From Ory-gun with love: T47 BBs

Rain-snow mix here, just above freezing. Ugly indeed.

- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 3:09:24 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 11:45:08 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 1:46:54 PM UTC-7, wrote:
snip
In theory, I suppose you could cut those threads so as to form an
interference fit. But practically that makes no sense. Wrapping the
threads with teflon tape does stop the creaking IME, perhaps by reducing
the clearance and by lubricating the interface.

At least, that's what I experienced with my Cannondale.

Same here. Threaded are more convenient and probably less prone to creaking and clicking, but not perfect in an aluminum frame. BB30/90/86 has actually been fine for me except on my commuter (BB30), and I still think that most of the creaking and snapping comes from the rear wheel/axle/dropout interface. The QR axle has a smooth face, and I think fretting causes noise. I'm done buying bikes, but if I wasn't, my next bike would have a threaded BB, assuming I had a choice.

-- Jay Beattie.

I'm done buying bikes? WTF? Are you sick? Frank is that you?


O.K., I should have said "bikes without motors." BTW, I'm dying of COVID-19 -- indirectly.

Working from home, I've been doing lunch rides instead of my plod-along commute, and I've been riding with my next-door neighbor and best biking buddy who is also working from home. He uses these rides to throttle me for an hour. My allergies are fierce this year with bad asthma, which makes it worse -- and we always do a climb into the West Hills. And I'm old! We leave the house, ride over some rollers and hit the climb -- this is part of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJRnwgPa6rM&app=desktop It keeps going up and then you hit kind of a flat-rolling ridge and do laps.

And even if I go alone, EVERYBODY is out on a bike. We've had this incredible streak of sunshine, and its like a Cat 5 crit just riding around. I really need to just let people pass me.

-- Jay Beattie.

Ouch. Is that your creaking bike? We have that kind of weather for weeks now.

Lou

No, that's just some random guy who posted video from a segment of the Ronde PDX which runs around the hills near my house (and not so near). https://ridewithgps.com/ambassador_r...on-of-de-ronde

We've had a super-dry April. It was probably good COVID-19 shut the ski resorts since the snow-pack is struggling. Now we can fret about drought and virus.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, April 13, 2020 at 1:27:24 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
https://www.velonews.com/gear/argona...w-threaded-bb/ There is a new article in Velo News about Trek adopting the standard for some of its bikes including the new Domane.

I had threaded outboard BBs that creaked. It's not like they were perfect, and you have a double interface with the threaded body and the pressed-in bearing, so AFAIK,absolute silence is not a guaranty. But its supposed to be pretty slick. What is old is new again -- except bigger. Like tennis rackets and bike tires. And with Chris King, you know it will be affordable.

-- Jay Beattie.


Anti-sieze on the threads and torquing with a torque wrench helps. Over-or under-torqued, and dry threads sticking releasing from surface tension can make the creaking sound.
Barry

On 4/17/2020 5:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Rain-snow mix here, just above freezing. Ugly indeed.

- Frank Krygowski


Yet another grey cold lack of Spring here too although
tomorrow looks hopeful. Still waiting for Global Warming and
any time now would not be too soon.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/17/2020 4:27 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 9:28:01 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/16/2020 12:03 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 4/13/2020 6:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/13/2020 8:06 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 20:36:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/13/2020 6:56 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:10:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, April 13, 2020 at 10:27:24 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
https://www.velonews.com/gear/argona...w-threaded-bb/
There is a new article in Velo News about Trek adopting the
standard for some of its bikes including the new Domane.

I had threaded outboard BBs that creaked.* It's not like they
were perfect, and you have a double interface with the threaded
body and the pressed-in bearing, so AFAIK,absolute silence is not
a guaranty. But its supposed to be pretty slick. What is old is
new again -- except bigger. Like tennis rackets and bike tires.
And with Chris King, you know it will be affordable.

-- Jay Beattie.

I will take english threaded outboard BB any time. As long as
replacements cost less than 20 euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...racket-p35878/


I don't need bigger bearings and don't care about creaks that
happen seldom. Press fit BB are a PIA in more than one way.

Lou

I've always wondered about the "creaking BB"? What is creaking? It
can't be the bearing cups as they are, or should be, screwed into the
threaded housing and tightened; tight! If the bearings are adjusted
correctly they won't creak, or at least a* much smaller but similar in
construction wheel bearing doesn't creak, or does it? So what's left?
The BB shaft is bending? The pedal arm moving on a tapered shaft
because it isn't mounted correctly?

I've had two major incidences of "creaking bottom bracket" on my
ancient
Cannondale. One was indeed the bottom bracket (a SunTour cartridge
unit)
despite it being installed nice and tight. I cured it by wrapping the
threads of the locating cups with teflon tape. I think the explanation
is that the threads are not an interference fit. There must be some
tiny
clearance between the male and female (frame) threads, and even if
tight, those parts can wobble under the heavy loads of hard pedaling.
Aluminum bikes are known for that problem.

Not to argue but a properly torqued thread shouldn't move as the
longitudinal tension 'should' keep the 60 degree thread centered.
Shouldn't it. Example: a three jaw chuck mounted on a 15 inch lathe
doesn't move on the threads under the heaviest cutting load. Does it?

The second "creaking bottom bracket" on that bike turned out to instead
be from the saddle. I think the plastic top sometimes rubs against the
saddle rail, or perhaps the rubbing is where the rails plug into the
plastic top. It drove me nuts for quite a while, partly because it was
so intermittent.

When it returns, I try to ignore it until I get home. Then I try to
remember to spray some lube in various places in the saddle. But that's
difficult, because when I'm taking the bike into the house, it never
squeaks to remind me!

My Brooks saddle used to make squeaking noises AND! Back when I lived
at home and we had horses a saddle would occasionally creak :-) Some
neatsfoot oil used to cure that :-)


In real life, crank bearing cups do however 'walk' out, especially for
riders who mash. The effect is precession which you don't see in a
simple static model of a drive train.

No one writes better on the subject than Mr Brandt himself. See
section 8i9 he
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/


Are we talking Italian-threaded BBs?* I thought with the rest - and
their left-hand-threaded fixed cups - precession should tend to tighten
the cups.* I thought that was the whole point of the left-hand-threaded
fixed cup.

I agree that is the point of the left handed thread. I think the issue
is this: Whether or not the precession tends to tighten the cup, there
is still a possibility of microscopic relative motion between the male
and female threads. The cup doesn't screw inwards, but it still wobbles
microscopically, causing creaking with some bikes. The only way to stop
the wobbling is to remove the clearance between male and female threads.

In theory, I suppose you could cut those threads so as to form an
interference fit. But practically that makes no sense. Wrapping the
threads with teflon tape does stop the creaking IME, perhaps by reducing
the clearance and by lubricating the interface.

At least, that's what I experienced with my Cannondale.

Same here. Threaded are more convenient and probably less prone to
creaking and clicking, but not perfect in an aluminum frame. BB30/90/86
has actually been fine for me except on my commuter (BB30), and I still
think that most of the creaking and snapping comes from the rear
wheel/axle/dropout interface. The QR axle has a smooth face, and I think
fretting causes noise. I'm done buying bikes, but if I wasn't, my next
bike would have a threaded BB, assuming I had a choice.

I think if you wanted to investigate, you could spray a little light
lubricant on a suspected joint, just for diagnostic purposes. See if it
quiets down or changes tone.

I've mentioned before, the first folding bike I ever bought was a very
used original model Dahon. An absolutely terrible machine, but it was
cheap. Anyway, it rode (and probably rides) really badly, and squeaked
like a pig. But when I lubricated all the many various frame joints and
connections, the squeaking went away, and the bike seemed to ride much
better.

"Seemed" is the important word in that sentence. It was a psychological
thing.



Sometimes the hardest thing in the world is figuring out whether something
is happening inside your head or outside of it.

On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:43:18 -0500,
AMuzi wrote:
On 4/17/2020 3:27 PM, jbeattie wrote:

Same here. Threaded are more convenient and probably less
prone to creaking and clicking, but not perfect in an aluminum
frame. BB30/90/86 has actually been fine for me except on my
commuter (BB30), and I still think that most of the creaking
and snapping comes from the rear wheel/axle/dropout interface.
The QR axle has a smooth face, and I think fretting causes
noise. I'm done buying bikes, but if I wasn't, my next bike
would have a threaded BB, assuming I had a choice.

Choice is good. You ought to have exactly what you prefer, no
matter how much other riders want something else:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/wfd20e.jpg

Not a color I would choose, but otherwise a lovely bike.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 18/04/2020 03:33, Ralph Barone wrote:

snip

Sometimes the hardest thing in the world is figuring out whether something
is happening inside your head or outside of it.

I rely on the penguins to sort that out for me.

Tosspot writes:

On 18/04/2020 03:33, Ralph Barone wrote:

snip

Sometimes the hardest thing in the world is figuring out whether something
is happening inside your head or outside of it.

I rely on the penguins to sort that out for me.

You have penguins? Spiders was all I could ever afford.

On Monday, April 13, 2020 at 7:37:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/13/2020 8:57 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 20:40:09 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 4/13/2020 8:06 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 20:36:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/13/2020 6:56 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:10:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, April 13, 2020 at 10:27:24 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
https://www.velonews.com/gear/argona...w-threaded-bb/ There is a new article in Velo News about Trek adopting the standard for some of its bikes including the new Domane.

I had threaded outboard BBs that creaked. It's not like they were perfect, and you have a double interface with the threaded body and the pressed-in bearing, so AFAIK,absolute silence is not a guaranty. But its supposed to be pretty slick. What is old is new again -- except bigger. Like tennis rackets and bike tires. And with Chris King, you know it will be affordable.

-- Jay Beattie.

I will take english threaded outboard BB any time. As long as replacements cost less than 20 euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...racket-p35878/

I don't need bigger bearings and don't care about creaks that happen seldom. Press fit BB are a PIA in more than one way.

Lou

I've always wondered about the "creaking BB"? What is creaking? It
can't be the bearing cups as they are, or should be, screwed into the
threaded housing and tightened; tight! If the bearings are adjusted
correctly they won't creak, or at least a much smaller but similar in
construction wheel bearing doesn't creak, or does it? So what's left?
The BB shaft is bending? The pedal arm moving on a tapered shaft
because it isn't mounted correctly?

I've had two major incidences of "creaking bottom bracket" on my ancient
Cannondale. One was indeed the bottom bracket (a SunTour cartridge unit)
despite it being installed nice and tight. I cured it by wrapping the
threads of the locating cups with teflon tape. I think the explanation
is that the threads are not an interference fit. There must be some tiny
clearance between the male and female (frame) threads, and even if
tight, those parts can wobble under the heavy loads of hard pedaling..
Aluminum bikes are known for that problem.

Not to argue but a properly torqued thread shouldn't move as the
longitudinal tension 'should' keep the 60 degree thread centered.
Shouldn't it. Example: a three jaw chuck mounted on a 15 inch lathe
doesn't move on the threads under the heaviest cutting load. Does it?

The second "creaking bottom bracket" on that bike turned out to instead
be from the saddle. I think the plastic top sometimes rubs against the
saddle rail, or perhaps the rubbing is where the rails plug into the
plastic top. It drove me nuts for quite a while, partly because it was
so intermittent.

When it returns, I try to ignore it until I get home. Then I try to
remember to spray some lube in various places in the saddle. But that's
difficult, because when I'm taking the bike into the house, it never
squeaks to remind me!

My Brooks saddle used to make squeaking noises AND! Back when I lived
at home and we had horses a saddle would occasionally creak :-) Some
neatsfoot oil used to cure that :-)


In real life, crank bearing cups do however 'walk' out,
especially for riders who mash. The effect is precession
which you don't see in a simple static model of a drive train.

"Precession" as in gradual loosening of the bearing race or ??

No one writes better on the subject than Mr Brandt himself.
See section 8i9 he
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/


Cup is pressed forward into the thread, then pressed
backward when the other crank is loaded, pressing into the
thread on the other side. Repeat. A lot. The movement
between engaged threads of a threaded assembly loaded
sideways is small. But that motion adds up.

Since threaded assemblies appear to be one rigid unit, this
motion escaped the analysis of The Ancients. As you know,
common thread engagement is 75% or so. In the rare case
where you run across a 90% engagement assembly, you can
readily feel the difference in your fingers. Those are
impractically expensive and impractical for
assembly/disassembly.

https://www.engineersedge.com/screw_threads_chart.htm

I think the most notable application of this insight is from
the Wright brothers who gave us LH threads on LH pedals.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I do not think that the new Trek T47 is threaded like the old one piece BB's were - from both sides and without any offset at all. My money is that they have drag.

I have pretty much convinced myself that disk brakes ALWAYS drag even though you can't hear it. The difference in average speed over a known course is 2 mph between the disk bike and the rim brake bike.

On 4/27/2020 6:42 PM, wrote:
On Monday, April 13, 2020 at 7:37:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/13/2020 8:57 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 20:40:09 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 4/13/2020 8:06 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 20:36:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/13/2020 6:56 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:10:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, April 13, 2020 at 10:27:24 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
https://www.velonews.com/gear/argona...w-threaded-bb/ There is a new article in Velo News about Trek adopting the standard for some of its bikes including the new Domane.

I had threaded outboard BBs that creaked. It's not like they were perfect, and you have a double interface with the threaded body and the pressed-in bearing, so AFAIK,absolute silence is not a guaranty. But its supposed to be pretty slick. What is old is new again -- except bigger. Like tennis rackets and bike tires. And with Chris King, you know it will be affordable.

-- Jay Beattie.

I will take english threaded outboard BB any time. As long as replacements cost less than 20 euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...racket-p35878/

I don't need bigger bearings and don't care about creaks that happen seldom. Press fit BB are a PIA in more than one way.

Lou

I've always wondered about the "creaking BB"? What is creaking? It
can't be the bearing cups as they are, or should be, screwed into the
threaded housing and tightened; tight! If the bearings are adjusted
correctly they won't creak, or at least a much smaller but similar in
construction wheel bearing doesn't creak, or does it? So what's left?
The BB shaft is bending? The pedal arm moving on a tapered shaft
because it isn't mounted correctly?

I've had two major incidences of "creaking bottom bracket" on my ancient
Cannondale. One was indeed the bottom bracket (a SunTour cartridge unit)
despite it being installed nice and tight. I cured it by wrapping the
threads of the locating cups with teflon tape. I think the explanation
is that the threads are not an interference fit. There must be some tiny
clearance between the male and female (frame) threads, and even if
tight, those parts can wobble under the heavy loads of hard pedaling.
Aluminum bikes are known for that problem.

Not to argue but a properly torqued thread shouldn't move as the
longitudinal tension 'should' keep the 60 degree thread centered.
Shouldn't it. Example: a three jaw chuck mounted on a 15 inch lathe
doesn't move on the threads under the heaviest cutting load. Does it?

The second "creaking bottom bracket" on that bike turned out to instead
be from the saddle. I think the plastic top sometimes rubs against the
saddle rail, or perhaps the rubbing is where the rails plug into the
plastic top. It drove me nuts for quite a while, partly because it was
so intermittent.

When it returns, I try to ignore it until I get home. Then I try to
remember to spray some lube in various places in the saddle. But that's
difficult, because when I'm taking the bike into the house, it never
squeaks to remind me!

My Brooks saddle used to make squeaking noises AND! Back when I lived
at home and we had horses a saddle would occasionally creak :-) Some
neatsfoot oil used to cure that :-)


In real life, crank bearing cups do however 'walk' out,
especially for riders who mash. The effect is precession
which you don't see in a simple static model of a drive train.

"Precession" as in gradual loosening of the bearing race or ??

No one writes better on the subject than Mr Brandt himself.
See section 8i9 he
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/


Cup is pressed forward into the thread, then pressed
backward when the other crank is loaded, pressing into the
thread on the other side. Repeat. A lot. The movement
between engaged threads of a threaded assembly loaded
sideways is small. But that motion adds up.

Since threaded assemblies appear to be one rigid unit, this
motion escaped the analysis of The Ancients. As you know,
common thread engagement is 75% or so. In the rare case
where you run across a 90% engagement assembly, you can
readily feel the difference in your fingers. Those are
impractically expensive and impractical for
assembly/disassembly.

https://www.engineersedge.com/screw_threads_chart.htm

I think the most notable application of this insight is from
the Wright brothers who gave us LH threads on LH pedals.


I do not think that the new Trek T47 is threaded like the old one piece BB's were - from both sides and without any offset at all. My money is that they have drag.

I have pretty much convinced myself that disk brakes ALWAYS drag even though you can't hear it. The difference in average speed over a known course is 2 mph between the disk bike and the rim brake bike.


Yours may but drag it's not at all inherent to the system.
Read your manual and redo them step by step from the page.

IME the worst disc brake setups are from riders who have
maintained quality rim brakes for many years and don't know
what they don't know about disc setup.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971