The binding wire is steel not copper. If you put the
paste on first and leave it a couple of minutes, it prepares the
surface so the joint is completed quicker without debris. I used a
brass brush for the last test I made with stainless spokes. I don't
see any advantage in stainless spokes, my tied and soldered wheel was
made using the galvanised zinc spokes, less fuss.

I'm sure there is a fluid flux preparation which is suitable, but
remember it will be acidic for stainless, so careful does it.

There may be advantage in using a harder silver solder when the
binding wire is particularly thin 28swg probably and thinner. It is
otherwise an unecessary exuberance, oh I nearly forgot, stainless, so
yes, use the expensive stuff.

In article ,
Duane Hébert wrote:

On 1/4/2011 5:29 AM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Duane wrote:

On 1/3/2011 3:45 PM, Chalo wrote:
Duane Hébert wrote:

Jay Beattie wrote:

In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed
metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop,
that is where I go to fix my steel frames.

Jay, are you replying to me or to Chalo? I suspect that he works in a
shop but I'm certain that I don'tg

Hey, maybe you should consider it! "Vélocipèdes Artisanales par
Maître Douain Hébert." Sounds expensive.

LOL. But I'm afraid that if it doesn't start with

int main() {

I'm going to be lost.

I am positive you meant to write int main(void) {


You must have learned C?
In C++ the void is not required and not usually used. I don't think
that it causes a diagnostic on any compiler either way though. Unlike
void main(){} g

You can get the diagnostic if you work at it.

$ cat blivet.c
int main() { return 0; }

$ cc -Wstrict-prototypes blivet.c
blivet.c:1: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype

--
Michael Press

On Jan 7, 3:54*pm, J. D. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 12:42:23 -0800 (PST), thirty-six





wrote:
On Jan 6, 6:42*am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 1/5/2011 10:24 PM, aka Andr s Muro wrote:

On Jan 5, 8:40 pm, *wrote:
[...]
Jobst is a fraud. *He says spokes were tied together to prevent
entanglement. *Here is the absolute proof that the tied and soldered
wheel was the original tangent spoked wheel.

* A tied and soldered wheel constructed in this manner far beats any
method described by JB in terms of load capacity, tracking, general
stability, avoidance of buckling (rather smelly things), specifically
lateral stability (torsional as Rudge describes it), climbing and
sprinting efficiency.

The interlaced spoke wheel came lalter as an economy measure with the
claim that it was as good as a tied and soldered wheel. *It never was
and still isn't. *It remains a production method for cheap bicycles
where a wheel can be built in about 5 minutes. *In UK, the tied and
soldered wheel still lived on as racing and heavy duty touring
equipment where requested by wheelbuilders who had the skill. *Mostly
this had been long forgotton by about 1990, new shop owners
uninterested in aquiring the skills to mark them above the rest. *Many
takeovers from the old mechanics failed and the businesses folded
within two years, the knowledge just was not there to sustain the
business.

the skill to tie and solder wheels? what skill? To wrap the crosses
with solder and you heat up. Why do that? Its a waste of time if a
properly built wheel will last you forever. There are thousands of
heavy duty tourists, cycle cross racers, pro racers, track sprinters,
kerin racers and pro cyclists that put a hell of abuse on their wheels
and yet they do great. If applying and melting some solder around the
spokes would strengthen the wheels, everyone would do it. Fact is,
Regular built wheels are pretty good. and plenty strong.

Remember that Trevor lives in an alternate Universe.

Spokes are *tied* with bee keeper's wire [1], then soldered (assuming
one believes in the Myth & Lore .)

T&S is performed on non-interlaced spokes.
Specifically, the binding wire is soldered to the spokes so that there
is no sliding of the spokes. *The thickening of the junction of the
spokes also reduces bending of the spokes, which takes place due to
tension differential. With 28 and more spokes, the T&S procedure is
performed in two places. *The second binding, nearest the hub, ensures
the best exit angle for the inner spokes meaning the load is taken
upon the spoke elbow rather than the spoke head.

[1] E.g.
http://www.cyclingcloseouts.com/Products/DT-Swiss-ProLine-Beekeepers-.....

--
T m Sherm n - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Disregarding the long running argument, exactly how does one solder
stainless spokes? Do you use silver solder or some other type of
special solder since common lead-tin solder doesn't seem to adhere
well to stainless. Does it? Or is the technique to wrap with copper
wire and simply coat the copper with lead-tin solder ignoring the
non-adhesion to the stainless spokes?
Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)- Hide quoted text -

I used a silver bearing solder and flux specified for stainless
steel. I forget the brand. It was available at welding shops and NSF
certified for use in food service. You could eat off my spoke ties,
and the polished up real purdy. Then Jobst scolded me for tying and
soldering about a million years ago, and I stopped. Sniff, sniff. --
Jay Beattie.

On Jan 8, 12:06*am, AMuzi wrote:
-snip wrapped&soldered spokes-

J. D. Slocomb wrote:
Disregarding the long running argument, exactly how does one solder
stainless spokes? Do you use silver solder or some other type of
special solder since common lead-tin solder doesn't seem to adhere
well to stainless. Does it? Or is the technique to wrap with copper
wire and simply coat the copper with lead-tin solder ignoring the
non-adhesion to the stainless spokes?

The solder is merely to keep the wire lashing from coming
undone.

Er, then it's not a structural tie. You will not see any advantage
with such a poor method, the solder adheres the binding wire to the
sokes and the spokes to each other to prevent relative movement
between the spokes. You're cosmetic version will be, cosmetic.

A great reason to do that is for vintage restorations.

Another reason hasn't yet appeared despite 100 years+ of
riders seeking it.

--
Andrew Muzi
* www.yellowjersey.org/
* Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Jan 6, 4:07*am, wrote:
*Jim Rogers wrote:
It doesn't need to be exceptionally low because the rim distributed
spoke stiffness circumferentially if it isn't terminally radially
flexible, and fails to transfer the stiffness of spokes around the
rim.
Really? *"Exceptionally low?" *Are you sure it wasn't "exceptionally
exceptionally low?"
Exceptional, because such rims are not readily available because they
are useless for bicycling but apply to the circumstances described.
What is this "readily" stuff? *Are these rims available or not?

Try to find ultra light aluminum rims that can be collapsed with bare
hands pushing the rim against the floor. *As I said, I recall years
ago how weight weenies rode the to destruction. *I haven't seen any
since, but one brand used the former pre-WWII German sprint ace's name
"Scheeren Weltmeisters". *Gustav Scheeren, himself a lightweight
sprinter, but probably not a world champion.

Scheeren rims had balsa wood plugs at each spoke to prevent collapse
from spoke tension, using no eyelets, the aluminum being
dimpled into the wood for supporting spoke nipples.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/49353569@N00/876808090/



Please leave the fluff out of your writing. *People who use such
modifiers are generally trying to use bluff and bluster to cover
their lack of understanding.
You're probably correct there. *I suppose I should have mad my
response a few sentences longer to cover that problem.
You suppose? Either you should have or you should not have. This is a
technical newsgroup and we are not interested in suppositions.
And why "a few sentences" longer? Could you not have simply said your
response should have been been longer? How many are a "few?" What are
you trying to hide with all these extra fluff words in your writing?
Simplify!
At least that's what a "friend of mine" once told me.
*Are you sure he was your-friend and not just someone known to
other bikies?
He's a friend of all and a great critic of extraneous modifiers in
writing. *Take his advice!

--
Jobst Brandt

That's odd, because the filled rims I came across had no means of
locating the 'wood insert', they were light wood rims with an aluminum
alloy casing. Simply drilled and counterbored. I I seriously doubt
that 36 individual pieces would be inserted, located and retained
exactly in position, then shipped thousands of miles for building into
wheels.

On Jan 4, 11:37*pm, wrote:
James Steward wrote:
We need to have a discussion some time about stiff wheels. *I'm
having trouble conceptualizing how an adequately tensioned wheel
would not be radially stiff (not talking laterally). *I hear talk
from various racer buddies about how one wheel or another is
super stiff and a "secret weapon" (another over-used advertising
term) in sprints, etc., which suggests to me that a wheel can be
radially limp some how, at least relatively speaking:

*http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

*http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-23159755.html

The first link is lateral stiffness. *The second link does talk
about frontal/radial stiffness and makes me wonder why anyone would
buy a wheel with spoke tension so low that it would allow rim
deformation under normal load -- particularly an uber-expensive
carbon wheel. --

Lateral stiffness or lateral wheel collapse is

absolutely guaranteed with a poor build.

dependent on rim
lateral stiffness, something that is not guaranteed by CF rims. *In the
days of yore, riders would spoke up track wheels for ultimate light
weight and end up with a pretzeled wheel at the first outing. *Those
were aluminum rims.

Just like an MA2 or MA40.

'pretzelled' wheels are due to insufficient lateral support from the
spokes along with excessive rim compression. Excessive rim
compression's number one cause is OVERTENSIONED SPOKES.


Indeed. *My old set of CXP30 wheel were (as far as I could perceive)
radially stiffer than my current Open-Pro and Ksyrium wheels.

Radial stiffness relies mainly on spokes, because they must
elastically stretch to appear flexible or soft.

Bull****. Poorly built spoke assemblies are unstable. This is due to
the common interlaced pattern spoking with interleaved spokes. A
bendy spoke pattern.

The difference became more noticeable in cornering on roads where there
is some corrugation. *The CXP30 wheels tended to skip across the road
whereas the Open-Pros and Ksyriums tend to ride the bumps a little more
softly and remain in contact with the road more.

Are you using the same tires and inflation? *You can't feel spoke
elasticity so I assume you are getting tire flex.

I can certainly tell the difference between a a poorly built
interlaced spoked wheel and a properly built tied and soldered spoked
wheel.

As a friendly LBS owner describes it, the Open-Pros are like wearing
slippers by comparison.

Sounds like a good sales talk!

Better than bull****ting about magical stress relief. What beer brand
are you using today?

The CXP30's were bullet proof, I guess reasonably aero, but fairly heavy.
After 10 or so years of not racing, I started again last July with the
local veteran club. *I've won a few A grade road sprints on the Ksyriums
now, and for someone who was never renowned as a road sprinter, I feel
the Ksyriums are no handicap, despite the low profile rim and low spoke
count (20 in the rear).

Why do you do THAT? *Low spoke count and low rim profile don't like
each other!

You're still a fool.

There is also some radial stiffness discussion here;

*http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/grignon.htm

That doesn't sound like a good ruling. *If this is a bicycle event
then competitors should use comparable equipment, which Moser did not.
--
Jobst Brandt

On Jan 5, 9:45*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 1/5/2011 4:35 PM, wrote:



Duane Hébert wrote:

I'm looking to replace my old road bike with a carbon fiber model.
My criteria a women's specific design, comfy for all day
riding, smooth riding, light weight, Shimano 105 components, and
preferably with three chainwheels.

Via the web, I've checked out the specs and reviews for following
bikes: Cannondale (Synapse Fem 5), Felt (ZW5), Giant (Avail
Advanced 2), Trek (Madrone 3.1WSD), or Specialized (Ruby Elite
Apex). *I was hoping y'all might have some insights into these
bikes so that I could minimize driving all over the state (there
are no local dealers for most of these) to do the final fit
check-out and test ride. *I don't know how comfort is specified on
a web page.

So here goes. *Assuming equally good fit and tire size/psi - Do
any of these bikes stand out as more smooth riding? *Do any of
these bikes stand out as more comfy for all day long cruising?
Does anyone have any idea how the weights compare for the same
size bike? *Thanks for any help trying to trim down my list of
potential bikes.

NO! *The comfort of a bicycle resides in its wheelbase and tires;
frames and wheels having practically no perceptible elasticity.
Therefore, test ride the bike and see if it fits your body: bars,
pedals, and saddle. *You can't ask for more. *If you chose a
suspension bicycle, you'll get speed instabilities that you won't
like. *Get large enough tires 28-30mm cross section and brakes that
you like. *That's where it's at!

Are you saying that all other things being equal, a bike with a CF
frame is not more comfortable than an aluminum frame? *That a steel
frame is not more comfortable than an aluminum frame? *Or am I
misunderstanding you?

I think what I wrote is unambiguous enough to not be misinterpreted.
You might review the FAQ on what holds the rim off the ground:

What's ambiguous is that you're saying that frames have practically no
elasticity but what about their ability to absorb vibration? *We're
talking about what makes bikes more comfortable. My CF bike seems to
absorb the road vibration better than my last aluminum bike.

The trick is to select components which not only have different
frequencies of oscillation, but also do not have coincidendal
harmonics. This is the basis for ensuring a long MTBF in systems
installed in military aircraft, for instance.




Subject: 8b.25 * What holds the rim off the ground?

# What forces keep the rim of a wheel with pneumatic tires off the
# ground. It obviously can't be inflation pressure because it's
# uniform around the wheel.

# As has been mentioned, casing walls pull on the rim (or its
# equivalent) and thereby support the load. *The tire casing leaves
# the rim at about a 45 degree angle, and being essentially a circular
# cross section, it is in contact with the rim over its inner quarter
# circle. *At least this is a representative model. *The visualization
# may be simpler if a tubular tire is considered. *It makes no
# difference whether the tire is held on by glue or is attached to the
# rim as a clincher is. *Either way the tire is attached to the rim, a
# relatively rigid structure.

So it is the angle of sidewall departure from the rim that gives
inflation pressure its load carrying abilities.

Yeah I got that.

On Jan 7, 3:15*am, James wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jan 6, 2:57 pm, James wrote:
wrote:
I, of course attribute my ability to stay with the uber carbon cyclist
with my cheap chromoly bike to my superb riding skills. It is a myth
that I love to preserve. "Andres can keep up with his super heavy
bike. Imagine how strong he would be with a pinarello Dogma". I have
to give others an edge ;-)
Ha! *I was accused of riding a dinosaur last Saturday. *I laughed and
said, "Yes, but I don't see you ever beating me!" *He never will either,
* despite the top of the range Trek he rides.

I've ridden with people who could beat me in a hill sprint on one bike
but not another (touring versus racing).

Obviously I would be much slower if I rode my MTB too. *The fellow I
spoke of was comparing his latest/greatest Trek incarnation with my new
steel racing bike (8.5kg dry, ~25" frame). *Just because it isn't made
of plastic and fibres, in his mind, it is a dinosaur.

Yeah, with teeth that like to munch.

But a few pounds and tire profile can make a difference
between two closely matched riders. We all can beat poseurs while
riding our beater bikes, but if you take someone who is strong -- and
your equal -- and put him or her on a much lighter bike, be prepared
to suffer. *I get throttled much worse when my riding buddy is on his
light bike, and I always try to convince him that it is a fender day
and that he should ride his cross bike. -- Jay Beattie.

Yes~! *We know when one guy is tired because he rides his racing bike on
training rides, hoping for an easier time.

JS.