Drink

On 8/8/2013 1:07 PM, Duane wrote:
On 8/8/2013 12:36 PM, Gus wrote:
"sms" wrote in message
...

"The improved endurance from taking caffeine is said to be achieved by
the "sparing" of muscle glycogen. Here's what this means. When you
perform an activity for an extended period of time, and at a moderate
pace, about half of your energy comes from glycogen (carbohydrates).
The other half comes from fat. But as the pace increases, your muscles
begin to rely increasingly on glycogen, and fat becomes less
important. Unfortunately, glycogen reserves, compared to fat deposits,
are quite limited. So after about an hour or two of exercise, your
glycogen supply abruptly runs out. And, as runners say, you "hit the
wall." You can go no further. The caffeine helps, because it
stimulates an increased use of fat as fuel during the exercise. As a
result, glycogen is conserved (spared), and you can keep going longer."
http://web.archive.org/web/20060913221026/http://www.hhp.ufl.edu/faculty/pbird/keepingfit/ARTICLE/caff.HTM




But caffeine is a diuretic. Who wants more stops and brbs when cycling?




That was the first thought that popped into my mind. The second was
what about the electrolytes and other things that keep you from bonking?

I think the "coffee is a diuretic" thing has been proven to be a myth.
Not that caffeine not a diuretic, but the liquid that you get by
drinking coffee still provides a net hydration effect.

If this weren't the case, I would have shriveled up into a raisin ages
ago... I pretty much swill coffee all morning and then have a couple
tall glasses of iced tea with lunch. I'm pretty sensitive to
dehydration too; if I have something that'll dry you out, e.g. pizza
late in the evening and don't remember to have a big glass of water
before going to bed, I'll wake up with a worse "hangover" than I ever
get from drinking booze.

If it weren't for caffeine I'd be even more useless than I already am...

nate

On 8/8/2013 9:36 AM, Gus wrote:

snip

But caffeine is a diuretic. Who wants more stops and brbs when cycling?

It's not. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12187618?dopt=Abstract.

"Investigations comparing caffeine (100-680 mg) to water or placebo
seldom found a statistical difference in urine volume. In the 10 studies
reviewed, consumption of a CB resulted in 0-84% retention of the initial
volume ingested, whereas consumption of water resulted in 0-81%
retention. Further, tolerance to caffeine reduces the likelihood that a
detrimental fluid-electrolyte imbalance will occur. The scientific
literature suggests that athletes and recreational enthusiasts will not
incur detrimental fluid-electrolyte imbalances if they consume CB in
moderation and eat a typical U.S. diet."

On 8/8/2013 10:40 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:

I think the "coffee is a diuretic" thing has been proven to be a myth.
Not that caffeine not a diuretic, but the liquid that you get by
drinking coffee still provides a net hydration effect.

This is true. Same with beer.

Also see http://www.diet-coaching.com/QOMMay2.html

On Thursday, 8 August 2013 18:07:21 UTC+1, Duane wrote:
On 8/8/2013 12:36 PM, Gus wrote:

"sms" wrote in message

...



"The improved endurance from taking caffeine is said to be achieved by

the "sparing" of muscle glycogen. Here's what this means. When you

perform an activity for an extended period of time, and at a moderate

pace, about half of your energy comes from glycogen (carbohydrates).

The other half comes from fat. But as the pace increases, your muscles

begin to rely increasingly on glycogen, and fat becomes less

important. Unfortunately, glycogen reserves, compared to fat deposits,

are quite limited. So after about an hour or two of exercise, your

glycogen supply abruptly runs out. And, as runners say, you "hit the

wall." You can go no further. The caffeine helps, because it

stimulates an increased use of fat as fuel during the exercise. As a

result, glycogen is conserved (spared), and you can keep going longer."

http://web.archive.org/web/20060913221026/http://www.hhp.ufl.edu/faculty/pbird/keepingfit/ARTICLE/caff.HTM







But caffeine is a diuretic. Who wants more stops and brbs when cycling?









That was the first thought that popped into my mind. The second was

what about the electrolytes and other things that keep you from bonking?

The basics are water, sugar and sea salt. This will get you moving but is not in itself good in the long term. White table sugar is likely as good as it gets and may be carried as sugar cubes. Alternatives include barley malt extract or honey and I do like both, whether off the spoon or in drinks.. For you electolytes, you need to keep on top of magnesium and potassium, which means greens and fruits. Green tea really does help as does munching on dates, figs, dried apricots. The sea salt, bicarb, citric acid and sugar mix is really a last resort and you should be working on food intake to satisfy "electrolyte requirements". The ingestion of water then allows the body to uptake (in minerals and sugars) what it needs and dump what is in excess through the alimentary canal.

On Thursday, 8 August 2013 18:40:30 UTC+1, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 8/8/2013 1:07 PM, Duane wrote:

On 8/8/2013 12:36 PM, Gus wrote:

"sms" wrote in message

...



"The improved endurance from taking caffeine is said to be achieved by

the "sparing" of muscle glycogen. Here's what this means. When you

perform an activity for an extended period of time, and at a moderate

pace, about half of your energy comes from glycogen (carbohydrates).

The other half comes from fat. But as the pace increases, your muscles

begin to rely increasingly on glycogen, and fat becomes less

important. Unfortunately, glycogen reserves, compared to fat deposits,

are quite limited. So after about an hour or two of exercise, your

glycogen supply abruptly runs out. And, as runners say, you "hit the

wall." You can go no further. The caffeine helps, because it

stimulates an increased use of fat as fuel during the exercise. As a

result, glycogen is conserved (spared), and you can keep going longer.."

http://web.archive.org/web/20060913221026/http://www.hhp.ufl.edu/faculty/pbird/keepingfit/ARTICLE/caff.HTM









But caffeine is a diuretic. Who wants more stops and brbs when cycling?









That was the first thought that popped into my mind. The second was

what about the electrolytes and other things that keep you from bonking?



I think the "coffee is a diuretic" thing has been proven to be a myth.

Not that caffeine not a diuretic, but the liquid that you get by

drinking coffee still provides a net hydration effect.



If this weren't the case, I would have shriveled up into a raisin ages

ago... I pretty much swill coffee all morning and then have a couple

tall glasses of iced tea with lunch. I'm pretty sensitive to

dehydration too; if I have something that'll dry you out, e.g. pizza

late in the evening and don't remember to have a big glass of water

before going to bed, I'll wake up with a worse "hangover" than I ever

get from drinking booze.



If it weren't for caffeine I'd be even more useless than I already am...



nate

I realise this can be upsetting, but perhaps it's the cheese that you disagree with. To test, eat cheese (or whatever food is to be tested) for breakfast with only a litle water if absolutely necessary. Eat nothing else except the cheese all day until you get to your evening meal for which you may eat and drink what you desire. If you can mange this for seven days, then that breakfast food is good for you, at this time. If you are struggling with the regime then that is not a food for you.

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 10:07:21 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
On 8/8/2013 12:36 PM, Gus wrote:
"sms" snip wrote:



"The improved endurance from taking caffeine is said to be achieved by
the "sparing" of muscle glycogen. Here's what this means. When you
perform an activity for an extended period of time, and at a moderate
pace, about half of your energy comes from glycogen (carbohydrates).
The other half comes from fat. But as the pace increases, your muscles
begin to rely increasingly on glycogen, and fat becomes less
important. Unfortunately, glycogen reserves, compared to fat deposits,
are quite limited. So after about an hour or two of exercise, your
glycogen supply abruptly runs out. And, as runners say, you "hit the
wall." You can go no further. The caffeine helps, because it
stimulates an increased use of fat as fuel during the exercise. As a
result, glycogen is conserved (spared), and you can keep going longer."

http://web.archive.org/web/20060913221026/http://www.hhp.ufl.edu/faculty/pbird/keepingfit/ARTICLE/caff.HTM

But caffeine is a diuretic. Who wants more stops and brbs when cycling?

That was the first thought that popped into my mind. The second was
what about the electrolytes and other things that keep you from bonking?

I like coffee (rather an understatement - caffeine junkie more like it),
but generally avoid it while riding.

And I don't buy (edu TLD notwithstanding) the hitting the wall and can
go no further unless you take some caffeine to release the ketones thing.
You don't need caffeine to burn fat - you just need fat and out of other
primary energy sources. (Sounds like a diet pill ad.)

I can see how caffeine might help help, but am concerned that it could
turn out badly.

For me, water, sugar - and if I'm going to be actually eating and not
just "fueling" - some good food that will give a head start on restoring
balance and supply when I eventually rest.

Getting back to the Gatorade and such, IME you really need to have
balance and supply before you start out. ISTR reading something credible
that said you can't effectively replace electrolytes during high activity.
You need to stay hydrated - maybe some salty snacks to make you "feel"
better.

On Thursday, 8 August 2013 18:42:29 UTC+1, SMS wrote:
On 8/8/2013 9:36 AM, Gus wrote:



snip



But caffeine is a diuretic. Who wants more stops and brbs when cycling?



It's not. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12187618?dopt=Abstract.



"Investigations comparing caffeine (100-680 mg) to water or placebo

seldom found a statistical difference in urine volume. In the 10 studies

reviewed, consumption of a CB resulted in 0-84% retention of the initial

volume ingested, whereas consumption of water resulted in 0-81%

retention. Further, tolerance to caffeine reduces the likelihood that a

detrimental fluid-electrolyte imbalance will occur. The scientific

literature suggests that athletes and recreational enthusiasts will not

incur detrimental fluid-electrolyte imbalances if they consume CB in

moderation and eat a typical U.S. diet."

I won't be eating a typical U.S. diet, but I do still occasionally have good coffee.

On 8/8/2013 1:40 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 8/8/2013 1:07 PM, Duane wrote:
On 8/8/2013 12:36 PM, Gus wrote:
"sms" wrote in message
...

"The improved endurance from taking caffeine is said to be achieved by
the "sparing" of muscle glycogen. Here's what this means. When you
perform an activity for an extended period of time, and at a moderate
pace, about half of your energy comes from glycogen (carbohydrates).
The other half comes from fat. But as the pace increases, your muscles
begin to rely increasingly on glycogen, and fat becomes less
important. Unfortunately, glycogen reserves, compared to fat deposits,
are quite limited. So after about an hour or two of exercise, your
glycogen supply abruptly runs out. And, as runners say, you "hit the
wall." You can go no further. The caffeine helps, because it
stimulates an increased use of fat as fuel during the exercise. As a
result, glycogen is conserved (spared), and you can keep going longer."
http://web.archive.org/web/20060913221026/http://www.hhp.ufl.edu/faculty/pbird/keepingfit/ARTICLE/caff.HTM





But caffeine is a diuretic. Who wants more stops and brbs when cycling?




That was the first thought that popped into my mind. The second was
what about the electrolytes and other things that keep you from bonking?

I think the "coffee is a diuretic" thing has been proven to be a myth.
Not that caffeine not a diuretic, but the liquid that you get by
drinking coffee still provides a net hydration effect.

If this weren't the case, I would have shriveled up into a raisin ages
ago... I pretty much swill coffee all morning and then have a couple
tall glasses of iced tea with lunch. I'm pretty sensitive to
dehydration too; if I have something that'll dry you out, e.g. pizza
late in the evening and don't remember to have a big glass of water
before going to bed, I'll wake up with a worse "hangover" than I ever
get from drinking booze.

If it weren't for caffeine I'd be even more useless than I already am...

No doubt that's true for me as well but I've learned to limit it to 2
cups before a ride or I can't get passed 30k or so without a stop.

On 8/8/2013 1:48 PM, sms wrote:
On 8/8/2013 10:40 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:

I think the "coffee is a diuretic" thing has been proven to be a myth.
Not that caffeine not a diuretic, but the liquid that you get by
drinking coffee still provides a net hydration effect.

This is true. Same with beer.

Also see http://www.diet-coaching.com/QOMMay2.html



It's not that coffee doesn't hydrate. It's that coffee makes me stop
for a tree more often.

On 8/8/2013 1:59 PM, Dan O wrote:
On Thursday, August 8, 2013 10:07:21 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
On 8/8/2013 12:36 PM, Gus wrote:
"sms" snip wrote:



"The improved endurance from taking caffeine is said to be achieved by
the "sparing" of muscle glycogen. Here's what this means. When you
perform an activity for an extended period of time, and at a moderate
pace, about half of your energy comes from glycogen (carbohydrates).
The other half comes from fat. But as the pace increases, your muscles
begin to rely increasingly on glycogen, and fat becomes less
important. Unfortunately, glycogen reserves, compared to fat deposits,
are quite limited. So after about an hour or two of exercise, your
glycogen supply abruptly runs out. And, as runners say, you "hit the
wall." You can go no further. The caffeine helps, because it
stimulates an increased use of fat as fuel during the exercise. As a
result, glycogen is conserved (spared), and you can keep going longer."

http://web.archive.org/web/20060913221026/http://www.hhp.ufl.edu/faculty/pbird/keepingfit/ARTICLE/caff.HTM

But caffeine is a diuretic. Who wants more stops and brbs when cycling?

That was the first thought that popped into my mind. The second was
what about the electrolytes and other things that keep you from bonking?

I like coffee (rather an understatement - caffeine junkie more like it),
but generally avoid it while riding.


Oh, I'm not functional without coffee. It's just that I have to limit
it to 2 cups or so before a ride.

And I don't buy (edu TLD notwithstanding) the hitting the wall and can
go no further unless you take some caffeine to release the ketones thing.
You don't need caffeine to burn fat - you just need fat and out of other
primary energy sources. (Sounds like a diet pill ad.)

I can see how caffeine might help help, but am concerned that it could
turn out badly.

For me, water, sugar - and if I'm going to be actually eating and not
just "fueling" - some good food that will give a head start on restoring
balance and supply when I eventually rest.

Getting back to the Gatorade and such, IME you really need to have
balance and supply before you start out. ISTR reading something credible
that said you can't effectively replace electrolytes during high activity.
You need to stay hydrated - maybe some salty snacks to make you "feel"
better.



I try to hydrate the day before a long ride and eat well but the
gatorade type stuff helps me to prevent bonking. I've been doing this
for a long enough time to know what works. Maybe it's my funky blood
sugar or whatever.