Remarkable difference in chain wear

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 5:14:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/26/2017 7:26 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:

Years ago, Jobst had posted his approach which IIRC was to remove the
chain, put it in a jar of kerosene, soak and agitate and then relube
with motor oil. IIRC he had two chains and alternated them.

Jobst was brilliant. But some of his opinions were just opinions. I
greatly prefer data, which is why I linked the images from that 1977
article.

Someone in the newsgroup halved a chain and used two quicklinks to be
able to separate them. He treated 1/2 of the chain the way Jobst did
and just occasionally relubed the other half. The washed and relubed
chain showed much greater wear than the one that was just re-oiled
sometimes. the conclusion, IIRC, was that washing the chain transported
fine grit into the links and acted as a grinding slurry.

That seems like a pretty good comparison test of those two methods.

Chains that run in a chaincase and an oil bath, kept from from grit and
sand, dirt, etc., last a really long time. Timing chains in an engine,
for example, last 100,000 miles pretty easily. Bike chains are mostly
exposed to the environment and get fouled quickly.

Right. What we do with bike chains would violate most engineering
standards for chain drives.

I have found that "dry" lubes in a bottle are never really dry, and
collect just as much crap. Wax/paraffin (the US definition of the
latter, I don't know what it's called in countries that use "paraffin"
for diesel fuel) is a nuisance to apply and has to be reapplied fairly
often, since it gets squeezed out of the load bearing surfaces in the
links quickly.

I disagree, at least, depending how you apply it. As mentioned, my
method is not to remove the chain and soak it in molten wax. Instead,
the chain stays on the bike, is warmed with a propane torch, the wax+oil
mix is crayoned on, then reheated so it flows into the chain's innards.
(This has some similarity to the "just re-oiled" method above.) It takes
perhaps five minutes, certainly less than ten, and lasts many hundreds
of miles.

I've never found a liquid based wax lube that was worth
a damn, which brings me to my question: Lou, what wax lube are you
using?

I wondered that as well.

I'm a little leery about hitting my chain with a propane torch -- and whatever is behind the chain. Do you use an asbestos blanket? I wonder if it smells like burning hair if you torch a CF frame.

Ever considered a heat gun or hair dryer? I could use my ski waxing iron. I'd probably go a lot faster if I used a high-fluorocarbon wax -- unless I used a warm wax and it got cold out. Then I'd be screwed. Picking the right wax for spring riding is so hard -- something with a lot of graphite so my chain doesn't stick. I hate it when my chain sticks, and I go over the bars. Do you scrape your chain after application?

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 8:58:09 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
I'm a little leery about hitting my chain with a propane torch -- and whatever is behind the chain. Do you use an asbestos blanket? I wonder if it smells like burning hair if you torch a CF frame.

Snipped -- Jay Beattie.

The other evening as I was riding my bicycle home from a shopping trip I was sure I could smell hot rubber. I checked the lights and all the connections and wires but could find nothing. So I took off the battery light and used it to look closely at everything else on the bike. Turns out that the rar bsket mounted to the seatpost via the basket mount had slipped and the weight of it had pressed the fender against the top of the tire. I wonder what would have happened had I not stopped to find the source of the burning rubber smell? A blown out tire perhaps?

Cheers

On 4/26/2017 8:58 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 5:14:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/26/2017 7:26 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:

I have found that "dry" lubes in a bottle are never really dry, and
collect just as much crap. Wax/paraffin (the US definition of the
latter, I don't know what it's called in countries that use "paraffin"
for diesel fuel) is a nuisance to apply and has to be reapplied fairly
often, since it gets squeezed out of the load bearing surfaces in the
links quickly.

I disagree, at least, depending how you apply it. As mentioned, my
method is not to remove the chain and soak it in molten wax. Instead,
the chain stays on the bike, is warmed with a propane torch, the wax+oil
mix is crayoned on, then reheated so it flows into the chain's innards.
(This has some similarity to the "just re-oiled" method above.) It takes
perhaps five minutes, certainly less than ten, and lasts many hundreds
of miles.

I'm a little leery about hitting my chain with a propane torch -- and whatever is behind the chain. Do you use an asbestos blanket?

I use a thin sheet of aluminum (maybe 5 thousanths thick?) that hangs
from the chainstay, between the lower rung of chain and the wheel+tire.

Ever considered a heat gun or hair dryer?

The torch is on a low flame, maybe 1" - 1.5" long. It's easy to direct
it precisely, and not in contact with any one link for very long. I'd
think a dryer would take much longer and not be as easy to aim, so to speak.

I could use my ski waxing iron.

Very doubtful.

Do you scrape your chain after application?

The method requires doing about 10" of chain at a time, since I'm able
to apply wax only to the bottom free run of the chain. Wax, backpedal,
repeat. Then I wipe off the excess with a fistful of paper towels.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 1:26:58 AM UTC+2, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 13:29:33 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 9:42:19 PM UTC+2,
wrote:

Cleaning a chain kills them faster than leaving an externally dirty
chain. While I have chain cleaners and I have powerful stuff to wash
off the lube I have found that the original chain grease installed by
the manufacturer is by FAR the best lubricant. I get thousands of
miles without wear with only the original nasty chain grease but only
perhaps 1500 miles using over-the-counter chain lubes.

For your information the first think I do when I put on a new chain is
wash out the factory stuff. It attracts to much dirt and don't mix
with the wax base lube I use.


So what probably happened was that you washed that grease out from
the inside of the links and figured that your Rohloff chain lube was
sufficient.

What I believe is that the Rohloff lube attract to much dirt and sand
that worked its way into the internals. After a short time it was an
incredible mess.

Years ago, Jobst had posted his approach which IIRC was to remove the
chain, put it in a jar of kerosene, soak and agitate and then relube
with motor oil. IIRC he had two chains and alternated them.

Someone in the newsgroup halved a chain and used two quicklinks to be
able to separate them. He treated 1/2 of the chain the way Jobst did
and just occasionally relubed the other half. The washed and relubed
chain showed much greater wear than the one that was just re-oiled
sometimes. the conclusion, IIRC, was that washing the chain transported
fine grit into the links and acted as a grinding slurry.

I agree with that. I think the biggest mistake I made with the worn chain was to try to wash out to Rohloff oil to start using the wax based lube again.


Chains that run in a chaincase and an oil bath, kept from from grit and
sand, dirt, etc., last a really long time. Timing chains in an engine,
for example, last 100,000 miles pretty easily. Bike chains are mostly
exposed to the environment and get fouled quickly.

I have found that "dry" lubes in a bottle are never really dry, and
collect just as much crap. Wax/paraffin (the US definition of the
latter, I don't know what it's called in countries that use "paraffin"
for diesel fuel) is a nuisance to apply and has to be reapplied fairly
often, since it gets squeezed out of the load bearing surfaces in the
links quickly. I've never found a liquid based wax lube that was worth
a damn, which brings me to my question: Lou, what wax lube are you
using?

A mixture a colleague developed. He tried to commercialise it but as far as I know to much environmental issues. It is still on the net:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-cFVz5cv70

Lou

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 1:44:39 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 1:26:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 9:31:41 PM UTC+2, wrote:
Opinion. I would guess you rode different terrain on the two bikes. Maybe more hard sprinting or climbing on the worn out aluminum chain bike. Easy flat downhill tailwind riding on the carbon chain bike. Or you chose the aluminum chain bike when the weather was rainy, roads dirty. And rode the carbon chain on sunny nice days. Despite your insistence that you had no preference in bikes, you obviously chose the carbon for more riding mileage. Some preference made you ride it more miles. If you were completely impartial in choice, the mileage would be much closer over three years. So type of terrain, effort of riding, and weather conditions caused the chain wear difference.

We have only one terrain her in the Netherlands ;-) The difference in mileage can partly be explained by the fact that I build the Al bike 4 months later. Weather is certainly not a criteria which bike I use. When it rains I use the bike that is the dirtiest at that moment. My theory is that the time I used the Rohloff lube ****ed up that chain because it attracts dirt like horseshoe attracts flies.

What is your wax lube formula?

-- Jay Beattie.

A mixture a colleague developed. He tried to commercialise it but as far as I know to much environmental issues. It is still on the net:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-cFVz5cv70

Lou

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 2:58:09 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 5:14:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/26/2017 7:26 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:

Years ago, Jobst had posted his approach which IIRC was to remove the
chain, put it in a jar of kerosene, soak and agitate and then relube
with motor oil. IIRC he had two chains and alternated them.

Jobst was brilliant. But some of his opinions were just opinions. I
greatly prefer data, which is why I linked the images from that 1977
article.

Someone in the newsgroup halved a chain and used two quicklinks to be
able to separate them. He treated 1/2 of the chain the way Jobst did
and just occasionally relubed the other half. The washed and relubed
chain showed much greater wear than the one that was just re-oiled
sometimes. the conclusion, IIRC, was that washing the chain transported
fine grit into the links and acted as a grinding slurry.

That seems like a pretty good comparison test of those two methods.

Chains that run in a chaincase and an oil bath, kept from from grit and
sand, dirt, etc., last a really long time. Timing chains in an engine,
for example, last 100,000 miles pretty easily. Bike chains are mostly
exposed to the environment and get fouled quickly.

Right. What we do with bike chains would violate most engineering
standards for chain drives.

I have found that "dry" lubes in a bottle are never really dry, and
collect just as much crap. Wax/paraffin (the US definition of the
latter, I don't know what it's called in countries that use "paraffin"
for diesel fuel) is a nuisance to apply and has to be reapplied fairly
often, since it gets squeezed out of the load bearing surfaces in the
links quickly.

I disagree, at least, depending how you apply it. As mentioned, my
method is not to remove the chain and soak it in molten wax. Instead,
the chain stays on the bike, is warmed with a propane torch, the wax+oil
mix is crayoned on, then reheated so it flows into the chain's innards.
(This has some similarity to the "just re-oiled" method above.) It takes
perhaps five minutes, certainly less than ten, and lasts many hundreds
of miles.

I've never found a liquid based wax lube that was worth
a damn, which brings me to my question: Lou, what wax lube are you
using?

I wondered that as well.

I'm a little leery about hitting my chain with a propane torch -- and whatever is behind the chain. Do you use an asbestos blanket? I wonder if it smells like burning hair if you torch a CF frame.

Ever considered a heat gun or hair dryer? I could use my ski waxing iron. I'd probably go a lot faster if I used a high-fluorocarbon wax -- unless I used a warm wax and it got cold out. Then I'd be screwed. Picking the right wax for spring riding is so hard -- something with a lot of graphite so my chain doesn't stick. I hate it when my chain sticks, and I go over the bars. Do you scrape your chain after application?

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay I don't use a torch. The stuff I use has isopropanol to thin it up and get into the inners of the chain. After applying you have to wait a couple of hours to let the isopropanol evaporate.

Lou

wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 1:44:39 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 1:26:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:

Rohloff lube attracts dirt

old product, old news.

What is your wax lube formula?

A mixture a colleague developed. He tried to commercialise it but as far
as I know to much environmental issues. It is still on the net
http://www.m-gineering.nl/sbmanual.pdf
http://www.m-gineering.nl/shopg.htm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-cFVz5cv70

Ouch, "Bicycle Race" alert! How could any inventor be so unimaginative?


--
secret mineral ingredient exposed!
http://www.febenat.be/nl/technische-...supreme-black/

Someone in the newsgroup halved a chain and used two quicklinks to be
able to separate them. He treated 1/2 of the chain the way Jobst did
and just occasionally relubed the other half. The washed and relubed
chain showed much greater wear than the one that was just re-oiled
sometimes. the conclusion, IIRC, was that washing the chain transported
fine grit into the links and acted as a grinding slurry.

That -was- indeed very interesting. The conclusion was not that washing the chain leads to slurry - one rinses until the last clean solvent stays clean - the conclusion was simply that washing the chain until clean and then lubing it not only does not result in longer chain life than lubing it without taking it apart and after cleaning it in some arbitrary and vaguely specified method without taking it apart.

Rereading it yet again, that last part is really bothersome. He said he cleaned it with a toothbrush, but with how much solvent wash; are we to assume that there was still dirt in the cracks? He is specific that he washed the other half until the solvent came clean, but how thorough was he with the rag and toothbrush? Might have been more interesting to simply lube the chain dirty.

It also seems like both halves were not washed before the final measurements were taken. What would it have measured if clean?

Somebody please do a retest and correct these flaws. Google "Actual data for the chain cleaning debate"


-----------
Date Miles Elongation Elongation Notes
of washed of unwashed
chain chain
07/11/03 0
07/14/03 137.1 0 0 Dusty and
noisy
07/23/03 328.6 1/64 1/64 Dusty and
slightly noisy
08/01/03 607.24 1/64 1/64
08/11/03 819.71 1/64 1/64
09/02/03 1076.67 1/64 1/32
rain
09/19/03 1430.39 1/64 1/32
noisy
10/23/03 1801.17 3/64 1/32

11/07/03 2257.55 3/64 1/32

01/05/04 2739.52 1/16 1/32
Very dirty and noisy


Conclusions:
It isn't worth it to soak a chain out in solvent. I've stopped doing so, but I will be very careful to measure often.